New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dobermann Deformation

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I just brought home a new pair of Pro 130's. I love the fit and flex but have noticed something when flexing the boot. When flexing, the lower shell flattens out and the pivot points on the ankle bulge out. I could understand if this were to occur at the end of the flex range but it starts very early in and deforms progressively through the range. Any ideas here? Thanks for any help.
post #2 of 21
Without seeing you flexing the boot it is difficult to say if the boot has ap roblem or not (most likely not).

The Dobermann should be a zero preload boot. This means that the lower strap on the upper rests/rubs on the instep area of the lower shell. The lower strap should rest on the instep even when you are not flexing the boot. This makes the boot very responsive and gives snow feel.

When you are flexing the boot, you are applying pressure progressively on the instep and this is why the lower shell deforms.

My boot is a zero preload boot, too. The lower strap rests on the instep all the time, even when i am not flexing the boot. As a result, the lower shell deforms as soon as i start flexing the boot, although it is visible at the end of the flex range. Lower shell deformation is more visible when the cuff buckles are tight because you are applying a lot of pressure against the instep

I noticed lower shell deformation even when flexing plug boots.


Hope this helps,
Jamie
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
I just brought home a new pair of Pro 130's. I love the fit and flex but have noticed something when flexing the boot. When flexing, the lower shell flattens out and the pivot points on the ankle bulge out. I could understand if this were to occur at the end of the flex range but it starts very early in and deforms progressively through the range. Any ideas here? Thanks for any help.
I worked a bit with Matt Schiller (Nordica Race Director) last spring in fitting Dobermans. This is exactly how they should flex if they fit you correctly. They will very likely not do that on-snow (except in late spring when it gets warm and you'll not lever them so much then, anyway).

That said, are you sure that they are sized correctly? The "very early" is a bit subjective, but they shouldn't load very much before the lower cuff buckle engages (as swyswy notes). You can cut the lower cuff buckle (there is actually scoring on it, IIRC) to get a bit more cuff flex before that occurs.

Also, have you pulled the spoiler?
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I worked a bit with Matt Schiller (Nordica Race Director) last spring in fitting Dobermans. This is exactly how they should flex if they fit you correctly. They will very likely not do that on-snow (except in late spring when it gets warm and you'll not lever them so much then, anyway).

That said, are you sure that they are sized correctly? The "very early" is a bit subjective, but they shouldn't load very much before the lower cuff buckle engages (as swyswy notes). You can cut the lower cuff buckle (there is actually scoring on it, IIRC) to get a bit more cuff flex before that occurs.

Also, have you pulled the spoiler?
Steve and swyswy, very helpful, thank you both.

Steve, the lower buckle is so close to the lower shell at rest that very little motion is required for the two to come together. Trimming the buckle sounds like a good idea, I'll look for the score. I have left the spoiler in for now for two reasons: 1) thin calves 2) long legs.

Regarding the fit, wonderful. Great boot for my foot.

Thanks again.
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
Steve and swyswy, very helpful, thank you both.

Steve, the lower buckle is so close to the lower shell at rest that very little motion is required for the two to come together. Trimming the buckle sounds like a good idea, I'll look for the score. I have left the spoiler in for now for two reasons: 1) thin calves 2) long legs.

Regarding the fit, wonderful. Great boot for my foot.

Thanks again.
Does the deformation cause any instep pressure that's uncomfortable? If not, ski it first.

I'd also consider pulling the spoiler to see how it fits/skis before the buckle, but I like the instant response...
post #6 of 21
Ski them before you cut them. The beauty of the dobermann s that you do have that intimate contact between the cuff and the lower shell. It is even more extreme with the 150. The buldge is going to happen with any boot when it is flexed - esecially when it is flexed at room tempurature. Even my WC 150's do it when its warm. Also, the cold WILL effect these boots. They will get stiff - very stiff. It is possible that you are over flexing the boot because they are too warm. Unless they are making your foot feel uncomfortable from the lower shell changing shape, I would not worry about it. Also, check your shell fit... I have seen it happen that this occurs when boots are fit too large...
Later
GREG
post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Does the deformation cause any instep pressure that's uncomfortable? If not, ski it first.

I'd also consider pulling the spoiler to see how it fits/skis before the buckle, but I like the instant response...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Ski them before you cut them. The beauty of the dobermann s that you do have that intimate contact between the cuff and the lower shell. It is even more extreme with the 150. The buldge is going to happen with any boot when it is flexed - esecially when it is flexed at room tempurature. Even my WC 150's do it when its warm. Also, the cold WILL effect these boots. They will get stiff - very stiff. It is possible that you are over flexing the boot because they are too warm. Unless they are making your foot feel uncomfortable from the lower shell changing shape, I would not worry about it. Also, check your shell fit... I have seen it happen that this occurs when boots are fit too large...
Later
GREG
Steve and Greg, thanks.

Steve, no instep discomfort at all.

Greg, regarding the shell fit, I have just over a finger width behind my heel with toes touching the front.

I love the fit of these boots particularly the heel cup/achilles slot which are the best that I have experienced.

I'll leave the buckle alone.

Thanks again.
post #8 of 21
It sounds like you have a good fit. If there is no discomfort caused by the slight distortion then I would say that you are all set and ready to go. A lot of boot manufacturers aer starting to make the sides of the lower shell of boots thinner and softer than the rest of the boot. Salomon did it with spaceframe, and now uses a differet kind of plastic for that area of the boot. A lot of racers actually have it ground down further to make it softer. Taken to an extreme it is not a positive thing because it negatively effects the shape of the lower shell, but when in the right proportions gives a nice flex pattern to the boot and allows for slightly more flex in the boot. Again, on snow I doubt you will notice it... or at least be able to flex the boot enough to notice it.
Later
GREG
post #9 of 21
I'd say that's on the big side for those boots, but if you like the fit, you're good. With that liner, it's not likely to change a lot (it's a cork-based fill material).
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I'd say that's on the big side for those boots, but if you like the fit, you're good. With that liner, it's not likely to change a lot (it's a cork-based fill material).
Steve, how should I fit them?
post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
Steve, how should I fit them?
Now, there's a loaded question!

I'm thinking about the 150 this year. If I get it, I'll probably get a 0-finger fit and have it ground/punched for the room I need in the right places. If you're skiing the boot, you can probably go a bit smaller, and you should err on the small side. The boot is made for grinding/punching, so should be sized so you have to do some of that. And the more closely the plastic matches your foot, the better off you'll be.

I'm sure that there will be howls of disagreement, but that's how I see it.
post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 

tough decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Now, there's a loaded question!

I'm thinking about the 150 this year. If I get it, I'll probably get a 0-finger fit and have it ground/punched for the room I need in the right places. If you're skiing the boot, you can probably go a bit smaller, and you should err on the small side. The boot is made for grinding/punching, so should be sized so you have to do some of that. And the more closely the plastic matches your foot, the better off you'll be.

I'm sure that there will be howls of disagreement, but that's how I see it.
I tried on the US 9 shell today. Interesting, the cuff seems so much lower than the US 10. It almost looks like a Junior boot to me, however, I was able to get into it (with a fair amount of pain). Due to the length, I was not able to fully flatten my feet but came very close. This caused a little instep pain but I think that could be relieved by making a litttle more room for the feet to flatten out.

Frankly, my only reluctance in going to the smaller shell would be that this shop could not provide the type of alteration that I would require. Another concern is fitting a footbed in there. One notch in on all four buckles and they were pretty snug. I wish I had more knowledge of just what a good fitter is capable of because in the back of my mind I believe the smaller shell is the way to go but it's tough to pull the trigger without knowing if they can be made to work.

I've heard good things about Keith Holmquist at Hunter in NY. Maybe I'll give him a call.

Thanks again.
post #13 of 21
You need a real fitter to get the most out of those boots. They aren't really made to shape to a foot out of the box. They are intended to be ground and punched to really "custom conform" the shell to your foot.

How did the 9 shell fit you? .5cm or so?
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
You need a real fitter to get the most out of those boots. They aren't really made to shape to a foot out of the box. They are intended to be ground and punched to really "custom conform" the shell to your foot.

How did the 9 shell fit you? .5cm or so?
Sounds about right, maybe a little more.

.8 maybe.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
Sounds about right, maybe a little more.

.8 maybe.
In those boot, IMO, that's plenty.
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
In those boot, IMO, that's plenty.
I swapped for the smaller size today.

Thanks again for all of your help.
post #17 of 21
Cool. Got a good fitter to help shape that shell for you?
post #18 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Cool. Got a good fitter to help shape that shell for you?
Still researching. The New York tri-state area is not exactly a hot bed for boot fitters.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellensdad View Post
Still researching. The New York tri-state area is not exactly a hot bed for boot fitters.
I assume you've checked out the ones in the EpicSki Index of Boot-Fitting Masters...
post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I assume you've checked out the ones in the EpicSki Index of Boot-Fitting Masters...
Indeed. I've heard very mixed reviews for the fitter in my area. I'm thinking about going to Keith Holmquist, not on the list but has recieved a lot of praise here.
post #21 of 21
Understood. There are also exceptional ones up farther north, of course.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion