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Heavy Handed Dealing of Freelance Topic - Page 2

post #31 of 46
"...soliciting or offering instruction without the explicit approval of EpicSKi is a violation..."

Sorry to be pedantic, but is it no longer possible to solicit instruction without explicit approval of EpicSki, even if you are willing to go through the appropriate ski school or whathaveyou when actually making the lesson purchase? I came to Epic in order to find an instructor to help my husband get back on skis after surgery. (thank you Rusty!) I'd hate to think that would not be possible now, and doubt that's your intent.
post #32 of 46
Huh. Interesting, Mom. I'm not sure how to handle this. Suggestions welcome.

The intent is that folks can come here and ask for recommendations, etc. We'll shortly have the instructor listing back up, for example. However, we must limit arbitrary posting of threads offering instruction services for what I hope are obvious reasons. So, how can we better communicate our intent?
post #33 of 46
How about:

Solicitation of instructional services that violate law or resort policies is a violation of the terms of EpicSki. All threads and posts soliciting or offering freelance instruction without appropriate approval will be immediately locked or deleted.

Instructors are permitted to advertise their availability for legally provided lessons only via the Epic Instructor listing or through responses to posts seeking instructor recommendations.

Students seeking lessons outside of the traditional ski school environment should be aware that ski school employees are not allowed to teach lessons that are not arranged through the school at their home resort and that instructors teaching at a resort they are not employed at generally must have permission from and a business arrangement with the resort before charging for their services. Because most such arrangements are approved only for large groups (e.g. camps, ski club trips), EpicSki does not permit posts that are requesting freelance services without prior approval.

EpicSki apologizes for any inconvenience that this policy may cause to law abiding individuals. EpicSki does not support illegal activities. This policy is also necessary to avoid the costs of becoming involved in legal proceedings.
post #34 of 46
Hey, that's good! not a lawyer, but it seems to cover everything
post #35 of 46
therusty, I owe you. Clicking "replace" now...
post #36 of 46
therusty - excellent.
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
How about:

Solicitation of instructional services that violate law or resort policies is a violation of the terms of EpicSki. All threads and posts soliciting or offering freelance instruction without appropriate approval will be immediately locked or deleted.

Instructors are permitted to advertise their availability for legally provided lessons only via the Epic Instructor listing or through responses to posts seeking instructor recommendations.

Students seeking lessons outside of the traditional ski school environment should be aware that ski school employees are not allowed to teach lessons that are not arranged through the school at their home resort and that instructors teaching at a resort they are not employed at generally must have permission from and a business arrangement with the resort before charging for their services. Because most such arrangements are approved only for large groups (e.g. camps, ski club trips), EpicSki does not permit posts that are requesting freelance services without prior approval.

EpicSki apologizes for any inconvenience that this policy may cause to law abiding individuals. EpicSki does not support illegal activities. This policy is also necessary to avoid the costs of becoming involved in legal proceedings.
therusty, I owe you. Clicking "replace" now...
this still raises questions. If, as an instructor, I solicit a member on epicski to come ski with me, am I in violation here if I offer unsolicited/solicited advice to that person while skiing? (I know, I'm probably stretching things here.)

I've opened a new thread on what constitutes free-lancing, and am hoping the discussion of that will occur here
post #38 of 46
Seen on the "Epicski Instructor Listing":



EpicSki Username: **** *
EpicSki Profile
Real Name: **** ******
Location & Home Mountain:*****, CO - *********
Instructor Level:PMTS Green (PSIA LII equiv)
Specialties:Old Folks w/arthritis
Preferred Contact Info: Private Message
Comments:I am free-lance, not associated with any ski school.
post #39 of 46
Yes, hemingway, we are aware of this and he has prior approval.
post #40 of 46
I certainly assumed there was consent on the part of Epic.

The term "freelance' is what jumped out.


Hem
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom View Post
Should Epic insist that people contact them to 'discuss' it before posting? I'm not so sure. I think Epic's tush is covered if they simply state that one should not solicit or offer services that are illegal and that it is incumbent upon them to know if it is or isn't. You can educate members by stating that it is illegal in many or most US resorts to offer or seek 'under the table' instruction. and you could even point out to prospective students that they take a risk by employing an individual -stranger at that - without liability coverage. Then let people figure it out for themselves.
(The quoted post is from another thread... To get to it, click the blue button next to Mom's username.)

For me, this is the crux of the issue. My/our intent with the policy is to protect folks who don't know any better. Perhaps this is faulty. Perhaps caveat emptor should rule here at Epic as anywhere else. The thinking, for whatever it's worth, went this way: EpicSki is sought by skiers looking for advice and recommendations on everything from skis to resorts to instructors. As a result, many of those posting are very likely to be unaware of the various issues surrounding ski instruction that is not offered by a resort ski school. So, as a precaution, we could help them by setting a clear policy for such alternatives.

Note that Gordy Peifer's Straightline Adventures Ski Camps was such an arrangement that was communicated to EpicSki members last year, for example.

It should also be noted that the posting of any request for "under the table" instruction here results in multiple complaints, some on the thread, others by PM or post report to EpicSki. Some have gotten heated as a result, with serious accusations thrown around.

The current policy's insistence on having those wishing to offer or find instruction contact us was to avoid and/or address these issues. If you are willing to take each of these into account, what would you suggest as better alternatives?
post #42 of 46
Is it safe to now assume that all can understand that Epicski's handling of "Freelancing" is NOT, in fact, heavyhanded at all?

I think that we all need to respect the site management's liability in these matters, and understand that they have much to lose should an "ambulance-chaser" decide to implicate Epicski.

Time to put this thread to rest, Hemthinks.

Thank You

Hem
post #43 of 46
Despite my fervent support for the policy, I read the initial post as being naive about the issue and specifically asking if freelancing was ok. I would have preferred to see a moderator posting in the thread linking to the policy and "steering" the thread to focus on the instructor recommendation portion of the question instead of closing it. I fear we may have lost a relatively new member.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
I fear we may have lost a relatively new member.
Or the member of Beaver Creek management code-named "Triplenet" has withdrawn, disappointed that they were unable to catch any disloyal BC instructors in their "triple net". Just kidding....
post #45 of 46
I feel there is a distinct difference bewteen asking for or offering "under the table" lessons and saying "ask for me" or "I am going to be at your resort, will you be available to teach me", going through the legitimate ski school process.

Obviously EpicSki has worked hard to addess this issue, but they have a responcibility to protect thier own butts and not encourage unlawful and/or immoral behavior, in this reguard.

Lastly, if you ask someone to ski with you, on this forum, and you are an instructor and give advice on thier technique, without being paid, that shouldn't be a violation of the terms.


Kevin
post #46 of 46
If I were a waiter, I wouldn't try to sell desserts I made at home while serving a patron. Freelancing while at an area which lets you ski for free is like that. On the other hand, teaching when you have paid for the privilege of skiing seems not so harmful and not at all unethical. There are arbitrary restrictions on Federal land out west, but the rules may be different on state lands, or where states have antitrust restrictions on ski areas. What would concern me about teaching freelance, where it is not illegal or unethical, is exposure to liability. I know our area does a lot of risk management, which would go a long way to proving that we were not negligent in a typical injury. It would be hard to keep that defensive strategy were I freelancing, and merely the cost of defending a negligence lawsuit would be prohibitive. I can't afford that risk.
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