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Moving the core versus moving the feet - Page 3

post #61 of 77
Thread Starter 
Isn't it cool the learning that happens with wedge turns? I never would have thought it, frankly, but having to use independence and release edges as you mention have given me insights into my own movements that have been very helpful...

I think, too, that we can move from "allowing" to "doing" in order to accomplish a different outcome (a re-directing of our CoM, a more rapid initiation, etc.).

Time to tune...
post #62 of 77
Work backwards to find the answer.

What is my goal?

To carve a turn.

How do I do that?

Tip my skis on edge.

What will happen when I tip my skis and start to turn?

Turning forces will emerge, and strive to eject my body from the arc my skis are following.

What do I need to do to prevent that?

Counter those forces my moving my CM (core) to the inside of the arc.

When do I want to do that?

In direct harmony with the appearance and then changing magnitude of the turning forces.

How can I move my CM to the inside of the arc I'm riding?

By using the remaining forces of the prior turn to set the CM in motion, and use the adjustment of the relationship of the pressure under each foot to manage that motion.



Conclusions:

- The turn is the primary goal.

- Movement of the CM (core) facilitates both the needed tipping to produce the turn, and creation of the counter forces needed to maintain balance through the turn.

- Movement of the core is therefor the primary strategy used to accomplish the primary goal.

- Actions of the feet and legs initiate and manage that primary goal achievement strategy (movement of the core).


post #63 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Isn't it cool the learning that happens with wedge turns? I never would have thought it
Yes, Steve, I totally agree. As I've said many times before, the wedge does not get milked for all it's teaching potential.
post #64 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yes, Steve, I totally agree. As I've said many times before, the wedge does not get milked for all it's teaching potential.
Example: If someone thinks that they can really make independent foot and leg movements, show me a smooth, released wedge turn with all ski rotation coming from the legs rotating, not from pushing out the tails of the skis. When I realized what was happening in the wedge, it changed my thinking and my movements. Breakthrough!
post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Example: If someone thinks that they can really make independent foot and leg movements, show me a smooth, released wedge turn with all ski rotation coming from the legs rotating, not from pushing out the tails of the skis. When I realized what was happening in the wedge, it changed my thinking and my movements. Breakthrough!
Now,,, try it with a Waist Steer.

Seriously.
post #66 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Now, try it with a Waist Steer.
You'll have to show me that one...
post #67 of 77
ssh,
This may be a little off topic, but when visualizing and trying to test the chicken and the egg theory in this thread, it reminds me of my theory of why skiing is so attractive to us.

Throw a baby into the air and notice the "gasp" of anxiety then upon their safe return to your comforting arms the "giggle" and desire for you to do it again. I believe this is the essence of the sensation that is so attractive about skiing. Once we have discovered the "Ahhhhhh" of being able to catch ourselves or slow our descents we gain more confidence in throwing ourselves down the hill into a momentary freefall then catch ourselves just enough to let go again and repeat this sensation all the way down the hill.

Bringing this idea back to this threads focus it seems analogous with moving the cm ahead of our feet (aiding acceleration) then the feet moving ahead of the cm (aiding decceleration). A kind of release and catch just like tossing a child into the air. Kinda like bungee jumping a hundred times down the hill then getting back on the chair to do it again.

bud
post #68 of 77
That's beautiful, Bud. I call it the intermittent reinforcement that keeps my casino open, or that little whoopee! in every turn.

(This is a great thread--kudos to the contributors!)
post #69 of 77
I like your analogy nolo, it allows for the occaisional gamble that is lost. Sometimes we crash.
post #70 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
ssh,
This may be a little off topic, but when visualizing and trying to test the chicken and the egg theory in this thread, it reminds me of my theory of why skiing is so attractive to us.

Throw a baby into the air and notice the "gasp" of anxiety then upon their safe return to your comforting arms the "giggle" and desire for you to do it again. I believe this is the essence of the sensation that is so attractive about skiing. Once we have discovered the "Ahhhhhh" of being able to catch ourselves or slow our descents we gain more confidence in throwing ourselves down the hill into a momentary freefall then catch ourselves just enough to let go again and repeat this sensation all the way down the hill.

Bringing this idea back to this threads focus it seems analogous with moving the cm ahead of our feet (aiding acceleration) then the feet moving ahead of the cm (aiding decceleration). A kind of release and catch just like tossing a child into the air. Kinda like bungee jumping a hundred times down the hill then getting back on the chair to do it again.

bud
I really like the ideas you presented in the last paragraph! Of particular interest to me is the fact that the objectives are stated clearly with "body part" specific targets. Additionally it conveys the ideas without all the minute details that distract from the acheivement of the objectives.
Before I get "flamed", let me say that IMO moving the core verses moving the feet suggests only two options. Isolating a joint during a drill is fine but when integrating that new movement into our skiing we need to expand our focus to include simultaneous use of all of our body/joints. By shifting our focus to objectives, we transcend the whole debate about what moves first.
post #71 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Before I get "flamed", let me say that IMO moving the core verses moving the feet suggests only two options. Isolating a joint during a drill is fine but when integrating that new movement into our skiing we need to expand our focus to include simultaneous use of all of our body/joints. By shifting our focus to objectives, we transcend the whole debate about what moves first.
My personal challenge is that I can't hold more than one focus while skiing without starting to try to "think my turns"--which is disasterous... So, I need to think about where my focus is when skiing and when drilling. When drilling, it's my body parts (feet, etc.). When skiing, I am going to focus on moving it to my core and see what happens.
post #72 of 77
Tai Chi has a number of very powerful correlations to skiing. Here is an excellent book to help understands the basic principles of skiing
http://www.movementsofmagic.com/
post #73 of 77
Steve,
I like how Bud described a shifting application of focus. Move the core and move the feet. That is exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post (the whole stair thing). One zone being the primary focus all the time might happen in a corrective prescription phase (a drill) but once we have that correction, it is time to see how well we can blend that into our skiing.
post #74 of 77

Bump because I'm not happy with merely shifting intense point focus.

I was reading a Shinobi-Aruki ninja walking post. Making a squeak with subsequent decollation is a rather more immediate and specific a feedback system than a skier will have.

I get -tired- just thinking about maintaining specific focus (and shifting it) with only the occasional whooppee reward (outside of the corrective prescription phase, of course).

When do we create the new body image that includes CM and feet and head and.. and.. so that we can stop the brutal specificity?
post #75 of 77
Thread Starter 
Don't your boots squeak? I thought I remembered that they did...
post #76 of 77
Really interesting post ssh, I am still contemplating the ramnifications. Sort of like zen and that art of the perfectly angulated turn.

Thinking about the core has got me thinking about turns at high speed from a tuck (you know me and speed). The interesting thing here is from this position you are able to do turns by literally rolling the ball of your foot if you have a fairly responsive ski. In this position, your core stays relatively stable and low over the ski, and the smallest motion can make a big difference.

Obviously if we are talking short radius slalom like turns (and I know you do these very well) the same principle should apply, ie foccusing on the keeping the core centered over your skis. Except in this case, your center of gravity would stay higher, so obviously the amount of relative effort you put into the extremities assumes greater importance. If I'm understanding this correctly, you need to avoid the tendency to over correct on the angulation to obtain the maximum efficiency in your turn. And one way to do this is to focus on the core as you go down the hill.

I'm not sure how you would train for this though. My present regimen tends to focus on strength and cardio, in contrast to the slow walking I'm doing ten minute miles with full extension on my leg swings, when I am not doing stadium steps. Maybe trying some balance beam type exercises? Any thoughts here?
post #77 of 77
Steve,
The whole focus issue seems to be taken too literally here. Let me propose another simple drill that can explain all of this quite easily.

Stand up and get into a static athletic stance. Now move your core (in any direction) until you lose your balance and take a step. The objective of moving the core does not specify a point of origin but instead the "focus" is on acheiving the objective of moving the core. The joints in the legs articulate naturally to maintain contact with the ground. The amount each joint moves depends on how far and which direction we move the core. Notice the contact points with the ground (your feet) don't move.

As long as the core is moving over it's base of support the objective can be moving the core. However, once it moves outside that base, the objective becomes moving the base and re-establishing it below the core. A step is the proof of this new objective overriding the previous objective.

How does this relate to skiing? Well, do the same drill on the snow. The fact that we are already moving across the snow forces us to change perspectives somewhat. We are riding the skis so moving our core is relative to both the ground and the skis. Additionally, the option of moving our feet (and the skis) to re-establish a base of support changes somewhat. However, the basic ideas remain constant.

Which leads us to the conclusion that controlling our skis involve both types of movements and objectives. So IMO to maintain one "focus" or objective, is to ignore the bigger picture and the need for more than one type of movement. Skiing is a symphony of body movements, not a solo.
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