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Can skiers have some culpability for being hit by others - Page 2

post #31 of 53
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skiswift:
The uphill skier has an absolute responsibility to the skier who is downhill from him/her. The downhill skier can turn, stop, have sex-do anything without having the expectation of being hit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ski

You are correct of course. In law there is no argument. The flip side in real life is why test the law? If the downhill skier acts as you have stated then they are more likely to be cleaned up pretty often.

Who wants to be right in law but maimed in life. In the case of the Colorado incident the innocent party by law is dead. Personally I will do all I can to make sure that I never become a statistic. I want to be alive and innocent not dead and innocent. Further in the argument of absolutes it would be correct to say that I can just walk across a road as a pedestrian and expect to be avoided. Sorry but this would be a ludicrous assumption.

All skiers need to own their responsibility on the slopes, uphill or downhill. Only in this way will the message of looking out for everyone become a reality.

Oz
post #32 of 53
Well my friend Jerry was skiing his line at the right edge of a wooded slope and was not more than four feet away from the edge when he heard "On your right" and as he turned he saw this skier heading at high speed at him with no chance to pass between him and the edge of the trail.

So he stiff-armed him into the woods and reported it to the chairlift attendent at the bottom for him to call for a patrol to pick the guy out from the woods.

He never heard more about it and he doesn't have a bad moment over it either, he said that "On your right" in this situation would mean "Get out of my way".

...Ott
post #33 of 53
Jerry sounds like a responsible guy.
post #34 of 53
Gee Ott, after I read that sentence again, it sounded a bit too inflexible and broad (besides having mediocre grammar). Let me expand it to what I was attempting to say. First four items from the skiers responsibility code:
http://www.nsp.org/Safety/code.htm

1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.

I have no argument with the skier responsibility code, as in 2. the uphill skier is always the one responsible for avoiding the downhill skier. A skier in terrain well over their ability level such that they must zig zag broadly across a slope ought to pay some attention to the way more advanced skiers are skiing down the slope so as not to be obnoxious. This is not a legal issue but just being considerate. Usually what one will see is a skier traversing most of the way across a slope, then stopping or nearly stopping to make some scary turn after which they will traverse back toward the other side. At no point are they usually going fast as they will tend to traverse as safely across such a slope as they can in order to maintain control.

Most such skiers that do this will bother to watch what else is going on as they do this since they realize more skilled skiers go straight down the hill and there is an opportunity for their path to either cause collisions or just getting in someone else's path. The issue I have is that there are a few skiers at times which don't bother to try and be aware of this. When rank novice skier is really afraid they may be too narrowly focused and not aware of much else. I can usually tell when a novice skier is looking or not and avoid them as best I can. It is somewhat more experienced skiers I am mainly complaining about that ought to know better.

This issue might be considered an extension of number 4 above which in my post, I gave an example of someone that started going without bothering to look uphill to see that I was moving down a line several yards to his right. He just started without looking by traversing right into my fall line path and then taking my line. I easily avoided him but it was an inconsiderate move on his part. -dave
post #35 of 53
...getting back to the issue, I would have to yes, skiers can have some culability for being hit by others.

You can't go out with that sailor attitude that "i'm on a starboard tack and therefore have the right-of-way regardless of any situation".

As a competent skier, you should have developed your rear-radar/sixth sense about what's going on ALL around you, not just below. If Pierre is getting hit this many times a year then he is putting to much faith in skiers of lesser ability to follow the code. It may be his right 'legally' to do this, but at some point he's either gonna have to save his random turn patterns to uncrowded conditions, or learn to keep his head up, or be prepared for early retirement from the sport.
post #36 of 53
>>>and therefore have the right-of-way regardless of any situation".<<<

Something I learned early in my Power Squadron education (up to Jr. Navigator):

You never have the right of way THROUGH someone else.

Dave, I ski with those traversers daily and just adjust my line to ski behind them or around them, no problem. It is the hot shots I worry about.

....Ott
post #37 of 53
Thread Starter 
Cheaps:
>>As a competent skier, you should have developed your rear-radar/sixth sense about what's going on ALL around you, not just below. If Pierre is getting hit this many times a year then he is putting to much faith in skiers of lesser ability to follow the code. It may be his right 'legally' to do this, but at some point he's either gonna have to save his random turn patterns to uncrowded conditions, or learn to keep his head up, or be prepared for early retirement from the sport. <<
Most of my random moves are to avoid beginner type skiers below me. The thing that I could do is to cut closer to the beginner skiers and not give them as wide of berth and therefore not vary as much. What do you think.
Your trip sounds tempting.
Ott:
I think it is time to try to post some video or pictures of our slopes on a normal friday night around 5:30 PM
post #38 of 53
While patrolling yesterday, I couldn't help but thinking about this post. Kind of like singing some stupid song in your head all night when you can't sleep, you know? It happens to be Canadian Friendship week at Holiday Valley. Canadian money is accepted at par all week long which is a good deal for them. (pisses the Ohio people off though)and my normal Wednesday and Thursday patrol days were turned into a freakin zoo. The slopes are now filled with retro outfits, the lift lines are scented with the acrid smell of mothballs, retro equipment dateing back to the sixties, bindings with no brakes, not even runnaway straps, more straight skis than one would see in a year, all in one day. ( I got to take a deep breath here and relax) and more people who have no idea on how to conduct themselves on the slopes. Beer cans and empty cigarette packs litered the slope below the lifts, and elsewhere. People skiing without a pass, people skiing on forged stolen passes, people switching jackets with passes on them, ARGGGH!!!!!!

This is friendship?

I saw more near misses, more collisions, and more altercations in the past two days than all of last year. Well, maybe not. But close.

It all comes down to one thing, Ignorance! plain and simple. Every accident sceene yesterday was almost impossible to control. You'd think that with several pairs of crossed skis, two Safety patrollers directing traffic, and two Ski patrollers working on a victim, two snowmobiles with tobbogans attached, that people would not ski through like they were running a slalom course. But, they did. Had an accident on the lower part of the Wall, where we actually had to shut down the whole hill to control the sceene safely.

Guys, it's just stupidity! People need to be educated in slope ettiquette, and safety. Everyone must be responcible for their actions out there. This is a problem now, and will be in the future. Is there a quick fix? No. Shoot, I couldn't even convince grown adults that skiing without brakes or runnay straps on their bindings wasn't safe for them or the rest of the resort. They thought I was just harassing them cause I had nothing to do or was on a "power trip"There is no quick fix for this, and the sport will suffer for it.

Okay, i've cooled down now
post #39 of 53
I think I've got this figured out, because I haven't hit anybody at speed that I can remember, 10+ years.

1. Don't ski greens. You're an expert.
2. Ski faster than 99.99999% of the people on the hill. That way, nobody can overtake you.
3. You need to be more cautious of people that are skiing nearly as fast as you. Give them a wide, wide berth when overtaking as they make direction changes, and their speed gives you more time for you to run into them.
4. Shaped skis hog space - more intermediates are making wide edge to edge of the trail turns at a decent clip. These people are hard to overtake unless you time it well and are going fast. They also make it harder for you to make a quick line change (see below).
5. If you need to slow, don't make a big carve across/perpendicular to the hill. Throw your skis sideways for a moving hockey stop speed check to stay on your line.
6. Don't fly off blind knolls on a crowded trail, DUH!

As far as reading terrain goes, I read it more on a 'macro' level, i.e. what can I plow through at 50 mph and what can I not.

Kevin
post #40 of 53
>>Shaped skis hog space <<

They also hog fun, so make sure and wear a "fun field containment helmet" whenever skiing on 'traditional' skis so that any nearby folks on shaped skis to not suck any of your fun energy away.

Additionally be extra wary of those folks on shaped skis who are also skiing in the fall-line and going as fast (or faster) than you are, their level of fun may be even more threatening to yours - make sure to turn your helmets containment field to *high* when any such skiers are around.

post #41 of 53
I guess the word is here that you can "dead" right. I agree that the downhill skier has the right of way, but self preservation dictates looking up before you stop or quickly change turn patterns. One of my pet peeves is a totally self absorbed skier doing full slope traverses on crowded narrow trails or connectors letting nobody pass them. This is pure inconsideration!
post #42 of 53
Thread Starter 
I am getting the distinct impression even among memebers of this forum that attitudes have been changing about the skiers responsibility code as carving comes to the masses.
The attitude seems to be "I acknowledge the fact that you have the right of way below me but it is rude to ski the slow line fast and not turn your head around 180 degrees breaking your rhythm to see if I am carving my way much faster than you, behind you. You idiot, you can be "dead" right yah know! Get the hell off my slope if yah don't like it yah G$D#%M gapper!"
Carving is sweet and breaking that rhythm to avoid a gapper, seems to be a major anoyance. Should we scrap number 2 of the skiers responsibility code so no one will rely on it.
In 8 out of 10 cases I am hit by an advanced skier skiing the fast line fast from directly behind.
I do look to the side and to the rear when turning but I don't look directly behind me while I am doing reaching short turns, no one does. I would imagine that its almost impossible to pick a spot within my turn radius to pass me because I reach my skis way out to the sides and have a turn cycle of about one turn every second and a half. Very quick edge to edge and highly carved. My turns generally apex to apex are about 10-15 meters with fairly slow downhill speed. Definitely slow line fast not fast line fast.
I would guess that Bob's "Slow line fast" pisses a lot of rippers off. People who ski the fast line fast on crowded slopes seem to me to be more of a problem.
post #43 of 53
Pierre, I wasn't picking on you-sounds like you are predictable in your motions. My main point is that on needs to change their style depending on the size of the crowd-when I'm skiing early morning or on a quiet day I'll ski big sweepers fast with the confidence I'm not going to his someone or be hit myself. When it gets busier, I'll pick a line and ski slower with quicker,shorter turns. My point about being "dead right" is you can have all the right away you want, but you still need to be aware of what other skiers are doing. It may not be fair or right, but it's self preservation.
post #44 of 53
There are those fast advanced skiers that tend to bomb everything. They ought to be experienced enough to be aware some advanced skiers are not like them in the speed they carry or the way they turn. Then there are quite a lot of advanced intermediates that can ski most advanced scopes reasonably but because they have not really developed the ability to make short dynamic turns against the quiet mass of their upper body, they tend to pick up increasing speed such that they either end making rough speed checks or end up having to pull up simply due to the continual muscle resistance. The other issue is what I mentioned in my above post about how some groups of skiers or an individual trying to mimic your form will start skiing behind you. There are many advanced skiers that move fast enough down the fall line that these skiers remain in the rear. However somewhat like Pierre, I am often playing short turning fast dynamic rebound games down a slope and I suspect some of these skiers become surprised that despite what appears to be someone turning like a rabbit that they are not really going that fast. The skier above who decides to follow behind someone needs to pay attention and not make any blanket assumptions as to how that skier may turn at any moment since the freedom to play with the slope randomly from turn to turn as one wishes is essential to this game of freely flowing down. -dave
post #45 of 53
For one skier to call another a gapper etc only supports the individual assumption of superiority and so only adds to the problem of treating others as less than equal. I.e. I ski better than you so YOU should watch out. Sorry I do not agree with that line of thought.

I agree with Dave & JohnyV. Make no assumptions in life or skiing.

Sking the fast line slow is ripping!

Oz

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 04, 2002 04:55 PM: Message edited 2 times, by man from oz ]</font>
post #46 of 53
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lars:
While patrolling yesterday, I couldn't help but thinking about this post. Kind of like singing some stupid song in your head all night when you can't sleep, you know? It happens to be Canadian Friendship week at Holiday Valley. Canadian money is accepted at par all week long which is a good deal for them. (pisses the Ohio people off though)and my normal Wednesday and Thursday patrol days were turned into a freakin zoo. The slopes are now filled with retro outfits, the lift lines are scented with the acrid smell of mothballs, retro equipment dateing back to the sixties, bindings with no brakes, not even runnaway straps, more straight skis than one would see in a year, all in one day. ( I got to take a deep breath here and relax) and more people who have no idea on how to conduct themselves on the slopes. Beer cans and empty cigarette packs litered the slope below the lifts, and elsewhere. People skiing without a pass, people skiing on forged stolen passes, people switching jackets with passes on them, ARGGGH!!!!!!

This is friendship?

I saw more near misses, more collisions, and more altercations in the past two days than all of last year. Well, maybe not. But close.

It all comes down to one thing, Ignorance! plain and simple. Every accident sceene yesterday was almost impossible to control. You'd think that with several pairs of crossed skis, two Safety patrollers directing traffic, and two Ski patrollers working on a victim, two snowmobiles with tobbogans attached, that people would not ski through like they were running a slalom course. But, they did. Had an accident on the lower part of the Wall, where we actually had to shut down the whole hill to control the sceene safely.

Guys, it's just stupidity! People need to be educated in slope ettiquette, and safety. Everyone must be responcible for their actions out there. This is a problem now, and will be in the future. Is there a quick fix? No. Shoot, I couldn't even convince grown adults that skiing without brakes or runnay straps on their bindings wasn't safe for them or the rest of the resort. They thought I was just harassing them cause I had nothing to do or was on a "power trip"There is no quick fix for this, and the sport will suffer for it.

Okay, i've cooled down now
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, here's a rousing endorsement for joining the ski patrol. Gee, where do I sign up?
post #47 of 53
My 2 cents:

I'm an expert skier and I cant remember the last time I skied a Green intentionally for my own enjoyment.

I also never get hit/nor hit people.

Here is where the problem lies with your skiing.


Recently I was teaching my GF how to ski at Killington over New Years (can you imgine a more crowded place?). After spending so much time on the greens with her, I got a real appreciation for the fear, frustration and intimidation that goes along with learning to ski. Beginners lack control, confidence and coordination that leaves them with at best marginal control over their speed and direction...(a few times she was waaaay out of control and had to intentionally bail out)

As an expert on that slope, the best analogy to the conditions would be it was like playing a game of Frogger.

You and every other expert on the greens are asking for trouble, and IMHO, being out-right inconsiderate...

Give the beginners a break and stick more advanced trails and I guarantee you'll find you will not be hit(as often).


Works for me.


-Unmodified
post #48 of 53
Thread Starter 
Unmodified, all of our terrain would be rated green/blue at Killington and would fit in one parking lot. We have 340,000 skier visits per year. About 10 weeks. I don't think you comprehend my situation at all.
Killington is NOT crowded.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 07, 2002 10:35 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #49 of 53
I'll take Killington on Presidents Day Weekend over every weekday night at our hills.

:
post #50 of 53
Unmodified? said "You and every other expert on the greens are asking for trouble, and IMHO, being out-right inconsiderate... Give the beginners a break and stick more advanced trails and I guarantee you'll find you will not be hit(as often)."

I cannot believe you said that! : Pierre eh! is an instructor who has to spend a lot of time on beginner slopes to teach. You should know better than to excuse any skier that is out of control.
post #51 of 53
Unmodified?
I welcome you to the fray on Epicski and have to agree on some points (stick to the advanced trails) and disagree on others (we all can't do this). As instructors, many of us are required to be on the beginners slopes and continue to try and teach proper safety. We really don't have a choice about where we can ski just as you found out while trying to teach someone.

I would prefer to never be on a green slope but quite often it is the only way to the bottom of the hill too. Experts need to ski in control and be considerate among the beginners. We have the ability to avoid and maybe anticipate most movements of the person below us so let's use that skill we have developed to make the whole hill safer and more enjoyable for everyone.

Welcome to Epicski. Good luck with your Foray into teaching a friend how to ski!
post #52 of 53
I fully agree that if an instructor is on a Green, and gets hit while teaching someone how to ski (i.e. "on the job"), the "hitter" is definately in the wrong. But the inital post mentioned nothing of being "on the job".

I still think that experts shouldn't use greens for recreation...I fully understand that the need to take greens to get to lifts...etc..

Anyway, I was just offering my views on getting hit. And I believe that to avoid getting getting hit there are some pretty simple things that you can do while skiing...While technically the other person was "wrong" to hit you, getting hit sucks and if you can do something to avoid it and dont...well???

When I ski I pick a "lane" and run with it...if I want to hit the far side of the trail I look uphill first...I dont make sudden turns that break my rythem or what people who are passing me are expecting.

Thank you for the welcome, this site is pretty kick ass.

-Unmodifed?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 07, 2002 01:53 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Unmodified? ]</font>
post #53 of 53
Thread Starter 
Unmodified you said two things that ring hollow with me.
>>I'm an expert skier and I cant remember the last time I skied a Green intentionally for my own enjoyment.<<
>>You and every other expert on the greens are asking for trouble, and IMHO, being out-right inconsiderate...<<
Those statements just don't cut it for me. I consider it nearly impossible to perfect or maintain expert technique on anything but greens. I believe it to be necessary to slow down to a crawl to do so. I ski greens on a very regular basis for just this purpose. I do not go fast nor do I ski close and buzz begineers. I can ski very dynamic turns very very slowly and I will put what I learn on greens up against the best skiers on tough terrain. I don't consider myself to be inconsiderate in the least and often smile and talk to begineers who are curious.
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