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New wide skis in bumps...

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
Is my style oldschool or am I missing something? I find most of the newer skis way to wide as my legs are too close together. Is this type of skiing something people are just forgetting about when they buy these fat skis?
post #2 of 37
No, but it is a type of skiing that has largely been replaced by technique that makes better use of what skis are capable of doing, rather than sliding around on the bases of the skis. Most of the time, our feet are approximately hip-socket-width apart, allowing plenty of room for the wider skis.

...and we tend to use the sidecut of the ski (and the arc created by the counter-flexed skis) to scribe the turns.
post #3 of 37
Zipper lining bumps on fat skis (thinking 90mm and up) can be a challenge. It certainly won't be done in the manner that bumps were skied 15 or 20 years ago... at least not with ease. This is a really simple answer to a very complex topic, but what I have found when skiing bumps on fat skis is that maintaining a semi-narrow stance is easy - IF - you allow your feet to vertically separate. Meaning one ski will be int he trough, and the other will be slightly higher up the side of the mogul you are skiing around... I am not sure how much sense it makes... the pro's here could probably better explain the movements of what goes into a bump run on fat skis though... In most cases if the skis are not significantly wider than your boots you should be relatively okay. One of my most favorite bumps skis ever is the K2 AK Rocket... it has a 23 or 25m radius and no metal in it... and a 90mm waist. It is a fun ski in bumps.
Later
GREG
post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 
The waist width of the ski isnt what bothers me, its the tip. I have a dedicated mogul ski (Dynastar twisters) and they rip. Then I get on some wider all mountain planks and its just not the same in the bumps.. not even close. I was always taught that when ripping a zipperline you're skis should be even the whole way down.. dropping one into the trough and one up on the bump looks dumb and isn't proper technique as far as I know. I guess ripping zipper lines is just a thing of the past??
post #5 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
No, but it is a type of skiing that has largely been replaced by technique that makes better use of what skis are capable of doing, rather than sliding around on the bases of the skis. Most of the time, our feet are approximately hip-socket-width apart, allowing plenty of room for the wider skis.

...and we tend to use the sidecut of the ski (and the arc created by the counter-flexed skis) to scribe the turns.

That is how I ski everywhere else on the mountain.. I had the luxury of both racing and freestyle skiing as a youngster. Gave me a pretty good combination to ski all mountain. Wide skis are great off piste.. Only wish I could make them rip through teh bumps.
post #6 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraman View Post
The waist width of the ski isnt what bothers me, its the tip. I have a dedicated mogul ski (Dynastar twisters) and they rip. Then I get on some wider all mountain planks and its just not the same in the bumps.. not even close. I was always taught that when ripping a zipperline you're skis should be even the whole way down.. dropping one into the trough and one up on the bump looks dumb and isn't proper technique as far as I know. I guess ripping zipper lines is just a thing of the past??
You have the right skis for skiing this way in the bumps (and I apologize for misunderstanding in my earlier post).

Skiing bumps on mid-fats or wider does require an adjustment to technique. I don't find it to be too difficult, but I do understand what you mean. I can also widen my stance a bit and mostly ride the zipperline, but it is different from a dedicated mogul ski or doing so with a pair of straight(er) skis.
post #7 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
You have the right skis for skiing this way in the bumps (and I apologize for misunderstanding in my earlier post).

Skiing bumps on mid-fats or wider does require an adjustment to technique. I don't find it to be too difficult, but I do understand what you mean. I can also widen my stance a bit and mostly ride the zipperline, but it is different from a dedicated mogul ski or doing so with a pair of straight(er) skis.

I find that as soon as I start to widen my stance in the bumps It slows me down and my I don't have the control over having both knees at the same point in the compression. While having my knees together, I can keep everything nice and tight and uniform.

What's the trick with widening your stance in the bumps? Does it just take practice?
post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraman View Post
I find that as soon as I start to widen my stance in the bumps It slows me down and my I don't have the control over having both knees at the same point in the compression. While having my knees together, I can keep everything nice and tight and uniform.

What's the trick with widening your stance in the bumps? Does it just take practice?
it is just a matter of adjusting. I had a blast on my M11's for the past two seasons in the bumps. I skied the zipperlines with them, but with more of a carving hip width apart tecnique. There is a video floating around here somewhere.

As far as a wide ski...what are refering to as "wide"? I plan on having some 85 waisted skis and even some 100 waisted skis for this season too. But when I use thes it will be softer and deeper snow, which will make a bigger more spaced bump.
post #9 of 37

Fat skis in the bumps? The horror!

I can see Dan DiPiro laughing so hard he's busting a gut. Then crying. Check out this old thread for background info.

IMHO - you can ski the zipperline in the bumps with fat skis if there's a nice thick dusting of powder. Otherwise you are going to lose the edge to edge quickness and other performance factors of more mogul friendly skis and end up with "not even close". With fat skis you will need to adjust your technique to account for equipment performance differences. Without edge to edge quickness you will need to take a slower and wider line through the bumps. Some skiers may be able to "work" the skis more and stay in the zipperline. Others may need to go more across the slope. With slightly wider skis, you also should have a slightly wider stance. It's not much of a difference, but it's enough to cause trouble if you don't adjust. I used to find shape skis annoying in the bumps because the tips and tails would knock and step on each other.

This issue is why "all mountain" "mid fats" are so popular in the US. They are the best compromise between powder and bump skiing. However, some might argue that the compromise results in a ski that is substandard in both conditions. Those people tend to own a quiver a skis so that they can ski with the best conditions du jour.
post #10 of 37
My phat luvs are great in bumps, you can pivot, slam or scarve, whatever's needed. You get used to the width, and so still ski narrow if you want... the skis are very close together, it's just that the extra cm or so (ok, extra 3 cms) needs slight adjustment if you've been used to skis with a 60mm waist. The trick with fatties is, they should be not too shaped. Then they're great in powder AND bumps, and everything in between.
post #11 of 37
a somewhat different perspective.

i have taught bump lessons on a 78mm and 84 mm waisted ski for two seasons and made no "technique changes" or alteration to stance width.
post #12 of 37
Obviously fatter skis are never going to be as good for zipperlining moguls as ones designed specifically for that purpose, so perhaps a better strategy is to ski moguls in a different manner than the zipperline method when on fats. I like using moguls as a ramp and hop turning into the troughs while pivoting on my pole, whee!

Personally I ski moguls just about every day I'm on the hill, and usually I'm skiing 188 Chubbs with an 87mm waist. They don't have a huge sidecut, so they work pretty well in moguls, though I don't ski in them when it's icy if I am thinking clearly.
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy View Post
a somewhat different perspective.

i have taught bump lessons on a 78mm and 84 mm waisted ski for two seasons and made no "technique changes" or alteration to stance width.
Are you skiing feet-together, zipperline style? If so, I'd love to hear more about how this works...
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Are you skiing feet-together, zipperline style? If so, I'd love to hear more about how this works...
A-Frame!

Just kidding.

A wide ski is ok in the bumps. I think a stiff wide ski gets a little rough.

One thing that I find myself doing is changing stance (as we say here on Epic). At times I move my feet together like in the old days. I find big tips will get hung up easily on the front of the bump.

Skis today are so much better than the old straight skis, that they can do anything better. On some days I do wish I had a bump ski. But then there would be no where else to place blame.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Are you skiing feet-together, zipperline style? If so, I'd love to hear more about how this works...
no and sometimes. i have a fairly narrow stance to start with and do think in terms of marginally narrowing my stance. is it plastic to plastic? i sure hope not.

how does it work? i tip them, turn them, push on them and pull on them. i go left and right. my goal is to just keep moving. keep something moving.

that is not intended to be smart alecky or overly simplistic. it is honestly my focus in bumps.

i would say my bump skiing has evolved based upon picking the brains of ladies and gents i work with at winter park. it is biased away from tipping/carving/edge engagement. it evolved from guidance of "the other" bob barnes and a couple of skiers i respect on our staff.

i freely admit it is not mainstream. i do believe that the methodology i employ and teach is the easiest to teach and easiest to ski.

i also scoff at the idea of 50 year olds who claim to ski the zipperline. do i ski bumps well? i think that's an oxymoron for anyone over 50!

i think in terms of a level III pivot slip.............in bumps.

when i here someone talking about being quick "edge to edge" my reaction is why? i do all i can to disengage the edge of the ski. i think it is one of the classic myths in ski teaching.

in teaching i talk about two axis. one i term east-west or across the hill. one i term north-south or down the hill. i want to go downhill. edges make me go east-west or across the hill. i try to minimize going east-west.

good bump skiing is north-south.

the mantra of our ssd vis a vis bump skiing is when in trouble.......skid.

steve, come by the jane and shadow one of my bump lessons. i'll try to turn back the clock and link two or three turns together. any more than that and body parts will fall off.
post #16 of 37
I ski bumps as well now on long fat skis as I did 20 years ago on skiny strait skis.

Someting to ponder, Your ski boots used to be much wider than your skis. when sking tight your boots used to smack and rub in the bumps

Now the Skis are about as wide as the boots (But the tips are wider)

Now your skis slap and cut each other before the boots, but you still knock boots somethimes.

Fat skis smooth out the ruts and cuts between the bumps, they dont hang up. the Zipper line is much smoother with fat skis.

I say don't think about it, you can either ski bumps or you cant. A Ski is not going to make that big a differnce, you just adjust depending on whats on your feel and what the conditions dictate.
post #17 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT View Post
A Ski is not going to make that big a differnce, you just adjust depending on whats on your feel and what the conditions dictate.
Yes and no. If you can rip a zipperline on a pair of mogul specific skis, then yes most likely you can ski decently on something else in teh bumps. I guess my frustration in new gear comes that its getting hard to find a ski that still posesses the ability to rip a zipperline the way its made to be skied (and still be able to hold its own elsewhere). In my opinion, a well skiing ski doesnt shouldnt force you to adjust your style to accomodate what teh ski lacks.
post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy View Post
steve, come by the jane and shadow one of my bump lessons. i'll try to turn back the clock and link two or three turns together. any more than that and body parts will fall off.


As always with you, a generous offer, and I will do all I can to take you up on it. You just have to promise not to tie me to the Ski School Desk when it's time for me to head home...
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
Obviously fatter skis are never going to be as good for zipperlining moguls as ones designed specifically for that purpose, so perhaps a better strategy is to ski moguls in a different manner than the zipperline method when on fats. I like using moguls as a ramp and hop turning into the troughs while pivoting on my pole, whee!

Personally I ski moguls just about every day I'm on the hill, and usually I'm skiing 188 Chubbs with an 87mm waist. They don't have a huge sidecut, so they work pretty well in moguls, though I don't ski in them when it's icy if I am thinking clearly.
The Chubb is one of the best ever fattie bump ski in my opinion.
post #20 of 37
A lot of truth in the 50 year old plus statement Rusty Guy.

I am no where as good as 15 years ago but still have confidence and feel good about my mogul skiing. My problem is I don't have the strength or stamina to link more than 40 or so turns in the zipper line anymore.

The short bump runs here in the East aren't too bad but some of those 150 turn bump runs out West are killer on my old knees.

It's still more fun than skiing groomers all day though.
post #21 of 37
If you can find a fat ski with a good soft tip it will rock in moguls.

I find the B3 fun in bumps, soft snow or corn bumps that is. Icebumps, absolutely not.
post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT View Post
I ski bumps as well now on long fat skis as I did 20 years ago on skiny strait skis.
Last I saw, you weren't so much skiing bumps on those 194 LPs but more trying to pretend they weren't even there
post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-EastCoaster View Post
Last I saw, you weren't so much skiing bumps on those 194 LPs but more trying to pretend they weren't even there
Like I said, 20 years ago 195 Dynastar Acryglass or Olinmark VI
Ski the tops till ya explode.: :

Today 194 LP's Just ski the tops till ya explode! :

Only major difference I used to bounce better.

BTW: X-Eastcoaster can get down a bump field pretty good, he even falls very gracefully
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT View Post
BTW: X-Eastcoaster can get down a bump field pretty good, he even falls very gracefully
You obviously didn't see me at Mammoth when I was like "hey, I'm gonna take the big daddys into this frozen bump run to see how I do."

Are you referring to the tumble in that DEEP snow in Nightmare when I went from about 40mph to my head to a dead stop on my downhill ski with the uphill ski placed tip behind me as if I were stretching my quads in about 1.2 milliseconds : That was favorite fall last season
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-EastCoaster View Post
You obviously didn't see me at Mammoth when I was like "hey, I'm gonna take the big daddys into this frozen bump run to see how I do."

Are you referring to the tumble in that DEEP snow in Nightmare when I went from about 40mph to my head to a dead stop on my downhill ski with the uphill ski placed tip behind me as if I were stretching my quads in about 1.2 milliseconds : That was favorite fall last season
That was a nice wipeout. I really enjoyed my run down the same line (Sans wipe-out)
post #26 of 37

There are ways...

I routinely use a ski with a 78mm waist. In addition, they have plenty of sidecut. One of my bad habits (of many) is that I ski with my feet too close together. The skis have well over 200 days on them, and show plenty of evidence of having been banged together at both the tips and the tails.

I have multiple goals in bumps.

I want it to feel slow and easy. This requires control of all the fundamental skills, but balance is huge. If I get behind my skis, regardless of their width, the turns will feel rushed. It will require way too much effort for my aging, out of shape body, and if I don't get over my skis quickly, I'll have to bail. This requirement for balance above all is totally independent of ski width. The skill blend will vary with ski width, however.

I want to mix up my turns, if bump shape allows. Some turns I want to pivot-slip, like Rusty Guy said. It's not too surprising. I've had the same mentors. Some turns I want to feed a little more edge and let the ski take a longer, "loopier" line. The slow line. Let that nasty sidecut work for me a bit. Have some patience, let the turn develop. I find this one tougher, but I know another one of those people at WP who does it regularly. It is amazing to watch.

I want to turn anywhere in the bump I feel like. I want to pick the type of turn and the place. I want to play.

[Edit] I forgot this one: I want every move to be a positive one, down the hill. No stepping or stemming. No leaning up the hill. No twisting the shoulders up the hill. No jerking, no slamming, no jamming. Back to the first goal: slow and easy, without forcing the "slow" part.

I'm rarely completely successful, of course. I suppose it isn't made any easier by a pair of skis that's a bit wide and bit too shaped, according to conventional wisdom, but I know that it's generally operator error, not equipment malfunction.

For whatever it's worth, I find that the "loopier" line gets tougher as the skis get fatter and straighter, but that may be a reflection of my lack of experience with, say, a pair of Mantras. On the other hand, I once skied some bumps on a pair of Rossignol Axxioms, which was an enormous (130mm waist) dedicated powder ski that was almost worthless on any kind of packed snow. Still, the pivot-slip approach worked fairly well. It was probably more survival than actual skiing, though.
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT View Post
Like I said, 20 years ago 195 Dynastar Acryglass or Olinmark VI
Ski the tops till ya explode.: :

Today 194 LP's Just ski the tops till ya explode! :

Only major difference I used to bounce better.

BTW: X-Eastcoaster can get down a bump field pretty good, he even falls very gracefully
Maybe we need an "Oldguy bouncing contest"!
I bounced a couple of bumps on my chest in Scott Chute the monday after I skied wiht you. Snow was rotten. Is that an excuse? : My best bounce of the year though. Later, RicB.
post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post

I want to mix up my turns, if bump shape allows. Some turns I want to pivot-slip, like Rusty Guy said. It's not too surprising. I've had the same mentors. Some turns I want to feed a little more edge and let the ski take a longer, "loopier" line. The slow line. Let that nasty sidecut work for me a bit. Have some patience, let the turn develop. I find this one tougher, but I know another one of those people at WP who does it regularly. It is amazing to watch.
i like that......the loopier line, aka;

the buddy bump or the banana line.

you hit a key by mentioning patience. i start every lesson by introducing the only original thought that i have ever had. i tell folks that most skiers do "too much, too soon, too fast" in bumps.

my answer is to do "less, later, slower"
post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy View Post
you hit a key by mentioning patience. i start every lesson by introducing the only original thought that i have ever had. i tell folks that most skiers do "too much, too soon, too fast" in bumps.

my answer is to do "less, later, slower"


Only in bumps?
post #30 of 37
it's not only in bumps, however, it seems most pronounced there. i suppose, as i type, it manifests itself in any situation where folks want to get a turn over with fast.
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