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Best Bump Technique: Backpedaling? - Page 3

post #61 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
That's what I thought when I viewed the video, his ski tips are in the air as he never drives his skis down the back of the bump. Pulling his feet back as he goes over the bump(backpedaling) will cure this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
Phil, look at the position of your feet relative to your hips. this poistion never changes even though you extend and flex your legs "some". Your flexion and extension is very linear, or straight line, so your hips never really catch up to your feet, and the front of your skis are never really engaged. The skis don't get perpendicular to the slope on your extension down the steep side, with your hips over them. You're loosing about 2/3's of the terrain available for speed control and absorption.

Think of it like you want to slow down, and speed up your feet as your body moves smoothly down the hill. This will allow the feet to move back under or move ahead as needed as they get long and short. Like pedaling sort of. Later, RicB.
I posted this video for a couple of reasons, one being there is no "one way" to ski (in this case, bumps). Depending on the bumps is how I will attack them, I understand pushing the tips over the bumpand keeping contact with the snow, these were not the types of bumps for that tecnique. These were more "staircase" type bumps where you drop fron one to the next. If you notice in the last second or so, you see me change direction and you will notice me pushing the tips over, because the bumps dictated that.

You guys say, push the feet back, in a bump class I was in, I was taught to push the hips forward, "hit bottom". The instuctor use the analogy, pretend you have your favorite girl on a counter and you are going at it try to "hit bottom". I am not saying that one way is better than the other, I will try to push my feet back next time I am in the bumps though.
post #62 of 166
I understand Phil. I'm all for getting the hips forward and opening (extending) into the turn, but in bumps and steeps it is quite often easier and more productive to slow down the feet, rather than speed up the hips. A lot more mass in the hips than the feet and starting and stoping the hips and core interupts the flow of Com down the hill and In my opinion wastes some energy.

It is interesting you used the stair analogyPhil. I think some one else used it too, and I was just out working and thinking about the two opposing positions between Dan and Bob and how there might be some middle ground and maybe a third way to slow down. Anyway I was thinking of the stair analogy and suddenly it occured to me that it should be possible to create some speed control by utilizing the speed difference between the feet and the core utilizing our flexion. Just like runnng fast but smoothly down a set of stairs. On a stairway our feet stop, so it is a no brainer to understand how this works. But in bumps though, maybe we can utilize the same mechanism and control our speed by timing the flexing to corespond with the "slowing down" phase of the feet, using rate and intensity of the flex to adjust speed.

So Dan and Bob, what do you think? Later, RicB.
post #63 of 166
Works for me, Ric. I love the image of descending smoothly down a flight of stairs, where the body moves at a more-or-less constant speed, but the feet move quickly from one step to the next, then pause on the step while the body catches up, then moves past.

I also like the image of a "Slinky" going down steps. Its "feet" flip quickly to the next step, then stop there, but the mass of the Slinky never stops moving. (If anyone doesn't know what a Slinky is, or hasn't seen one do this, well, it's hard to explain. Find one, or stick with the image of a person flowing smoothly down stairs.)

Either way, it is exactly what you can see happening in the stick figure illustration and animation, as well as the bump skier montage. The body (center of mass) moves at a constant rate down the hill, while the feet move quickly beneath it through the trough (C,D, and E in the stick figure illustration). Then the feet slow down on top of the bump, "waiting" for the body to catch up (F, G) and pass (H) them. From the skier's perspective, at least from mine, it feels like I'm pushing my feet forward and ahead of me up the bump, then pulling them back underneath me on top.

And it is this fore-aft movement of the feet beneath the hips (or of the hips above the feet, if you prefer that perspective), combined with the long-short flexion and extension movements of the legs, that results in the circular "backpedal" motion. I'm assuming that this is obvious, but that circular motion is relative to the hips, not to the hill. From the mountain's perspective, the feet simply move alternately faster and slower.

I hope that Dan will speak for himself, but I suspect that he would actually agree that this is what happens--whether or not it is what he focuses on in his skiing or teaching. What he described simply as "extending your legs and forcing your skis (tips first) down into the trough" requires the same motion, even if it does not describe it in detail. You cannot tip your ski tips down without pulling your feet back behind you. And even if you could, you'll lose balance quickly if you "extend your . . . skis down into the trough" without first making sure that you're ahead of them.

I believe that a lot of what may appear to be a difference of opinion is really more just a difference of perspective. We have often discussed the chasm of difference between describing what happens in good skiing and teaching someone to make the same movements. A big part of effective instruction involves understanding the technical details thoroughly, and then "translating" that understanding into a lesson plan that helps students succeed as quickly, effectively, and simply as possible.

Best regards,
Bob
post #64 of 166
I'll add one thing in support of Dan's description, quoted in my previous post. He describes "forcing" your feet down into the trough, and that is worth some emphasis! In big bumps, especially at speed, this is not just a casual, half-hearted movement--it must be vigorous, quick, and forceful. It's easy to have a bump compress your legs beneath you, but you must actively, powerfully, and intentionally extend again into the trough to quickly "recock" your legs in preparation for the next big bump. (See B, C, and D in the illustration in post #56 above.) It happens very fast sometimes, especially in bumps that are steep and "cliffed out" on the downhill side. It's common to suffer from what I call "pile driver syndrome"--where the bump compresses you, then you don't fully re-extend and the next bump compresses you a little more, then more, and more, until just your hat remains sticking up out of the snow. That's usually followed by one big bump that blows you completely apart into the air!

As in a car, shocks can't work if they're already compressed. Extend! You can manage low speeds, and very small bumps, simply by staying relaxed and loose and "passively" absorbing the bumps with "soft" legs. But real bumps require very active absorption movements. The French word is "avalement," which means "to swallow." Pull your feet up, then EXTEND into the trough. EXTEND!

This focus does not conflict with--and for smooth skiing must coincide with--the fore-aft movements that produce the outcome of "backpedaling." "Extend" does not fully describe the complexity of the movement. But it is certainly a valid and simple focus that can transform some people's bump skiing. When I feel that I'm getting thrown around in the bumps, I can usually trace it to being too lazy or too relaxed, and not extending vigorously enough. EXTEND!

Best regards,
Bob
post #65 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
It's common to suffer from what I call "pile driver syndrome"--where the bump compresses you, then you don't fully re-extend and the next bump compresses you a little more, then more, and more, until just your hat remains sticking up out of the snow.
*cleaning Pepsi from monitor* That is an awesome image!
post #66 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Hi Bob,

Your animations and your clarity in discussion is enviable!

When you talk about your balance point being slightly ahead of your heel and that more often than not your pressure is under your heel, would you say this is caused by dorsi flexing to simultaneously push down on your heel while pressing the shin into the tongue or more accurately, pulling up on your toes?

I know that when I was skiing very frequently the band of muscles along my shin (? sorry can't remember their name) were very developed. because of this kind of motion. In this kind of action there is pressure on the shin and tongue but not on the ball of the foot. This is where it looks like there may be some confusion? Should there be pressure on the ball of the foot and tongue/shin simultaneously problems will ensue vs. the shin and the heel.

bud
well stated bud.

your post brings to mind the "other" bob barnes, a former demo team member, ssd at winter park, and one of the best bumpers i have ever seen, who states that "F.A.T." is the key to good bump skiing. F.A.T. stands for functional ankle tension and is created via dorsi-flexion.

barnsey is pure butta in bumps.

when i dorsi-flex well i feel the muscle you are mentioning.....the tibialis anterior.....sorry anatomy and kinesiology were my favorite subjects in school.

i cringe when i hear coaches telling folks to "get forward" or talk about the importance of being "on the front of the boot".

how about "get balanced" or "get centered". what is, imho, the best way to un-balance a skier? tell them to get forward or get onto the tongues of their boots.

todd metz is the bump skier i mentioned who maintains good skiing is based upon a balance point at, as he terms it, the "forebody of the calcaneous".

i start every bump lesson by asking folks to locate their calc-anus.
post #67 of 166
Rustyyyyyyyyyy! I agree about the front of the boot thing. If you really wanna screw up a bumper, tell him/her to really squish their shins into the front of the boot. Then watch the "double-E" hijinx begin! (I get my malicious streak from someone you know, eh!)

Bumps are more about synchronizing movements than anything else. If a piece is missing (like the ankle, which you REMOVE from the equation by killing the boot tongue), you can watch the 12-year-old to your right kick your A## all day long there, Pumpkin.


Metzy can ski.
Spag
post #68 of 166
Hey Rusty Guy, thanks! that's the muscle I was reffering to. I looked it up in my anatomy coloring book!

Calc-anus??? sounds like a "smart-*&@$" ....I'll look it up..

sorry


Great explanations Bob! if you eve write a book, I will buy it!

b
post #69 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Rustyyyyyyyyyy! I agree about the front of the boot thing. If you really wanna screw up a bumper, tell him/her to really squish their shins into the front of the boot. Then watch the "double-E" hijinx begin! (I get my malicious streak from someone you know, eh!)

Metzy can ski.
Spag
both metz's can ski.

and the person you reference isn't malicious.....merely ascerbic eh!
post #70 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post

Rustyyyyyyyyyy! I agree about the front of the boot thing. If you really wanna screw up a bumper, tell him/her to really squish their shins into the front of the boot. Then watch the "double-E" hijinx begin! (I get my malicious streak from someone you know, eh!)
.


Metzy can ski.
Spag
But as I mentioned before, I find it hard to turn without some subtle pressure on the boot. When the foot is dorsiflexed, pressure is placed on the front of the boot. Right?

Also, I too like 'get centered'. But 'get forward' is also important (?) in that many skiers shy away from standing in line with the hill. Too many skiers lean back pushing their feet ahead and making it difficult to get centered.

Yes, no - maybe.
post #71 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
But as I mentioned before, I find it hard to turn without some subtle pressure on the boot. When the foot is dorsiflexed, pressure is placed on the front of the boot. Right?

Also, I too like 'get centered'. But 'get forward' is also important (?) in that many skiers shy away from standing in line with the hill. Too many skiers lean back pushing their feet ahead and making it difficult to get centered.

Yes, no - maybe.
i ask students to think of drawing the boot to the shin via dorsiflexion as opposed to driving the shin forward into the boot. dangle from a chair, and dorsiflex. it pulls the ski tip up and the tongue toward the leg. the difference is what the knee joint does.

in terms of "standing in line" think vertical thighs as opposed to horizontal thighs. or think in terms of keeping your femur perpendicular to the snow.

bob barnes doesn't like the idea of vertical thighs. if you look at the animation they do not remain vertical. the tibia does. "feeling" as though my goal is to keep my thighs vertical helps me to keep me centered.

vertical thighs is a touchy feely thing for me. i'm a real sensitive guy
post #72 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy View Post

as opposed to driving the shin forward into the boot. dangle from a chair, and dorsiflex.
i have had fights with my boots in the past. Good way to wreck your skiing. Dorsiflex helps, as does getting your boots under your hips. It's important for me to stay centered yet 'forward' or down the hill. Leaning back and pressuring the tips = big trouble.
post #73 of 166
Paul. The problem with maintaining forward pressure on the boot tongue is that it actually restricts freedom in the ankle joint. Once you've pushed into that boot, you've no more dorsiflexion left for those myriad instances when you will need it (in the bumps). There has been discussion about "cuff neutral", where the column of the tib/fib will feel the boot cuff all the the way around. It's unlikely, with all the getting bounced around, that you can accomplish cuff neutral all the way through a bump line, but it's what I strive for. Once the ankles are free to articulate, even just slightly, the joints above will start to cooperate as well.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to get used to either, but once you're there, you'll have much more range of motion.

Just think of Revenge of the Nerds II... "To truly hack a loogie, the phlegm must not come only from the throat. It must also come from the soul."

Spag
post #74 of 166
Spag, this gets us back to a topic in another thread: how many of us are actually in "neutral" when we're in "cuff neutral?" In other words, how closely do our boots fit our physiology to give us a good starting point for this balance recovery movements? I just think a lot of folks need some help with that... and that when they don't have it, they will find more comfort using the skis as levers by getting forward or rearward to find purchase.

That said, once truly neutral in our boots, cuff neutral is what helps us stay most closely in balance as we link our recentering experiences...
post #75 of 166
Oh. And yes. Dorsiflexion will result in shin/cuff contact. When I'm in the bumps, I don't FLEX my ankles. I let them GET flexed. Every time your ski tips climb a bump, your ankles will flex if you are centered. If you are too far forward (beyond centered) it's likely that the only place you have left to bend is the hips. Momentum sometimes will send the torso over the hips and the knees won't even bend! OUCH! It's kind of a passive philosophy, but it allows me to be aggressive elsewhere because I'm not worrying about my feet. (HANDS! HANDS! HANDS!)

Spag
post #76 of 166
Ssh. Good point. That's why I think my boots are the most important pieces of gear. Get a good fit folks!
post #77 of 166
Yeah, it's not hard to flex in the bumps, but getting long,,,,that's the problem with most of us. Bob's "pile driver syndrome". Doesn't matter what line I choose to ski in the bumps, I will have to extend before I flex.

Along these lines what tasks or focuses does everyone use to help themselves and their students get long while teaching "in" the bumps? Later, RicB.
post #78 of 166
Quote:
how many of us are actually in "neutral" when we're in "cuff neutral?" In other words, how closely do our boots fit our physiology to give us a good starting point
Another very good question, Steve! All this "cuff neutral" stuff, flexion-extension of the legs (and whole body), and fore-aft movements of the feet that are so critical to good skiing--in and out of the bumps--relies on boots that are optimally set up. Unfortunately, optimal boot setup is rare. Not everyone has the time, money, or inclination to seek out someone like Bud Heishman or Jeff Bergeron or Jim Lindsay (three top bootfitters who post here regularly) for a perfect custom fit and setup.

I suspect that many who feel the need to press firmly on their boot tongues--through strong dorsiflexion or otherwise--have boots that fit too loosely in the cuffs. My boots (Nordica Doberman World Cup 150's) are very stiff, especially for my light frame, and I like the cuffs buckled snugly around my shins. When I'm "cuff neutral" I can feel both the front and the back of the boots, and because they're stiff, the cuffs serve as powerful kinesthetic reference points. I can feel the slightest variation, the slightest fore-aft imbalance, and I can react quickly to make adjustments.

Because there is so little room for movement there, the "net forward angle" of my boot cuffs (combination of cuff angle, delta [boot sole] angle, and, to some extent, internal ramp angle) is critical. The diagram we've already discussed shows why--here it is again:



When boots are too big, especially in the cuffs, it's common to feel the need to press up against the tongues--or the backs, typical of small kids--in an effort to gain some stability and some sensory feedback. Like I said, I rely on the boot cuffs as reference points, important kinesthetic feedback as to my position and movements. If my boots weren't "right there," pressing on me, I'd feel the need to press on them. The same is true with softer boots--you've got to "lean on 'em" harder before they give you the same feedback.

So there's a pattern emerging here. Many who advocate forward cuff pressure--in bumps or out--also like softer boots. They need them! And many who rely on forward pressure should have their boots looked at--too soft, too loose, or improperly aligned fore and aft. (Again beware--this is not usually a "do-it-yourself" adjustment. Simply cranking the cuffs forward affects the ankle joint, which may affect the pronation/supination function of the foot, causing all sorts of ill effects from edging problems to knee pain. It's complicated. Talk to Bud!)

On a side note, please don't get me wrong--boots can be too stiff and too tight, too. There must be some "give," both to smooth out the quick little vibrations and terrain irregularities, and to forgive inevitable errors. Believe me, when I screw up in the Dobermans--too much tongue pressure (imbalance), combined with inaccurate movements that cause the bump to push back on the boots--I don't just get pushed back a little, I get hammered! And, of course, the stiffer and snugger the boots, the more critical the fore-aft setup. I would never recommend going to the average rental shop and renting a pair of off-the-shelf very high performance boots. Until those boots get personalized for you, they'll be awful, and you'd be better off in a pair of poorly set up but soft and forgiving "standard" rental boots.

Best regards,
Bob
post #79 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
The problem with maintaining forward pressure on the boot tongue is that it actually restricts freedom in the ankle joint. Once you've pushed into that boot, you've no more dorsiflexion left for those myriad instances when you will need it (in the bumps). There has been discussion about "cuff neutral", where the column of the tib/fib will feel the boot cuff all the the way around. It's unlikely, with all the getting bounced around, that you can accomplish cuff neutral all the way through a bump line, but it's what I strive for. Once the ankles are free to articulate, even just slightly, the joints above will start to cooperate as well.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to get used to either, but once you're there, you'll have much more range of motion.

Spag
I think there’s another aspect; managing your full range for both absorption/extension and fore/aft.

Just as you crest the bump, you’re at the maximum end of the range in the absorption. Those who advocate (perhaps progressive) forward tongue/shin pressure as you approach the crest want to apply more force onto the snow for more friction to slow down the feet. Then drive the hips foward to get the CM over the feet. Slowing down the feet is traded off at the expense of maxing out on the fore/aft range as you crest the bump.

I could be wrong; those who advocate forward pressure may not mean constant forward pressure through out the bump line.
post #80 of 166
Jack--you've put your finger on what may be the crux of the issue here.

The need to drive the ski tips down as we extend our legs down the back (downhill) side of the bump seems undisputed here. But driving the tips down by pressing down on the balls of the feet pushes your body (CM) back--which would cause your feet to shoot ahead and leave you behind.

The other way to tip the tips down is to pull your feet back at the top of the bump--which again describes the movement of the backpedaling concept. It really comes down to balance, which I'll abbreviate as the relationship of your Center of Mass and your feet. If you're in balance, your skis will follow the contours of the bumps without any further need to drive the tips down. Your CM passes over your feet at the top of the bump (ie. you pull your feet back), and the skis tip down. Simple!

The advice to maintain pressure on the boot tongues at this moment can be effective. Just pressing down on the balls of the feet pushes you back away from your boot tongues, as I noted. Maintaining pressure on the tongues as the skis tip down requires the CM to move forward in relation to the feet, which ensures the necessary balancing movements (and the backpedaling!).

My only tweak to this advice remains my suggestion to substitute "contact" for "pressure." Get off the boot tongues, but remain "in touch" with them. If you don't push on them, they won't push back!

Best regards,
Bob
post #81 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Spag, this gets us back to a topic in another thread: how many of us are actually in "neutral" when we're in "cuff neutral?" In other words, how closely do our boots fit our physiology to give us a good starting point for this balance recovery movements? I just think a lot of folks need some help with that... and that when they don't have it, they will find more comfort using the skis as levers by getting forward or rearward to find purchase.

That said, once truly neutral in our boots, cuff neutral is what helps us stay most closely in balance as we link our recentering experiences...
Shh,
You are sounding more like a level III instructor every day!! This supports what BB and I and others have said in this thread. The neutral stance a boot dictates, the "home base" is a static position that provides us the most efficient position from which to make balancing movements and movements to transfer the disired inpulses to our skis. If this static position is less than ideal then we must use compensatory positions and movements to maintain balance before we can even think about turning the skis efficiently!

This may be evidenced by some here commenting on their needs to keep tongue pressure all the time in order to stay balanced. This is just one example that would have me look at the fore/aft alignment in their boots. With some adjustments a comfortable static position can be found and balancing all of a sudden becomes easier and more natural!

This and other threads being discussed these last couple weeks are creating a good awareness of this fact and I think supported very well by the more astute posters.

Steve, if your skiing is as good as your understanding of the topics you are posting on here, I think you are about ready for that level III test! These forums are certainly great tools for learning the nuances of skiing.

b
post #82 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
The need to drive the ski tips down as we extend our legs down the back (downhill) side of the bump seems undisputed here. But driving the tips down by pressing down on the balls of the feet pushes your body (CM) back--which would cause your feet to shoot ahead and leave you behind.

The other way to tip the tips down is to pull your feet back at the top of the bump--which again describes the movement of the backpedaling concept. It really comes down to balance, which I'll abbreviate as the relationship of your Center of Mass and your feet. If you're in balance, your skis will follow the contours of the bumps without any further need to drive the tips down. Your CM passes over your feet at the top of the bump (ie. you pull your feet back), and the skis tip down. Simple!

The advice to maintain pressure on the boot tongues at this moment can be effective. Just pressing down on the balls of the feet pushes you back away from your boot tongues, as I noted. Maintaining pressure on the tongues as the skis tip down requires the CM to move forward in relation to the feet, which ensures the necessary balancing movements (and the backpedaling!).

My only tweak to this advice remains my suggestion to substitute "contact" for "pressure." Get off the boot tongues, but remain "in touch" with them. If you don't push on them, they won't push back!

Best regards,
Bob
Bob, as I was reading this, it occurred to me that there is a cause/effect conundrum here, if we're not careful about how we think about it. Skiers may feel that "forward pressure" means that they are pushing the skis down into the trough, but they may actually be extending in the wrong direction. To extend properly into the trough, I'm actually extending perpendicular to the downhill side of the bump I just crested, right? Error enters into it if I extent perpendicular to the crest (which is almost "as the trees grow" in many cases), effectively pressuring the tails and lifting the tips.
post #83 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Because there is so little room for movement there, the "net forward angle" of my boot cuffs (combination of cuff angle, delta [boot sole] angle, and, to some extent, internal ramp angle) is critical. The diagram we've already discussed shows why--here it is again:

Bob, I can imagine an expansion of that diagram that might be really interesting... What would each of those stickmen look like trying to backpedal in bumps? Furthermore, what would their bodies be doing if they were guiding the skis properly?

I bet that combination of images would suddenly "pop" a lot of insight for folks, since I suspect that you'd see the common "errors" of bump skiing very clearly... I wish I knew how to do that kind of thing!
post #84 of 166

Dorkiflex chimes in again

Some of this has appeared before. My own rather poorly stated effort appears as post #22 in this thread. (There he goes, beating his own drum again!: )

This is a sport of movement. Just because you don't pressure the tongue of your boots constantly doesn't mean you don't ever touch them. A gentle touch on the handlebars of your bicycle works better than heavy, rigid pressure.

It is possible to ski bumps without the backpedal, but it's much harder. It requires much more muscle because you will be behind your feet at transition, and your quads will have to work just to hold you up. You'll feel rushed and/or late for every turn. It will seem like the necessary quickness is almost impossible.

An interesting exercise: slow it down. This is a Bob Barnes the Younger (SSD at WP) exercise. Almost pivot slip down the bump run, with skis very flat, absorbing, pulling the feet back (dorsiflexing) as you approach the top of the bump or bridge, flatten still more to release, let the tips drop down, and kind of ooze down over the bump with lots of gravity induced (as opposed to muscle induced) schmear. It's easier to get the timing right when you're just oozing down the hill. When the backpedal happens, the turns and speed control will start to be a lot easier.

This requires less edge, not more, yet pressure control and the resulting speed control will be exquisite. It does require rotary, but it's controlled rotary. Let the turn take some time rather than abruptly twisting the skis to get them across the fall line. Let the skis smear down the sides of the bumps. Absorb, extend, keep pressure on the snow. Feel your weight on the snow on the sides and downhill faces of the bumps. No pops, no air, no "getting light." Be heavy but progressive and smooth.

The secret to doing it, of course, is the backpedal. Pull your feet back or allow your hips to come forward so that you're very much over your feet as you drop down the side or face of the bump. You can extend, and you have a bit of contact with the tongue of the boot, so you have precise control.

Also, consider this. Coming over the top of a bump, or other high point, what will the skis and your feet tend to do as they start down the other side? They accelerate, of course. If you haven't actively moved over them (i.e., you're still a bit behind), you'll be really behind very shortly. This tends to be aggravated by the psychological reaction many people have when they look down the steep downhill side of a bump. All of this makes the next absorption, turn initiation, whatever, much more difficult than it would be if you were over your feet. Been there, done that. Again and again.

So, backpedal. Call it something else, if you wish. Think about dorsiflexing or moving the hips forward over high spots. Whatever works for you.
post #85 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post



And here's a photomontage of a top level competitor (I'm afraid I don't know who it is) showing the same movements:



This circular movement pattern of the feet beneath the hips is critically important for smooth bump skiing. And it's highly relevant to the current discussion in the thread Moguls/bumps, regarding "carving" down the back side of the bumps. Obviously, whether you want your skis to carve or to brake, both require your ability to get some pressure on them.

One thing that the animation clearly shows is the importance of fore-aft movements in addition to up-down movements to manage pressure in bumps (and out of them, for that matter). The up and down movements are obvious, and you hear a lot of people describing "feet [or knees] like pistons," but that's not actually a very good image. Visualize feet moving in circles, like pedaling a bicycle (where it's also a mistake to think of just "up and down"). If that's a new thought, it will transform your mogul skiing!

As I mentioned in my PM, it is important to keep pressure OFF the boot tongues in order to make this movement. That's another violation of the "conventional wisdom," I know, but it's key!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
This is the best visual I have ever seen SHH!
post #86 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
This is the best visual I have ever seen ssh!
Agreed, but...

Think about that backpedal animation combined with the different forward lean angles of that static table! You'd see either what the body has to do to keep the skis on the right path when your boots aren't right, or what the skis do when you're moving correctly but the boots aren't right. In other words, compared to that "just right" animation, you'd see the effect of boots on skis and path through the moguls.

Know what I mean?
post #87 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
The advice to maintain pressure on the boot tongues at this moment can be effective. Just pressing down on the balls of the feet pushes you back away from your boot tongues, as I noted. Maintaining pressure on the tongues as the skis tip down requires the CM to move forward in relation to the feet, which ensures the necessary balancing movements (and the backpedaling!).
Exactly! Maintaining tongue pressure after cresting the bump helps in moving the CM forward. The combination of this along with slowing down the feet from the front side makes the hip drive effortless (at least to me). Once some one gets this in their “muscle memory”, pulling in the feet as you crest may seem foreign or not right.

You gotta to show some empathy to the guys with bald shins.
post #88 of 166
Quote:
Bob, I can imagine an expansion of that diagram that might be really interesting... What would each of those stickmen look like trying to backpedal in bumps?
That would be illustrative, Steve! I don't know if I could do a continuous animation of a skier with those problems, because a skier like that would have a very hard time keeping a continuous rhythm. The skier with boots too upright, for example, gets thrown back every time he/she flexes deeply, as at the top of the bump. Perhaps simple illustration sequence. . . .

I agree--you could definitely show the problems caused by poor boot setup or poor movements.

Hey JHCooley--(nice post, by the way)--What makes you think he's "the younger"?

He may be, actually, but we're pretty close in age, I think.

Best regards,
Bob
post #89 of 166
SHH,

OH, OH, yes,now I see what you mean!

I think Bob should get right on that! It would be a great tool for convincing people on the benefits of properly aligned boots. Hey Bob are you listening??

Watching that animation again, I just now noticed even the neck is involved in the animation. The guy does have a very stiff back though, he must be over 50?

jhcooley, your comments are right on! thanks.

b
post #90 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
That would be illustrative, Steve! I don't know if I could do a continuous animation of a skier with those problems, because a skier like that would have a very hard time keeping a continuous rhythm. The skier with boots too upright, for example, gets thrown back every time he/she flexes deeply, as at the top of the bump. Perhaps simple illustration sequence. . . .

I agree--you could definitely show the problems caused by poor boot setup or poor movements.
I was thinking one with the body moving like it should and showing where the skis are, one with the skis moving like they need to and seeing where the body is. Would be interesting... You've got three of the necessary images in that table for each option... Wouldn't take that much more work, would it...?
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