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Can MA analysis be over done? - Page 2

post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski_nerd13 View Post
Really, it all has to do with pacing information. One of the things we nerds learn is that no matter how applicable information may be, perhaps now is not the time to say anything.
Reminds me of a comment made about the best musicians: they know when not to play.
post #32 of 47
i think I said that????

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
Roundturns... I'd say that it is not a problem of the movement analysis being over done.... but often a case of what is handed to the student is overdone...
:
post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
i think I said that????


:
I think my point was different because it sounded like you said that you like your information in a nutshell. My point was "don't give too many nutshells".

So you see it's totally different!!!!!

(but not really)



-nerd
post #34 of 47
nah - I prefer ONE focus at a time.... I'm a bit like a certain winnie the pooh... a bear of very little brain....

I can really only focus on one thing at a time... so I prefer that... I am happy to have a complex talk on the chair etc (ie when I don't have to ski it) .... but when you want me to ski I need pretty precise(or is it definite.. hmmm) focus and I want just that ONE thing to focus on...

Comes from fencing days maybe... we were taught to focus really hard on what defence we wanted to do when the opponent attacked.... then "push it away" once preparing to fence
The focused command stays in the brain and is done when the right cue is found but the brain is allowed to be "free running" to look for oportunity to attack (ie it is left free to respond to input)

I kind of do the fencing thing if I can when i ski. It is easiest to ski when I can do it. I simply "THINK HARD" on my focus.... then let go of it and atart skiing.... it does stay in the brain but the body performs it better if you try NOT to let the thinking part do the moving...
post #35 of 47

MA alone mat not be enough.....

I'd suggest considering that movement analysis by itself is too myopic a view of a skier. I'd offer that there should be some 'thought analysis' in the equation as well.

How a skier moves is not relative unless you also know how they think they are moving as well.

Seeing what the movements are without understanding the underlying factors that represent why they are taking place is only analyzing a small part of the whole skier. End effects can be a result of lack of movement skill or lack of understanding of how to move, or both.

Once a skier goes from 'just do it' without care for the result and starts thinking about their skiing (from child to adult), those thoughts can benefit from some training. Frequently a mere misconception (thought) can preclude effective application of otherwise existing skills. Thoughts produce the movements, and then the effect produces thoughts about them (vicious cycle). So we may need to start with a few simple effective thoughts before we can change to being able to produce more effective movements.

What a skier is specifically wants to do (motivation) and is trying to do (intent or purpose) and what their thought process is for how to move to accomplish that purpose (understanding), represents the collective 'cause' of what the movements create as an 'effect'.

I want communicate with the skier so I understand what they are trying to do and why, and how they think they should be moving to do it. Only then can my analysis of the effect have a chance of producing really valuable information to discuss with them about the cause. Without that information the movements are little more than abstract symptoms of unknown origins.
post #36 of 47
Thread Starter 
Arcmeister I think you just articulated so well why instruction whether it be skiing or even golf doesn't yield the desired results. Unless the instructor understands the basis for the movements being made by the student , and the student can expalin what they are trying to do and why, you're guessing at best as to how you can help this person. Abstract symptoms of unknown origins sums this up better than anything I have ever come across. I don't know how many times at the driving range a couple of the guys who teach there will come over and work with me and I rarely get anything out of it. How can they correct a movement pattern that I have if they don't understand why I'm swinging that way!
post #37 of 47
It's not so bleak as all that..... quite often the student is unaware that they are doing it one way, and beliving another thing is happening (eg. "But I am flexing!". Since realization is half the cure, the student is on the right path if the instructor can simply get the student to sense their movement pattern. Even better if they can be guided to sensing the correct pattern.

So, being the devils advocate: barring compensatory movements for equipment issues or injury why do we care about the skiers reasons?
post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
So, being the devils advocate: barring compensatory movements for equipment issues or injury why do we care about the skiers reasons?
some instructors don't... some will just skate away when the student suggests they have no idea what they were just told.... even worse some try to shed students that don't "fit" the instructors ideas.. rather than understand the student and their motivations... it is easier to treat the student like crap and get rid of them...

I know of one instructor told a friend of mine on her first lesson "you are the worst student I have ever taught"... she promptly left the lesson... vows she will never ski again because she is obviously not cut out for it... and so her family (who loved skiing) all get a beach holiday....

Rude and arrogant instructors get no respect from me... I don't care what... it is about teaching the STUDENT to ski... not teaching skiing to some android...
post #39 of 47
disski,

I am not advocating carelessness or callousness.

My "devil's advocate" remark is not intended to be insensitive, nor do I operate that way.

Just asking why should we not have the motto "Just do it!" ? I mean isn't getting the movements into the student what it's all about?
post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
disski,

I am not advocating carelessness or callousness.

My "devil's advocate" remark is not intended to be insensitive, nor do I operate that way.

Just asking why should we not have the motto "Just do it!" ? I mean isn't getting the movements into the student what it's all about?
I never thought you would operate that way.... just noting that some people do so....
post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski View Post
.. it is about teaching the STUDENT to ski... not teaching skiing to some android...

yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
...

Just asking why should we not have the motto "Just do it!" ? I mean isn't getting the movements into the student what it's all about?
beg to differ. I believe the context of the abbreviated quote of disski's post says it all. I believe the idea is getting the student to learn the skill.
post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
I believe the idea is getting the student to learn the skill.
Is that the primary goal?
post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Is that the primary goal?
actually, my primary goal is giving the student what they want. Blame it on teaching at the school that started GCT.
post #44 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
actually, my primary goal is giving the student what they want. Blame it on teaching at the school that started GCT.
Hmmm...
We might suggest that what the student wants might have an effect on your primary goal for a particular lesson. If what the student wants is unrealistic, is hazardous or will tend to create high effort deadend techniques, I suspect that you redirect by addressing understanding or motivational needs so that you can ultimately give them something useful that moves them toward what they want. What you give them will be related to what they want (and you make that relationship clear, we are sure - keep facilitating those understanding and motivational needs), but it might not be the magic potion the student was hoping for.

It may call for detailed MA (we love that ski geek stuff) or it may not. I believe that motivation, understanding and movement tend to have something of a circular relationship or feedback loop going, so we don't always start with movement - or motivation or understanding. Any one of the three can enhance the other two. An unmet need in any one of the three can interfere with the other two.
post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
actually, my primary goal is giving the student what they want. Blame it on teaching at the school that started GCT.
but ORIGINALLY I certainly did not WANT to ski parallel... or faster... or off-piste (in fact the last 2 I really had some aversion to doing what I saw them as being and requiring)...

My instructors helped instill the want...

so now you are in a quandry... - Did they do badly?
post #46 of 47
before I answer that, I have a question: What did you want before you learned to

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ski parallel... or faster... or off-piste (in fact the last 2 I really had some aversion to doing what I saw them as being and requiring)...
Actually, I think this is OT. Could I have your permission to quote the post above by you in a new thread about Guest Centered Teaching or GCT?
post #47 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
before I answer that, I have a question: What did you want before you learned to



Actually, I think this is OT. Could I have your permission to quote the post above by you in a new thread about Guest Centered Teaching or GCT?

I simply wanted to be in control... to not feel I was going to die any minute Don't laugh it is true... I am sure I spent weeks refusing to let go of the instructor.... I had able bodied friends with much better coordination who went skiing and came back in a cast.... I was quite sure that for me skiing=injury was a fact! I wanted to try to ensure that the injury was minimal... Then I could happily say "look I cannot do this either" and walk away... Content I had tried this stuff ... OR if I was really lucky and found a good teacher(not a good skier) I might learn to balance well enough to be in control a little so I could go "bushwalking on skis" with my friends (back country guides... they thought the skinny skis a bit tough for my first foray into skiing and sent me off for alpine lessons)

Go ahead and quote away..
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