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Jackson Hole Boarder to Plead Guilty - Page 3

post #61 of 114
Watch where you're going! Stay out of my line! Hell, stay off the mountain or I'm gonna get hurt.
post #62 of 114
Oh, blinding light
Oh, light that binds
I cannot see
Look out for me
post #63 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles)
So, who really makes the call what is in control and what is out of control.
It depends on what you mean by "the call."

If the call is: should this person be criminally sanctioned (e.g. sent to prison), then a court (with a jury, if demanded by the defendant) makes the call. That much is in the constitution. Throw in the state legislature too, since it enacts the statutes that define what the crimes are and sets forth the range of penalties.

If the call is: should this person be brought before a court, then it's someone from the prosecutor's office who decides. That's also who decides, based on experience with and knowledge of the courts, whether to offer or accept a guilty plea to a particular charge.
post #64 of 114
If no incident occurs, it's complicated to determine whether or not someone is in control, even if appearances suggest one conclusion or the other. When an incident like this occurs all doubt is removed. This could not have happened if he were in control. By definition he was either out of control or the result was intended.
post #65 of 114

Punks on Parole

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
the prosecutor's office... decides, based on experience with and knowledge of the courts, whether to offer or accept a guilty plea to a particular charge.
Several posts have hinted that this was a negotiated plea bargain in the Jackson case. It was not. It was a straight guilty plea to the charge. In such a case, with no qualifying exceptions or requests from the defendant, the court must accept the plea. The only remaining variable is the judge's sentencing determination. He is bound by a 1 year max. jail term on this charge.

I think the charge of criminally negligent homicide in Wyoming should carry a max. term of at least two years, no poss. of parole. This would give the judge some more discretion to hammer this punk.

Too bad his parents can't also be charged with Cluelessly Negligent Child-Rearing. If you are not engaging your kids to behave safely and appropriately in all situations, you are part of the problem.

Hank
post #66 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoback Hank
Several posts have hinted that this was a negotiated plea bargain in the Jackson case.
I don't think there's really any way to tell what back-and-forth there may have been between the prosecutor's office and the kid's lawyer. It would be weird to plead guilty to the worst charge you're facing, without any trade-off whatsoever. From the press reports, it does sound like this was the only thing he'd been charged with, though. There may be some understanding as to the prosecutor's sentencing recommendation.

Quote:
I think the charge of criminally negligent homicide in Wyoming should carry a max. term of at least two years
It's a misdemeanor, which (generally) means its limited to one year. The difference between a misdemeanor and a felony is pretty significant for reasons aside from the length of the jail term (which he's unlikely to serve much of anyway). Felons lose a variety of civil rights for life, absent a court action restoring them. It also disqualifies you from many professions, and is a significant obstacle, at the very least, to any employment in many fields. For that reason, I think there's a hesitation to charge young people with felonies. Or at least some young people. There'd certainly be a lot of hesitation by the accused about pleading guilty to a felony.

In other states, criminally negligent homicide (whether called by that name, or some other name for the same offense) is a felony.

Incidentally, here's the wording from the Wyoming statute defining criminal negligence (which, if it causes a death, constitutes criminally negligent homicide):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyoming Law
A person acts with criminal negligence when, through a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise, he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the harm he is accused of causing will occur, and the harm results. The risk shall be of such nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.
From a quick look at the Wyoming criminal statutes, it looks like the next level of homicide they could have charged him with here would've been manslaughter::

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyoming Law
if he unlawfully kills any human being without malice, expressed or implied ... [i]nvoluntarily, but recklessly.
That doesn't tell you a ton: you'd really need to review case law to determine what behavior constitutes the sortly of recklessness that would support a manslaughter conviction.

Incidentally, since it's been raised by others, there is a Wyoming criminal statute that directly addresses dangerous skiing. A person may be found guilty of misdemeanor, punishable by up to 20 days imprisonment, if he skis "in reckless disregard of his safety or the safety of others."
post #67 of 114
u guys act like he had to be snowboarding out of control to hit her, slopes are very crowded sometimes and when a skier is going down an experienced mountain slowly turning going from side to side of the mountain it is hard to avoid a crash...im not saying that is what happened im just saying u can be in control of your snowboard and still crash into someone...this happened twice at jackson hole before dodas crash and one of the times it was someone who worked there and both got off free...why are we setting an example of him
post #68 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
im just saying u can be in control of your snowboard and still crash into someone
Nonsense.
post #69 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
u guys act like he had to be snowboarding out of control to hit her, slopes are very crowded sometimes and when a skier is going down an experienced mountain slowly turning going from side to side of the mountain it is hard to avoid a crash...im not saying that is what happened im just saying u can be in control of your snowboard and still crash into someone...this happened twice at jackson hole before dodas crash and one of the times it was someone who worked there and both got off free...why are we setting an example of him
Dude, I hope you are wearing you asbestos snowboarding suit. I have a feeling you are going to need it.
post #70 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
u guys act like he had to be snowboarding out of control to hit her, slopes are very crowded sometimes and when a skier is going down an experienced mountain slowly turning going from side to side of the mountain it is hard to avoid a crash...im not saying that is what happened im just saying u can be in control of your snowboard and still crash into someone...
Either:

1) This is a typical summertime, nothing-else-to-do troll (note this guy has exactly one post to his name), OR

2) "Turkey1" has the executive function and decision-making ability of a low-functioning, sub-20 y.o. male, and doesn't understand that the prime definition of being in control is not to hit anyone else, taking into account reasonable variability in the movement of others.

The subject of "what is control" has been discussed to death. I vote for not dignifying this latest comment by any further discussion, whether troll or not.

Tom / PM
post #71 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
im not saying that is what happened ...
Good, because that isn't what happened.
post #72 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan
Either:

1) This is a typical summertime, nothing-else-to-do troll (note this guy has exactly one post to his name), OR



Tom / PM
Welcome to EPIC turkey!
post #73 of 114
Check out the bios of most of our nation's founders. Sixteen used to be mature; an appropriate age to marry, shoot people in a war, live on your own, borrow money, start your own business, take responsibilities for your own actions. Still is in most of the world. Must be some wild new mutation at work in the U.S. that keeps us immature so much longer. Wonder if it's related to the one that keeps extending middle age 5 years past the oldest boomer...
post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond
Check out the bios of most of our nation's founders. Sixteen used to be mature; an appropriate age to marry, shoot people in a war, live on your own, borrow money, start your own business, take responsibilities for your own actions. Still is in most of the world. Must be some wild new mutation at work in the U.S. that keeps us immature so much longer. Wonder if it's related to the one that keeps extending middle age 5 years past the oldest boomer...
Maturity is evidenced by behavior. Most 16 year olds show they need more time to define themselves. It has nothing to do with percieved maturity but actual maturity through actions and ability to handle responsibility.
post #75 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond

Sixteen used to be mature; an appropriate age to marry, shoot people in a war, live on your own, borrow money, start your own business, take responsibilities for your own actions.
Yes, but... that was before fast cars, snowboards, fast women and computer games!
post #76 of 114
This trajedy is certainly the result of an 'attitude' the boarder displayed prior to the fatal collision. ...I contend that the 'behind the scenes' negotiation is more strongly linked to the ramifications of the 'attitude' problem than the actual sentence for the crime.

When you look at the big picture, you have to admit that JHMR legally shares some of the guilt in this incident. The niche they hold in the ski world is promoting a ski area with 'attitude'. ....And when a 16 year old literally gets 'drunk' on this attitude and winds up killing someone, management shares responsibility. ...I sense this is a balancing act among local business and legal interests to smooth the whole thing over with as little antagonism as possible from either side of the fence!

I would like to know what the record for mountain enforcement of 'out of control' behavior was in the months prior to this incident. I sense this one statistic would easily sway any jury that this young person was less at fault in the death of the victim than the policies and their enforcement at JHMR.

...I suspect some of this should show up in civil court!

And, like the rest of you; I lament the senseless death, AND the wasted future of this young person.
post #77 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
This trajedy is certainly the result of an 'attitude' the boarder displayed prior to the fatal collision. ...I contend that the 'behind the scenes' negotiation is more strongly linked to the ramifications of the 'attitude' problem than the actual sentence for the crime.

When you look at the big picture, you have to admit that JHMR legally shares some of the guilt in this incident. The niche they hold in the ski world is promoting a ski area with 'attitude'. ....And when a 16 year old literally gets 'drunk' on this attitude and winds up killing someone, management shares responsibility. ...I sense this is a balancing act among local business and legal interests to smooth the whole thing over with as little antagonism as possible from either side of the fence!

I would like to know what the record for mountain enforcement of 'out of control' behavior was in the months prior to this incident. I sense this one statistic would easily sway any jury that this young person was less at fault in the death of the victim than the policies and their enforcement at JHMR.

...I suspect some of this should show up in civil court!

And, like the rest of you; I lament the senseless death, AND the wasted future of this young person.
Gee, does that mean I stand to gain by suing the motorcycle magazines when I crash my motorcycle doing a buck ten on the back concession?
post #78 of 114
Thread Starter 
The snowboarder officially filed his guilty plea earlier this week. A sentencing date has not been set yet.

You can read the full story here.
post #79 of 114
where were u guys when this same thing happened 2 times at jackson hole in the same year of dodas crash...one of them was a person that worked there and he got off free...why dont u let the court decide the punishment and stop talking about this like u actually kno what happened...do u guys really have nothing better to do then badmouth an 18 year old kid who u dont even kno
post #80 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
where were u guys when this same thing happened 2 times at jackson hole in the same year of dodas crash...one of them was a person that worked there and he got off free...
Ummm, turk?

I also work there. I don't seem to recall two other times that season when an innocent young woman was struck and killed by a snowboarder who was straghtlining out of control at over 47 miles an hour.

Could you provide a little documentation to back up that claim?
post #81 of 114
That speed makes the kids claim of being "in control" even that much more suspect. Possibly one of the reasons to plead it out instead of chance a jury trial, eh?

I just read the link. Sounds like the local investigator did a very good job of documenting what probably took place. From what is written in that brief article, it appears the guy had no defense what so ever---and he knew it.
post #82 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey1
where were u guys when this same thing happened 2 times at jackson hole in the same year of dodas crash...one of them was a person that worked there and he got off free...why dont u let the court decide the punishment and stop talking about this like u actually kno what happened...do u guys really have nothing better to do then badmouth an 18 year old kid who u dont even kno
Where were you guys when this same thing happened two times at Jackson Hole during the same year as Doda's crash? One of them was a person that worked there and he got off free. Why dont you let the court decide the punishment and stop talking about this as though you actually know what happened? Do you guys really have nothing better to do than to badmouth an 18 year-old kid that you dont even know?
post #83 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
...JHMR legally shares some of the guilt in this incident. The niche they hold in the ski world is promoting a ski area with 'attitude'. ....And when a 16 year old literally gets 'drunk' on this attitude and winds up killing someone, management shares responsibility.
So now management has a role as babysitter, too?

I think JHMR is very responsible. They heavily promote "Know The Code" and other safety messages using lift and lift post signage, tickets, trail maps and their website:

http://www.jacksonhole.com/info/ski.safety.asp

Promoting their unique and extreme terrain does not mean they promote recklessness. I have personally seen Ski Patrol pull passes for overt violations of:


1. Always stay in control. Be able to stop or avoid other people or objects. 2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.

Management and ski patrol will never be able to monitor or predict all behavior.

It is the so-called parents of this kid that share in this homicide and should be embarrassed by their lack of stewardship.

Hank
post #84 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Where were you guys when this same thing happened two times at Jackson Hole during the same year as Doda's crash? One of them was a person that worked there and he got off free. Why dont you let the court decide the punishment and stop talking about this as though you actually know what happened? Do you guys really have nothing better to do than to badmouth an 18 year-old kid that you dont even know?
Thanks J.
Your translator works better than the one I used to translate some latin last week

What could be the best side effect from this is that others tragedies like that hopefully can be avoided by the awareness created.
Has Jackson Hole changed or stepped up their enforcement of the code?

Could areas where expected faster skiing/snowboarding be posted so there is separation from the faster and the slower ?

A place for the speedy to have more room and a warning for those that don't /can't /won't ski that fast that their risk is higher there.

If you have areas of protection for each group maybe they can play separated and both be safer.

Reckless skiing is still defined so this shouldn't be a license for that but it would let some know what the expectations are for those around them
post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoback Hank
So now management has a role as babysitter, too?

Hank

Enforcement for the safety of the public is a HUGE issue in any liability cases. Many ski areas like to operate in the 'gray zone' where you do lip service with little or no enforcement. ...It is probably a good argument that the owner who operates for a profit(in this case, JHMR), must convince concerned parties that their part in the prevention of this incident was more than 'lip service'. It's a common situation in all venues, regardless of socalled 'free passes' operators such as ski areas claim to have on patron safety.

...If you think that is 'babysitting', you at least need to let the general public know that you are willingly putting them at that level of risk!

~
post #86 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
Enforcement for the safety of the public is a HUGE issue in any liability cases. Many ski areas like to operate in the 'gray zone' where you do lip service with little or no enforcement. ...It is probably a good argument that the owner who operates for a profit(in this case, JHMR), must convince concerned parties that their part in the prevention of this incident was more than 'lip service'. It's a common situation in all venues, regardless of socalled 'free passes' operators such as ski areas claim to have on patron safety.

...If you think that is 'babysitting', you at least need to let the general public know that you are willingly putting them at that level of risk!

~
I'm curious about the basis for your expertise in tort law.
post #87 of 114
Personally I've found JHMR to be very safety-conscious, from the conspicuous signage, the patrol, and the ski & snowboard school having a real emphasis on teaching safe skiing & riding. And, despite the testosterone and posing that used to go with the departed tram, in general it has a very mellow feel. My daughter came back from a week there and remarked with no prompting that is was so nice skiing somewhere where people weren't constantly out of control. I can't see what more people would reasonably have them do.

While I think a criminal sentence was appropriate in this case, it also interesting how many people are convinced that their own teenagers will never do anything stupid and that they themselves are without sin.
post #88 of 114
For you folks that are pointing some of the blame at JHMR. I for one feel extremely safe skiing at JH compared to ski areas back east. The reason is very simple. The number of acres per skier ratio.

I know that on their best days JHMR may have somewhere around 6000 skiers give or take a few thousand. This is very similar to ski areas back east. In talking to JHMR ski patrol their accident rate per day is also very similar to many ski areas back east with JHMR accident rate being a tad lower. The difference of course is JHMR provides 2500 acres to ski on and back east they provide 175 to 250 acres to ski on for the same number of skiers. Anytime random moving objests have less space to move around in, the math says their is a significant higher probability for collisions. Maybe PM can help us out with the math comparison on this one.

Since this kid is from Maryland, there is reasonable chance he has had some collisions on the east coast or the very least near misses while snowboarding on the east coast. Maybe why the quick plea of guilty because a trial may uncover this information.
post #89 of 114
"There but for the grace of God go I."

I think that many people who are self-taught run the risk of going there. They just don't think. If you take lessons, chances are the your instructor will teach you a little about the risk. I taught myself to ski. Though I was never so stupid as to believe that being unable to turn to avoid a collision and being in control were the same thing, I did take stupid risks without even thinking that I could kill someone. I was in my twenties, when I was flying down between the sparcely spaced trees at Mt. Washington when I suddenly found myself flying onto a trail at about 65 mph. In my defence (and a poor one at that), I didn't know there was a trail there. In those days I was invincible and thought myself capable of handling anything that the mountain could throw at me at any speed. An older gentleman who was about 50 feet up the trail also saw me. We eventualy met at the top of the mountain, and he mentioned to me that I could kill someone flying onto a trail out of the woods at head height, and that when your skis are 5 feet off the ground, you can not turn. I just didn't think! I had to admit that he was right, and skied more carefully from then on. Though I still pushed my luck quite a bit on trails, I didn't ski quite so "blind"; it took another incident involving a ridge in flat light to slow me down to my current "cautious" level of skiing.

Thank you kind Sir from saving me from such a fate as this Jackson snowboarder.
post #90 of 114
This incident is what scares me about skiing - not falling or twisting my knee or breaking a leg- but getting injured/killed/maimed by an out of control boarder or skier who is young and filled with testosterone and no respect for the rules or those around him. Unfortunately with the young crowd this is the rule rather than the exception. Too many young folks think they are in some X Games boarder video.

One penalty I think should be imposed is a lifetime ban from skiing or boarding on any public mountain anywhere. I don't know if the judge has the power to impose such an ammendment to the sentence but if he could I would say it would be a good option in addition to whatever penalty is handed out. These young out of control types need to be removed from the slopes permanently. Thats the way to solve the problem.
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