Bad habits? - Page 2

That's the set of skills and issues that I focused on as the first example, since I think they are very easy to visualize. As BigE implies, there are likely many others.

For example, what would happen to a skier on a too-stiff ski in soft snow/crud? The skis would not plane and would probably dive. As a result, the skier would likely spend a lot of time working up-and-down movements to get the skis to come around.

Riding the arc and not learning how to use the front, middle, and tail of the ski to shape the turn using pressure skills as SSH indicated.

Skiing isn't always carving... if you can only carve, you're missing something in your bag of tricks. If you can only twist and push, you're missing something in your bag of tricks. Especially on ice.

Two things strike me in the statement:

- one thing- yes but many other skills are important too.
- habbit: a habbit of only turning left pretty much makes a person handicapped on the road. If you can't break your habbit long enough to learn to turn right, maybe NASCAR is in that person's future.

ASIDE: Ghost, I just wanted to point out that the ski that Steve was referring to is vastly different from the WC SC. The WC SL is a completely different animal from either the SC or the RC. The men's WC version would react as Steve described. In fact, it is so stiff that most guys who haven't passed the 150lb mark find it a pretty rough ride. The SC and RC are babies compared to the SL and GS.

Later

GREG

I think that the pressure skills in this instance are a huge part of skills that may not be developed as a result of equipment. When you think about it, most high level skiing involves round(er) turns when compared to low level skiing, and actually requires much better fore/aft balance on the skis - as well as allowing your body to get inside the turn - away from the skis. When skiing in even crud you will find yourself over the tips at the top of the turn and slightly farther back toward the end fo the turn, only to return to being in the front during the transition. A skier who can only park and ride cannot do this, and likely will struggle in those conditions - regardless of whether they can carve or not. Also, remember that when you are forward on the ski at the top of the turn, it allows you to flex the shovel of the ski... if you cannot do that then you are not really skiing on the ski. You mgiht be sliding across the snow... but you're not really skiing. It isn't a question about being able to decamber the ski when you stand on it really - it is the question of whether you can really decamber it when you are skiing on it - or if it is throwing you around when you try to ski on it.

Later

GREG

Have any of you guys considered that a ski over your head can TEACH you how to ski better...like eventually to turn it the way you want, you have to have better technique and eventually the ski gives that to you...

my experience:

I moved from CT to Reno at the tail end of '03-'04 with my only pair of skis being Atomic R9s...a nice light, snappy "mid-fat" (at the time) with good edge grip but by no means a high expert level ski. Well I blew out the edge on the R9s early in '04-'05 and in my stupidity at the time I thought I should replace them so I bought 180 Machete Souls cheap online. Those things were BURL and hard for me to ski (especially bumps) but I got good with them and I would occasionally switch off with a friend who had Axis Xs and coming from that burly ski to the Axis was like swinging a baseball bat with a doughnut on and then taking it off...I had a few "I feel like Johnny Moseley" moments in bumps on the K2s when I would switch to them...I skied all of '04-'05 with the Machetes and got Chubbs towards the end of that season and loved them in our big Sierra snow year...

....then at the beginning of last season I bought Legend Pros after stumbling on a deal online. Whoo boy those things felt slow to turn and heavy and hard to ski at first...but I put the time in and within a month I was RIPPING on them (and I sold my chubbs to VolantAddict )....then I bought Big Daddys and man those kicked my arse at first something fierce...but I grew into those and began to rip on them...and when things got tracked and I would switch from the Big Daddys to the Legend Pros I felt INDESTRUCTIBLE...like I could do any turn as quick as I wanted and I could go as fast as I ever wanted...

...so in summary, I think if you are on the cusp...you're good but it's just a new ski with a new type of performance...buying up and having a ski kick the snot out of you and whip you into shape could be just what you need...

...I say this though not ever having had a lesson in my life and having no clue if I have bad habits or not (you guys are the experts with that)...and I totally agree if you are a low level skier, up buying too much will slow down your progress - that happened to me when I was 18 and bought 200cm K2 Extremes : ...

(sorry for the long post)

X-EC, I think what you describe is actually a bit different. I suspect that you have skills that exceeded your skis' ability to deliver performance. You got some lazy habits on the lower-level skis, but when you ratcheted the performance up, you were forced to get more precise and the skis responded.

That's a total guess. But, I'd bet I'm not far off...

More particularly, they are centered around learning to engage and release the edges of a ski through progressive foot movements. Carving just happens to require that the skills be present in a refined form.

Yes, anything you do skiing is a learning opportunity. I hesitate to use the word "better", but it does give you another skill in the bag. Even a "right" ski might be too much ski in an extreme situation. Knowing how to muscle the ski might be exactly what is needed...but not all the time.

If you go too far, as was pointed out, the physics aren't there no matter how hard one tries. Or the reverse can be true. I mentioned elsewhere that I like to ski a 150cm SL ski. At my height/weight (6.1/210) I can over power that ski. The challenge is to find the sweet spot and not overpower it, but rather "feather" it. On the lucky occasions that I do it right, the ski will take a LOT of input without washing out.

Ghost, i am not sure if I answered your question in my other post, but slamming skis from edge to edge is essentially over used aggressive breaking movements used to steer the skis. The skier spends little time on the edge and moves quickly from one edge to the next with very harsh movements. Commonly this is imployed from the back seat. The skis are not carved, scarved, or skied in any shape the resembles a round turn. Think aggressive windshield wiper turns.
Later
GREG

Yes you seem to have the best understanding of what I was meaning by
a pole plant turn. It was called pole plant turn in 1992 and I learnt it from a video called Learning to Ski the Fast Way by Ilona Mclure if I have remembered the name of the video correctly. I have always found pole plant turning usefull in order to stay centered over the skis while turning in difficult terrain or when it is necessary to to change direction suddenly on busy slopes.

Blocking pole plant, Cassina.

One that I truly hate, is heel pushing. When it is done sequentially, it becomes the stem turn. Great turn in certain situations, but not one you want to do on a freshly groomed trail. When you DON"T "match the skis" this becomes the dreaded "power wedge". Usually accompanied by a complete lack of flexion/extension, and bending at the waist. It's ok if you are six.

Throwing the shoulders to initiate the turn. This one can appear especially odd , since those practitioners will often plant the wrong pole on turn initiation -- they really don't want to "go this way" anymore.

Inside ski dominance. All turns are inclined turns. IMO, this is very very difficult to fix. The problem is that the inclined body position is very stacked and very strong. Add to that a dose of fear and the inclination that we use to start the turn gets carried through the entire turn, with the skier ending up in the back seat. Turns either get linked with a traverse (due to the recovery phase), or initiation of the new turn is rushed, with a retraction or other jump like feature -- short turns are the norm. ( I try fixing this with skating drills that emphasize glide on the outside ski. Lifting the inside ski works but only as a drill to emphasize the outside ski dominance. )

Lifting the inside ski. What are you finished using that one? What better way to mark time that looking like an upside down pendulum? Watch me demo "park and ride".....

park and ride -- don't get me started....

Pop-up unweighting. These practitioners are often flexed in the belly of the turn, and extended in transition -- EXACTLY THE WRONG PHASING OF FLEXION/EXTENSION! The pinnacle of the park and ride dead end -- no movements whatsoever during the turn. This skier is found on the groomers and in "the lanes" in the afternoon...

The blocking pole plant -- another great skill, that can easily be mis-used. It's supposed to block the upper body from rotating, hence it's name, yet it's often used like the newel post at the bottom of a stair case. Plant, leap and throw the shoulders so that the entire body rotates right around it. Hey man, I DO BLACKS!

As you can tell by my tone, I absolutely hate these habits. Why? Because I am intimately familiar with many of them!

Well-said, big E.

Likewise, excellent stuff Big E.

X-ec - Back in the days before shaped skis (late 80s) I was a skinny 155 lb 6'2" gangly type, living in Summit CO. About 3 nights a week I would ski Keystone after teaching all day at Breck. I had these Head 210 race stock Super Gs with a 70m radius. I was hell-bent on leaving clean lines in the snow and not letting them skid at all, because I was going for pure speed on Flying Dutchman and the other steep blue groomers on the front of Keystone. It taught me a clean turn initiation and pure carving back in the days when no one skied that way (save the racers). I never would have dreamed of teaching that to people. Then, fast forward 5 years, and it was all the rage, and I had the technique already engrained. Put me on a pair of 178cm skis with a 14m raduis, and I almost couldn't get them off their edges.

I have a few "bad" habits. One is skiing too fast for the conditions. Usually "conditions" means the number of people on the hill. I've never run into anyone, but I've been known to scare a few folks.

Probably my worst bad habit is not skiing nearly enough. These dang kids keep getting in the way of my skiing time. My priorities are obviously all screwed up.

Ok - Blocking pole plant - another item to add to the "still need to learn to do" list...

Does someone want to tell me why I MUST have one of these to ski GS skis? I have no idea how to do one ... must be why I squawked a lot skiing trees on GS skis....

You don't need a blocking pole plant to ski GS skis. In fact, the vast majority of the time, you don't need a blocking pole plant at all.

Also, it's likely that you already "have" it. If you've ever planted your pole on a bump or otherwise punched a pole into the snow when the tip was facing downhill from you, you've used a blocking pole plant. Basically, you get the pole "solidly" into the snow and use it as a fulcrum for your turn; a solid platform which you can turn around.

It's defensive, but it can be effective when necessary. If you've got LeMaster's book, he's got excellent pictures and prose describing this move on page 93.

ummm nope.... pole plants are pretty much pole touches for me.... no punching involved.... my grip is super light mostly (too light) as I was told to "flick" the pole out.... and to hold it however felt good....

as I used to fence what "felt good" was to hold with my hand very loose (this allows a fencing foil to be manipulated easily by the thumb and forefinger)....

One instructor I ski with is attempting to train me for a more "solid" grip.... but so far I'm a poor student....

Dis, I agree with Steve that you don't need to use a blocking pole plant much. It's mostly used in steep, narrow corridors as a 3rd point of contact to stabilize the body.

When making short swing tunrs with lots of skidding, the skis become pointed across the fall line, there is lots of counter rotation, and the pole plants firmly in the snow as the edges lock and the skis stop their sideways skidding. Then the body moves across the skis and they skid around to the other side. The upper body continues facing down the hill with quite a bit of counter. They are very pivot-y turns.

If you've ever done or seen someone make hop turns with little to no forward momentum (all movement is mostly skidded downhill), then you've probably done/seen blocking pole plants. You see extreme skiers in tight chutes using them all the time.

The easiest way to learn them is one at a time, doing hockey stops with a firm pole plant as the edges lock and sideways momentum stops.

Why plant when you can touch? See "blocking pole plant," above.

Thanks Johns and ssh....
I was just going by this...

the pole plant turning was translated as a blocking pole plant.... so i was wondering why one needed to develop this skill before skiing these skis...

I know(well I've been told) that I can ski those GS skis in the trees(yes I squawked all lesson but I was repeatedly told to shut up and ski as I was quite capable of making the turns on the skis skill wise I just needed the ski time).... I am also not aware of having a "blocking pole plant" in my repertoire....so I was wondering what I'm missing and when/where/how I would need it... I'm not too keen about hopping on skis if I don't have the required skill set.... but I was quite happy with how those GS skis felt in long turns and would like to use them in the race course...

Ok...

Now I have another one...

"short swing turns" sorry this one is outside my vocab too....

I have

• short
• short with heaps of speed control" (reeeaaaally short and tight for the guy in Italy who swears my aussie version short will result in death if you ski up there like that )
• ssshmedium(a longish short)
• medium
• long

in the vocab

but not short swing.... what is short swing exactly?

Dis - I think we may have a context symantics issue going (yet again). From what you quoted, I gather Cassina was refering to a pole plant that allowed for blocking gates while racing. Blocking a gate is a very different beast from the the PSIA definition of a blocking pole plant. Unfortunately, you not being a racer, got caught up in the word "blocking", and it didn't fit the definition you knew and got you all buggered up.

Short swing vs short radius.

Short radius is a generally carved or more carved turn, where the tails follow the tips without the tails being too far outside the path of the tips. CM travels across the fall line fairly aggressively.

Short swing is old school, with a lot of skidding, speed control by an edge check or blocking pole plant, little deviation of the CM outside the fall line. Having said "old school", it's still used in situations as needed, such as steep chutes or on irregular terrain.

In short swing, the edge set will be a lot lower at turn initiation, and grow quite a bit throughout the turn, whereas a short radius turn will get a pretty high edge at initiation. Due to this, a short swing turn will create a lot of pressure at the bottom of the turn, but a short radius turn will have more constant/consistant pressure throughout the turn (and therefore, works a lot better on ice).

Does that make sense?

ummm yes and no....

The italians turns are no way carved... but there is no blocking pole plant.... even my "short" turns are not carved... the shortest I get on close to carved is really what I have been told is my "slalom" turn which is somewhere just a bit less short than my short...but shorter than the ssshmedium
my short has some speed control...the slalom is for GOING... it rocks but scares the pants off me all at the same time... mucho rebound for me to control and my pressure control skills suck... so I do OK until I hit some nasty snow lumpy/cruddy bit .... I never do them in deeper snow ever...(Not YET anyway )

As I said i really have no idea of how to do a blocking pole plant(at least not that I can envision skiing wise)... and edge check? (end of hockey stop I guess?) they have to push me to do that too... yet I know i can do that italians turns down a black run that is hard as a rock and smooth as babies behind... and he assures me my speed control is perfect doin so... and I KNOW I'm nothing like carving....