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A-Frames--not just cozy little ski chalets! - Page 2

post #31 of 128
Hey, what the...? Where'd my last post go?

.ma
post #32 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
That last post was very nice.


I don't think I have heard the whole outside foot / inside foot thing explained so well. (Or I am just mentaly in a place to hear it)

.
I'm glad you were in a place to hear it. I was too, and I agree with you (and Bob) completely.

Nice job, Bob. Thanks.

Do they still make cozy little Aframe ski chalets?
post #33 of 128

"A-Frame" (normal ?)

Bob,
Last year I conducted a clinic for pros and there was one person that --anatomically maintained an "A-Frame". After discussion, she said that she had gone the route, over the years, to resolve the problem......Had a group of 15 and did not have a chance to work very long with her....I did suggest a bit more inside ski usage and edge at turn initiation....I think that in her case ---I have to let her alone.....to resolve one problem will create much more.....she is an excellent teacher and she skis well enough for her level. I thank you for your generous acceptance of an A-Frame under certain situations......I really never thought of accepting the situation, until Your post.....Larry C
post #34 of 128

Canting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Hmm, just reread your post, and I'm not sure I answered the question you asked. In or out? IF it's a canting need, then the cure for underedging and a-frames involves the thick edge of the cant strip on the inside edge, big-toe side of the boot. That would allow your knee--and perhaps your ankle--to move back out where it belongs while keeping the ski at the same edge angle.

Look at the following illustration.



Rather than showing the underedged skier with the typical a-frame to tip the skis sufficiently, this shows how the uncanted skis of three different skiers who are not naturally bowlegged or knock-kneed would align with the snow when they stand in a neutral, natural stance. When these skiers tip their skis flat on the snow, the underedged skier's knees move in (a-frame), while the over-edged skier's knees move out (bowlegs).

For a simple way to look at how the cants would work, think of a wedge that would fill in the open space under the skiers' boots--thick edge to the inside for the underedged skier. Then their skis would be flat while their legs remain "neutral." Can you visualize it?Bob Barnes
This is actually the OPPOSITE of what it should be.
The idea is to adjust boot type, footbeds, and canting to place the legs in a nuetral position. I define neutral as the center of the knee mass aligned and tracking over the second toe (this is generally where the center line of most boots is) -- in actuality the issues are more complicated, but a little more on this below. If you place the thick side of a cant wedge on the INSIDE for a knock kneed person, the Knock Kneed behavior will become worse. If you place the thick side of a cant strip on the OUTSIDE for a bowlegged person then they will find it Harder to get an edge and will exhibit more total body rotation and wedging to start the turn and more end of turn A frame. In each of these cases Range of motion will most likely disappear in the lower joints, movements will move higher up the chain, become more gross and difficult to control AND balance will become more difficult.

IF these people need canting done it is
Knock Kneed alignment = thick to the inside (tip out)
Bowlegged alignment = thick to the outside (tip in)

These issues also affect how easy it is to be active with the inside foot. A knock kneed alignment makes it harder to tip the inside foot to the little toe edge and a bowlegged alignment makes it easier to ip to the little toe edge (though they have it harder getting subsequent stance foot edging as a result).


There are also other issues on where a person should be set related to neutral. In general a less accomplished skier should be set close to neutral and a stronger more accomplished skier should be set outside from neutral. How laterally strong the boot is in relation to the skier makes a difference here too. Very important for many people is the range of motion they have in key joints. If you place the person at neutral, but that takes up all range of motion for the person, then the person will really have problems. Here is an example from footbed constuction, to make my point. Many high arched Rigid foot supinators (Bowlegged/under edged), tend to have very little range of motion for eversion (tipping their ankle to the big toe side), If the footbed brings their ankle to neutral but takes up any ability to evert then you have taken away just what could help them edge better. Also if they have no ability to evert then that movement is not available for them to use for ajustments in balance and the balancing movement has to come from the knee/hip which would make things much more difficult.

Lastly, there is sometimes a give and take between being neutral and balance. For some conditions being neutral IS the most balance position. However, for many leg and hip issues, it is more of a compromise. An example here is someone with tibial varum (usually, an outward bend if the lower leg. In this case, if the center of the knee mass is placed in neutral (over the second toe), it will be easy for the skier to balance, but the skier will be underedged. If the skier is canted enough to flatten the ski then the knees will be a framed, balace will be more difficult, and the skier will never get rid of a wedge entry. In this case some compromise must be struck.
post #35 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierSynergy
This is actually the OPPOSITE of what it should be.
...
IF these people need canting done it is
Knock Kneed alignment = thick to the inside (tip out)
Bowlegged alignment = thick to the outside (tip in)
...
So, you are saying rather than work with their natural gait/stance that they have had for many years, that you want to work against it, and have them create a very un-natural one (to them)?

If they have one leg shorter than the other, do you advocate putting the lift under the longer leg as well?
post #36 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
270Bullett--Great post--lots of good points to consider--thanks for taking the time to express them! I hope you won't mind a little counterpoint to think about.

First of all, ......
Bob, That's great. Thank you for taking the time to respond with such a complete reply.

I understand the logic now. I find I have very little - if any - disagreement with what you wrote. When thinking through the actions you describe, I now understand that the way I visualize a turn is how you descibe it. It's only when I put the visualization into a verbal/written process description that things diverge.

When I re-read your post the 3rd or 4th time, I found myself thinking - "yea, that's what I meant" - and "oh, I see what he means - that makes sense."

I may use different mental cues, but I do believe my intent is in line with what you write.

Thanks again for taking me seriously and providing such a complete answer.
post #37 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Bob - when you made those turns - as the ski loaded up and the g-forces kicked in - what was the thought process? Were you thinking - "I need to put more weight on my inside ski and tip my inside knee more". Or were you more inclined to stand on that down hill ski when things got fast, tight, and loaded? I'm not being a smart-ass, I legimately am wishing to understand.
Don't worry, Bullett--I don't think anyone is taking you for a smartass! You ask good questions. Sorry I didn't reply to this one in my last post--you posted it while I was writing my earlier reply.

In any case, this is a particularly good question. What is my thought process? Hard to say! First of all, though, recognize the difference between the thought processes of practicing or demonstrating and the thoughts processes of performing. When I'm trying to demonstrate a particular thing, or practicing a particular thing, I'll usually focus consciously on that thing. And "that thing" could be any aspect of my skiing.

If I'm just skiing, running gates, or trying to perform my best at high speeds or challenging conditions, that conscious thought process and selective awareness of the "how" gives way to a broader awareness of the whole experience--sensory input from eyes, ears, and proprioceptors (sense of feel and body awareness)--and focus on the outcomes I want--the line I want to ski, the feelings I'm after, whatever. I think about where I want to go, rather than the mechanics of how I want to get there. Movements become automatic and reactive, rather than conscious and planned. It's a switch from the "how" to the NOW," from skiing like a robot to being "in the zone."

Sounds hokey, I know, but that is the difference between practicing and performing your best. Much of the time, I'm probably somewhere in between--like most instructors I am usually focusing to some extent on some particular aspect of my skiing.

So to anwser your question--IF I were to focus on the aspect of pressure on one or both skis during those turns, I would say the answer is "neither." Frankly, anymore, I don't usually care which ski or skis has the most pressure. In those turns, the pressure was probably 90% or more on the outside ski, but that wasn't really a conscious choice. I do intentionally allow pressure to build on the outside ski, usually, rather than trying to keep it equal or consciously pressuring the inside ski.

Why? Well, the outside ski is where the pressure wants to go, just as it shifts to the outside wheels of a turning car. So I let it--why fight physics? If, however, that outside ski slips a little, or the snow itself breaks away under its pressure, some or even all of my balance will shift to the inside ski. Because I am actively and precisely tipping both skis, that inside ski is always ready to take over as much or as little of the load as it needs to, so I can just let this happen too, without having to make any sudden adjustments or changes in my movements. A ski doesn't care whether it's the inside ski or the outside ski, and it doens't care what the other ski is doing either--it just responds to the edge angle and pressure applied to it.

All this allows me to focus on virtually the same movements in a range of diverse condtions, from bulletproof ice to bottomless powder. Interestingly, it's at both extremes that I'm more likely to have substantial pressure on the inside ski. When the snow is smooth and firm but "grippy," the outside ski carves clean and doesn't slip or break away, so almost all of the pressure moves to it. In bottomless powder, both skis are in, not on, the snow, so the pressure will be nearly even. And on the hardest ice, where my edges struggle to hold, weight will shift to the inside ski whenever the outside ski slips.

It wasn't always this way. Twenty years ago, when skis had much less sidecut and tended to be much stiffer as well, the more pressure you could put on a ski the better it would bend and carve. So any pressure on the inside ski was wasted and detracted from your outside ski's performance. Today's skis bend a lot more easily. One ski or two--it doesn't matter as much, allowing us to focus on more important things!

Yet there are good reasons still to balance primarily on the outside ski most of the time. Biomechanically, the outside leg is in a better position to manage the forces of the turn. As I mentioned, it's where the pressure "wants" to go, so in most conditions, it takes work to prevent it. And when balanced on the outside ski, the inside ski remains available as a backup, ready to take the load and keep you upright whenever the outside ski slips.

Thinking back to your first post, though, since we agree that skiing is about skills rather than dogmatic adherence to a particular "correct" technique, the best advice is to practice balancing on the outside ski, on the inside ski, and on both skis. Develop the skill and experience to balance on either ski or both, at any point in a turn, at any speed, in any condition, and you can leave the argument about what is "correct" to lesser skiers! With that kind of skill and attitude, your skis become an extension of your body, a part of you. Only then can you switch off your conscious mind, forget the "rules," and ski to your maximum performance capability--anywhere, any ski, any time! That is expert skiing.

And that's how things like Phil and Steve Mahre's "White Pass Turn" come around. The Mahres, like me, were firm advocates of balancing on the outside ski exclusively--stand on the right ski to make a left turn, on the left ski to make a right turn. But their training focused on skills, and they drilled themselves to ski on the uphill ski, the downhill ski, the inside and outside ski, and on one ski. They practiced transferring weight in a variety of ways, at various parts of turns. And the "White Pass Turn," which breaks the "rules" by balancing on the inside ski for about the first half of the turn then transferring to the outside ski only for the second half, happened spontaneously, unconsciously, in certain situations. Coaches even thought it was an error that they should work to correct, except that they were winning races! That is expert skiing!

What I am much more likely to focus on in those high-G carved turns is tipping movements, particularly in my feet and ankles, particularly my inside foot and ankle. As I'm coming through the finish of the previous turn, I start tipping my downhill (outside at that point) ski toward the new turn, smoothly reducing its edge angle until it stops carving. Simultaneously, my body moves back over my feet. Continuing that same rolling motion, the ski releases its grip, then eventually re-engages on the other edge, as my body crosses over the skis and starts inclining down the hill into the new turn. At some point, due to the combined forces of centrifugal and gravity, my balance moves smoothly from the downhill ski to both skis, to the new outside ski. And all the way through the turn, I am continuously aware of the tension in my inside foot and ankle as roll it toward the inside of the turn--tipping the inside ski toward its "little toe" edge--whether there's any pressure on that ski or not.

I assume that you're sitting down now. If so, starting with your feet flat on the floor in front of you, tip ("invert") your right foot so that its sole faces left and the ankle moves to the right. Raise your arch, while keeping the "little toe edge" on the floor. Your knee probably moved right also--right? Feel the tension around your ankle when you do this? This is the move, and the ankle tension is the sensation, that I feel continuously all the way through a right turn, until it's time to start reducing the edge angle and coming out of it. At that point, I start tipping the left foot left with the same sensations. (Yes, if I focus on it, I will also feel ankle tension in the outside foot, as it tips to hold the edge.)

This active inside foot tipping, along with the movements of the knee that accompany it, will virtually eliminate any technique-based a-frame! If you try it standing up and keep tipping that right foot ever farther to the right, you'll find that the movement will continue up through your whole body, as first your right knee moves right, then your hips, then everything else. And your left foot and leg will follow as well, of course. Use a wall or something for support as you simulate leaning into a turn. Notice that through all this, everything that moved moved right--nothing moved left. These are the "positive (into the turn) movements" that I referred to earlier.

I do not pay much attention to tipping the outside ski, even though it is the primary "active" carving ski. Yes, if I think about it, I will feel tension in the outside ankle too, as it works to grip the snow with the "big toe edge," but it's not usually an activity or sensation I focus on. It tips as part of the whole chain of body parts led by the tipping of the inside foot. If I need a higher edge angle with the outside ski, I tip the inside ski farther! And as you just discovered, there is no limit to how far you can tip everything, provided you have the G-forces you need to stay in balance!

Now try this: standing up flat-footed and in a comfortable, natural skiing stance, focus on tipping the left foot and leg to the right, as if you were tipping the outside of a turn. Try it a couple times before reading on.

I'm serious--try it!

Very different movement, isn't it? If you're like most people, this thought causes your left knee to move right, until it hits the right leg (there's our a-frame!). And your shoulders probably tipped left (a negative movement), keeping you in balance over your feet. Then everything stopped moving.

So even though a big goal is to get the outside ski tipped up on edge so it can carve, it is most effective to focus on tipping the inside ski, foot, ankle, and leg. That's where it all begins.

Wow--didn't actually intend to ramble on this long, but you did ask a good question, with lots of ramifications.

Quote:
Do they still make cozy little Aframe ski chalets?
Here's one where I spent a lot of time--but never enough--on the banks of the Carabassett River near Sugarloaf in Maine. I'll bet you know the place well, Weems! Don't know if "they" make 'em anymore. My dad built this one.


I probably won't find much time to participate here again for a couple weeks, except perhaps very intermittently--I'm on my way to northern Maine to visit family. Have a great end of July, everyone!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #38 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
This is actually the OPPOSITE of what it should be. . . .
IF these people need canting done it is
Knock Kneed alignment = thick to the inside (tip out)
Hmm, not sure how this is the "opposite" of my conclusion of "thick edge to the inside for the underedged [knock kneed] skier," which is also clearly shown in my diagrams. But then, reading comprehension must be over-rated, eh, SS?

You may be contrary, but you certainly aren't opposite!



Best,
Bob
post #39 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
So, you are saying rather than work with their natural gait/stance that they have had for many years, that you want to work against it, and have them create a very un-natural one (to them)?

If they have one leg shorter than the other, do you advocate putting the lift under the longer leg as well?
WTFH,

Skiersynergy is correct. Bowlegs are thicker OUTSIDE, knock knees are thicker inside. The goal is not to fill in the gap, it is to move the knee to the correct position.

BB is correct too. It's just a matter of how to look at it. Most people think canting is to "fill in the gap", which would mean fat side in for bowlegs. That would just make the bowlegged stance even wider.
post #40 of 128
As a humble amateur, I would like to note that in the past discussions about similar topics have degenerated into name-calling and d**k wagging, and I love that the posts in this thread have maintained the high road and remained respectful!
post #41 of 128
"A ski doesn't care whether it's the inside ski or the outside ski" - great line!
post #42 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
As for those WC photos... anyone want to take a stab at why they are A-framed and guess at a few factors that might contribute to it?
Without a video of the whole turn it's always going to be guesswork.
But in the two Bode shots and the Ligety shot, I would guess that it is a gate avoidance issue. (In the SL shots, they want to take the gate on an inside shin which is in a strong position - ie. a little more upright. In the GS shot Bode may be trying to avoid the gate with his inside knee.
In the Maier shot, it looks like his outside ski may be skidding somewhat, judging by the snow spraying up. Or, it could be a question of different amounts of ankle flexing - which from this camera angle could look like an A-Frame.

What would be your "stabs" at these photos, Heluvaskier?
("Et tu, Brute...")
post #43 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Here's one where I spent a lot of time--but never enough--on the banks of the Carabassett River near Sugarloaf in Maine. I'll bet you know the place well, Weems! Don't know if "they" make 'em anymore. My dad built this one.


I probably won't find much time to participate here again for a couple weeks, except perhaps very intermittently--I'm on my way to northern Maine to visit family. Have a great end of July, everyone!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
I think I got married in that one once.
post #44 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
What about when we see world-class skiers with non-parallel shins, such as Bode Miller:
http://www.netsport.ro/data/news/_Wi...ode-Miller.jpg
http://www.mentaltraining-su.ch/Home...odeMiller2.jpg
Hermann Maier:
http://www.sportsplanet.at/HermannMaier.jpg
or Ted Ligety:
http://sport.ard.de/spe/turin/news20...ty-180-dpa.jpg

I think the point here is that these are not exhibiting the "chronic" A-frame that Bob talked about.

We would probably all accept that the outside knee is not locked straight during any turn. So it is possible, by using "knee angulation" (femur rotation in the hip joint) to fine-tune edge angle. These shots are merely snapshots of a particularly necessary fine-tuning maneuver.

But is important to remember, as PM put it, shins can "deviate from parallelism by more than 0.001 degree" when real-life skiers are making real-life turns
You hit the nail on the head! these are not the "chronic a-Frame" Bob was talking about. these are caused by such extreme angles that there is no longer a place for the inside leg to go.

I am sure if any here is skiing with this much edge angle and aggression, we probably have no criticism of their skiing!

Bob, great post to start the thread. I couldn't agree more!
post #45 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
What would be your "stabs" at these photos, Heluvaskier?
("Et tu, Brute...")
Basically a combination of what you and Atomicman just posted. Because of the extreme angles and the amount of counter and counter rotation (in the case of Bode) being employed there is almost no option than the A-frame. Also, absed on Bode's path toward the gate being that he is above it and alrady inside of it, he is probably going to shin it. I don't know how many people out there have ever shinned a gate without a shin guard on, but it does not tickle - not matter how padded your GS suit is... This also fits in nicely with some of the discussions we have ben having in other threads regarding the path of the inside ski. Now, without the rest of the sequence before and after each frame we can't say for sure, but the pictures do show that the inside ski can be on a larger radius (result of less edge angle) than the outside ski. Of course (hopefully by now) we all know what that could imply...

Later

GREG
post #46 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
WTFH,

Skiersynergy is correct. Bowlegs are thicker OUTSIDE, knock knees are thicker inside. The goal is not to fill in the gap, it is to move the knee to the correct position.

BB is correct too. It's just a matter of how to look at it. Most people think canting is to "fill in the gap", which would mean fat side in for bowlegs. That would just make the bowlegged stance even wider.
There has been much discussion on the Forum on this topic. My answer is always the same though. Canting is an art and not a science. The same adjustment can provide different results for different people.

I am more form the fill the gap then move the knee school though. Who cares where your knee is, ( except for very minor adjustments)it is where your ski is that counts! Isn't what you are trying to accomplish is simply a flat ski/snow contact at a relaxed stance for the skier. For many people moving the knee is the answer. for some filling the gap works better.

In my book, bowleg would be inside thick and knockneed would be outside thick.

But again it could also work the other way. compleletly depends on the individual and the underlying cause of the alignment.
post #47 of 128
Bob, you read my post all wrong, please not so defensive. My intent was to demonstrate and compliment you on how far you have come with your understanding. Just a few years ago you sang a different tune, now you embrace Harb’s technical innovations. How quickly one can forget such growth in such a short time.

Nice attempt with the alignment, but very confusing. Are you advocating filling in the spaces or are you trying to suggest those changes in the diagrams can be made with movements?
post #48 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Hmm, not sure how this is the "opposite" of my conclusion of "thick edge to the inside for the underedged [knock kneed] skier," which is also clearly shown in my diagrams. But then, reading comprehension must be over-rated, eh, SS?
I'm sure I'm missing it, but how is a knock kneed skier underedged? Seems like a knock kneed skier would be overedged on the outside ski.
post #49 of 128

You biff if you don't

Quote:
Actually, the deeper and less consistent the snow, the more trouble you're asking for if you don't move both skis and legs simultaneously. That "platform-pushoff" movement pattern I described earlier falls apart if the platform of the downhill ski isn't secure and reliable. Skiers who depend on a platform to push off from really struggle in some conditions, notably light, deep powder, inconsistent crud, breakable crust, and bulletproof ice.
Perzactly! I have found that my falls in such conditions typically resulted from my failure to pay attention to what my inside leg was doing.

Fred :-)---//

Bob, enjoy your trip to Maine. I was back east in June; I'm living in Washington (state) now.
post #50 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
In my book, bowleg would be inside thick and knockneed would be outside thick.

But again it could also work the other way. compleletly depends on the individual and the underlying cause of the alignment.
I'm having a hard time understanding this. If my knees already drop to the inside (knockneed) and then you put the thick part of the cant on the outside don't you just drive my knees farther in?
post #51 of 128

Response to misunderstanding

[quote=Bob Barnes/Colorado]Hmm, not sure how this is the "opposite" of my conclusion of "thick edge to the inside for the underedged [knock kneed] skier," which is also clearly shown in my diagrams.

Nope. I am saying the opposite of the main quote below. It is not filling in the spaces you point to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
But then, reading comprehension must be over-rated, eh, SS?
Hmmmmmmmmm, Yeah I guess it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Look at the following illustration.



Rather than showing the underedged skier with the typical a-frame to tip the skis sufficiently, this shows how the uncanted skis of three different skiers who are not naturally bowlegged or knock-kneed would align with the snow when they stand in a neutral, natural stance. When these skiers tip their skis flat on the snow, the underedged skier's knees move in (a-frame), while the over-edged skier's knees move out (bowlegs).
Part of the reason you misunderstood my post is that when I say knock kneed, I usually refer to a state and not the behavior. So that knock kneed and bow legged are opposite ends of a continuum. However, often bowlegged skiers exhibit what looks like knock kneed behavior and are misidentified as knock kneed. Sorry. As you know, I'm a Harb accredited instructor and alignment technician and work for Harb Ski Systems throughout the year. I used the concepts/definitions I am used to. My fault for not being clearer. To avoid confusion, I will try to use the definitions that seem to be established in this thread. However, this is not PMTS/PSIA. In fact, I think any canting discussions I have seen in PSIA materials are consistent with what I am saying.

Both overedged and underedged skiers will tend to show knock kneed looking behavior, but the causes and actually the movements are usually very different.

One thing an underedged skier will tend to do is push the new stance leg out to the side (and either lean or stem and drop the knee in). They do this at the start of the turn in a specific attempt to overcome their bowleggedness (sorry, undewr edgedness) and get the ski on edge. If they don't do this the don't get an edge and then the turn doesn't start -- they just drift. Another stategy to compensate for being underedged is to lean, another is to twist on a flat ski with the upper body until the direction change allows the slope to provide easier edging.

The overedged skier will tend to simply drop the ankle and knee inward. The skier doesn't have to do a compensating "movement" to get this. The foot usually doesn't have to be pushed out to the side to affect this, this is the default position for their physiology/equipment, whatever.

Though on quick glance the situations may seem to look simiar. The two situations are very importantly different.

In short, an underedged skier (whether they exhibit knock kneed behavior or not) needs footbed support and or canting thick side under the little two edge side of the foot

And an overedged skier need the thick side under the big toe edge side of the foot. This is the opposite of the that suggested in the Barnes post. Proper footbed accomodation and boot canting is not leaving the skier in their Under or overcanted position and then filling in the space so that their skis become flat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
So, you are saying rather than work with their natural gait/stance that they have had for many years, that you want to work against it, and have them create a very un-natural one (to them)?

If they have one leg shorter than the other, do you advocate putting the lift under the longer leg as well?
This is a very different issue and in this case the space IS filled in. It is complicated because of the assessment issues involved, so an easy rule is: If the person actually wears a lift in their normal shoes, some lift mechanism should be used in their ski setup.

Another situation in which space IS filled in is situations of forefoot twist. An example: If a person is a pronator (ankle tends to fall to the inside) and their foot has a twist so the big toe is higher, then they need extra material filled in under the forefoot. They need this even if their is accomodation in their footbed heel to tip the calcaneous out. Even if the heel is properly tipped out to accomodate the pronation, if nothing is done with the forefoot, the big to is still left up in the air. Well of course once weight is placed on the foot the big toe goes to the ground and drags or twists the foot back into a pronated position. In this case one needs to fill in the space under the twist.
post #52 of 128
Thanks again Bob for the descriptions - in both posts.

What you describe is how I believe I ski. I do get lazy with the inside leg from from time to time. But, for for the most part, the ankle tension and other "positive" moves you describe are what I feel when I ski.

I just can't describe it as well as you.

For me, the two posts from you answered more questions than I asked. Thanks.

And ONYXJL - thank you for this enlightening response:

"After just rereading your post, leading with the inside ski doesn't mean weighting it. It means to edge it via active foot movements. The weight will always want to bias towards the outside ski to varying degrees so you aren't intentionally stopping that. You want the inside foot to be leading the edging movements and have the turn dictate where the weight should go."

I think you hit at the core of my confusion.
post #53 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
I'm having a hard time understanding this. If my knees already drop to the inside (knockneed) and then you put the thick part of the cant on the outside don't you just drive my knees farther in?
If you are knock-kneed as you stand in your normal stance, as Bob's diagram shows, you are standing hard on your inside edges with your outside edges off the snow. this creates a gap under the outside edges. If you put a wedge under the outside of your boottihs allows you to stay in your natural stance and flattens your ski to the snow.

Does this always work, as I posted above, it can go either way, but think of where the pressure is under your ski.

If you put a wedge under your inside edge that you are already standing hard on isn't that going to just increase the pressure on that edge.

For those that don't subscribe to this, again art not necessarily science, works sometime, sometimes not and what you are saying is correct.

experimenting on snow, with a trained eye watching is really the only way to go.

I have a different problem, I have a twist that puts me on my inside edge on my right ski. canting wither way does not fix this. really frustrating.

A third, solution is no canting at all, use athelticism to adjust and make oyour skis do what you want them to. I think this only works for minor alignment problems.
post #54 of 128
One factor in my use of a-frame over the years is the fact that I am flat footed. Before all these fancy corrections came along, I skied on the outside bone of my foot. This resulted in a bow legged stance that people often commented on. I skied with my skis together always touching. I learned that I could use the a-frame to grab with the inside edge.

The other thing that I have come to rely on is the anchor that the a-frame provides. Although it is hard to explain, there is a form of reference when your knees are together and touching. It's like a base or a familiar place.

One more thing that is flawed in my technique from a-frame: When I am ripping GS turns at high speed with all my weight on the down hill (outside?) ski. I often rest my boot against my other boot to act as that base or familiar place. I don't see many other people doing that!
post #55 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Now try this: standing up flat-footed and in a comfortable, natural skiing stance, focus on tipping the left foot and leg to the right, as if you were tipping the outside of a turn. Try it a couple times before reading on.

I'm serious--try it!

Very different movement, isn't it? If you're like most people, this thought causes your left knee to move right, until it hits the right leg (there's our a-frame!). And your shoulders probably tipped left (a negative movement), keeping you in balance over your feet. Then everything stopped moving.
Sweet Jesus! If you skipped over Bob's essay, go back and re-read it for just that quote.

Lo' and behold. When I tipped my outside foot to the big toe edge my inside foot went to its big toe too. I did not expect that at all. I had expected it to remain flat. I am simply amazed that in all my exploration of the positive effects of inside foot tipping on the kinetic chain I have never come across (nor thought to explore) this observation.

My compliments on sharing that highly illuminating piece of knowledge Bob.
post #56 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
. In general, we can sum it up as "insufficient inside leg activity." Contemporary technique relies on tipping both skis, with the inside foot and leg leading the activity. Some instructors emphasize keeping "parallel shafts," which implies tipping both shins equally. Like much advice, this can be a good mental cue, but I recommend against thinking of "parallel shafts" as a necessary technical outcome in itself. I like to think of the inside foot, leg, and ski leading most of the activity. When it comes to tipping, my mantra is "tip the right ski right to go right" (and let the other ski follow). If you recognize insufficient inside leg activity as the cause of your a-frame, do some focused practice with just this thought--even exaggerating, tipping the inside ski first, moving the inside knee away from the outside knee and keeping the knees farther apart than the feet (sometimes called an "O-frame").
Onysjl, did you not get this???
post #57 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Sweet Jesus! If you skipped over Bob's essay, go back and re-read it for just that quote.

Lo' and behold. When I tipped my outside foot to the big toe edge my inside foot went to its big toe too. I did not expect that at all. I had expected it to remain flat. I am simply amazed that in all my exploration of the positive effects of inside foot tipping on the kinetic chain I have never come across (nor thought to explore) this observation.

My compliments on sharing that highly illuminating piece of knowledge Bob.
Most people who tip their outside foot first to start a turn do end up A-framed because the inside ski does stay flat if it is not actively rolled to the little toe edge. But even better is to lead with the inside little toe edge and let the outside ski follow.
post #58 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
I'm sure I'm missing it, but how is a knock kneed skier underedged? Seems like a knock kneed skier would be overedged on the outside ski.
and......under-edged on the inside ski.

the knock kneed skier attempts to release the right ski to go right or roll the right foot to the little toe edge and has difficulty releasing from the inside edge or big toe edge.

an ancillary note.

at a psia clinic several years ago we explored another interesting "cause" for a-framing and that involved rotation of the hips.

in a right turn rotating the hips in a clockwise manner contributes to the left femur adducting. conversly, in the same turn to the right counter clockwise rotation of hips contributes to the right femur adducting.
post #59 of 128
Atomicman, I think you misunderstood my response. The effects of starting with the inside foot are something I am aware of.

I had never seen anyone else point out that starting the edging motion with the outside foot will actually pull the inside foot to its big toe edge as well. It doesn't just leave it flat, it actually appears to have a counter-productive effect. So not only is starting with the inside foot good, starting with the outside foot has a detrimental response in the kinetic chain.

The rest of Bob's post is well-written but frequently covered material so it wasn't new information to me. That particular insight was.
post #60 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Atomicman, I think you misunderstood my response. The effects of starting with the inside foot are something I am aware of.

I had never seen anyone else point out that starting the edging motion with the outside foot will actually pull the inside foot to its big toe edge as well. It doesn't just leave it flat, it actually appears to have a counter-productive effect. So not only is starting with the inside foot good, starting with the outside foot has a detrimental response in the kinetic chain.

The rest of Bob's post is well-written but frequently covered material so it wasn't new information to me. That particular insight was.
I did misunderstand. But I disagree with the comment that rolling the outside ski to the big toe side has any effect on the inside ski. In fact I believe starting a turn by rolling the outside ski to the big toe edge in fact most commonly creates the dreaded habitual A-Frame because the inside ski does stay flat. You particularly see a lot of this in "Old-School" skiers. Because that is how they were taught to ski back then.

A different set of circumstances results form rolling the inside ski to the little toe edge. YOu have no choice but to roll the outside ski to the big toe side, but it is not a reciprocal result when starting this movement with your outside ski to the big toe side.

In fact I would almost sya it is near physically impossible if not damn uncomfortable to keep your outside ski flat when rolling your inside ski. But you can and many skiers do roll thir outside ski and keep thier inside ski flat.
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