EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › are wide skis good or bad for the industry?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

are wide skis good or bad for the industry? - Page 3

post #61 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618
You still have that same problem in the midwest and the east, with skiers buying race skis when they very obviously can't handle them- the most common examples being Nastar and new high school racers who insist that becasue a race ski is the right tool for a race course in the hands of an expert that it's obviously the right tool for them... I don't understand why everyone is insisting that choosing a fat ski is the only mistake a new skier can make when selecting skis.

Anyone will be held back by the incorrect ski for the job. That includes anyone who swears that they ski pow just as well on a 70mm ski as the expert on a 90mm ski... they just don't know it if they've never tried the right tool. The same way a first timer will never know the difference if they start on a 90mm ski having never tried a more appropriate 70mm ski.
I think those are very good observations. Selling skis (or many other things for that matter) is understandably a lot about catering to consumers wants rather than needs. Selling wider skis now to on-piste skiers will allow for selling "improved", "high performance" narrower skis a few seasons from now. Some may use wider skis to expand the types of terrain they ski but I suspect they will be something of a minority unless the skiing demographic changes significantly.
post #62 of 117
Surely more and more skiers are wanting to get into the backcountry. Alot of skiers such as myself even like skiing marginally off-piste ie: besides the piste, wider skis have helped to open this market up to a wider cross-section of the skier community. However it does bring up the thought of ill-educated skiers venturing into the backcountry with no avalance awareness or without the appropriate equipment (transceiver, probe, shovel etc). This is obviously very dangerous and the thought that their k2 seths will keep em right is just ludicrous.
post #63 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider
Carving is just one of many ways to have fun decending a hill. I could be completely wrong, but I don't see carving skills being pursued by a majority of the expert skiers on the hill, especially if you go off piste.

Wide skis in longer lengths, and having very little side cut, or even reverse sidecut, offer a platform for landing hucks, straightlining, and slipping hop turns on very steep terrain. There is a real disconnect between people here who think carving is the end-all be-all in skiing, and folks that have played with carving, but moved to use the newest wide tools and new shapes to do completely different things. I think a skier is better for knowing carving skills, but it is just one technique and approach to descent for an expert. The wider skis have opened new terrain and approaches to technical lines. A quiver of skis is becoming more common among good skiers. That has to be good for the ski industry.

It could be that less experienced skiers starting out on wide skis are short-changing themselves on experiencing the thrill of high G carved turns. OTOH, the adrenalin rush jumping off cornices and going fast on variable terrain on WIDE skis (110 mm+), could make it so the thrill of carving seems less important.

The majority of skiers will continue to seek groomed runs with mild slopes and a resort with a full range of services. For these people, are wide skis an advantage? No, and they will continue to buy all mountain carvers or intermediate mid-fats in the 66 to 75 width range.
Did I mention you are now officially my idol after this post.....
post #64 of 117
Thread Starter 
Cirquerider- The vast, I mean vast majority of skiers out there do not have access to real OB skiing. In addition, I don't think you would want any new, inexperienced skiers jumping off cornices? The initial discussion was whether or not wider skis were good for new or recreational skiers. The average skier gets 7.5 days in per season. The issue or question is does it matter if these folks get better? Would they ski more if they developed higher level of skills and enjoyed skiing more, enabling them to get to more terrain or does it just not matter as they are never going to be better skiers?
post #65 of 117
What matters is if they have fun. If they have fun on 100 mm underfoot skis and they ski like crap who cares as long as they are not a threat to other people. I carve turns sometimes, when I need to turn to get on a cat track that leads to some untracked pow in the woods......
post #66 of 117
Just for fun, I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate.

Lets go all the way and imagine just how bad it would be if we started all never-ever skiers on 90 mm wide, shorties with a mid-teen sidecut radius. Instead of the currently favored PSIA progressions for skiers, we took them down a path more similar to what we teach never-ever boarders – lots more sideslipping, edge control and rapid, large pivoting moves early in their instruction.

Then, once these folks had the basic survival skills, and could push snow down the mountain as well as any novice boarder , we could then teach them to link turns, develop higher edge angles, start skiing the slow line fast, etc.

My guess is that with a progression like this, you would entice many more of these never-ever potential skiers into returning because, just like with boarding, these newbie skiers would see a relatively fast rise to intermediate status. The more timid ones would feel “more stable” on the wider skis and have immediate speed control on easy terrain, while the more daring newbies could “ski” (ie, windshield wiper turns and edge sets) steeper terrain and get to boast about it. In fact, isn’t this exactly the way it used to be in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s when retention was at an all time high?

OK, I realize that this would lead to:

1. Lots more snow getting pushed off the mountain and into horrible shaped bumps

2. Even more kids than now bombing green runs by going straight down then fall line, then throwing in a speed check every few hundred feet.

3. More potential for collisions between the folks in #2 and more advanced skiers carving down the same trail.

4. Students taught this way would have to spend more time unlearning the early emphasis on rotary when they want to move on to more advanced skiing, etc. etc.

BUT, back to the original question: Is it good for the economic health of the sport?

Advanced skiers such as those in this thread can rant and rave all they want about this abomination and reversion to prehistoric methods, but my guess is that with wide skis and the above learning progression, we would greatly increase retention and numbers for many, but not all of the same reasons boarding was/is a success.

From a purely economic POV, early retention is the key, and anything we can do to increase it will boost numbers throughout all skill levels in the learning pipeline. More people will “fall in love” with skiing after their first exposure, so the number of people visiting the resorts will increase, as will the number of times a given individual returns per season. These people will buy food, lodging, real estate, etc. They will carry the message back to their friends about “how easy it is”. Ski schools will be busy with both the never-evers who want to try the new equipment and instructional methods, as well as with intermediates who want to move on past windshield wiper turns, and the world will once again be happy.

While those of us in this thread, either advanced recreational skiers or pros, have already bemoaned bits and pieces of the sacrilege I just described, I see nothing in this thread to indicate that the expected economic benefits wouldn’t occur.

Most of the arguments given against starting newbies on fats are that such skiers won’t progress as fast or as far as someone on normal skis and given a traditional learning progression. While this is true for any given individual who stays with the sport, unfortunately, the economic reality is that there needs to be such individuals in the first place. If there is low early attraction and retention, there will be few people in the pipeline, so quicker skill development won’t matter one wit in the overall economics.

In fact, I would go further and wonder if one of the reasons skiing was so popular from the 1960’s through the ‘80’s was that the bar was lower with respect to skill. It was OK to snowplow. It was more than OK to ski the greens and blues. If you went skiing at all, you were regarded with a bit of awe by your non-skiing family and friends, no matter what you did on the hill. Nowdays, expectations are incredibly higher, and if you are a young guy and can’t compete in an extreme skiing competition after a few times on skis, you might as well cut your loses and get out of the sport “cuz your nothing but a loser”. I think that managing expectations is an important goal for the ski industry. It won’t be simple, but telling newbie skiers that it’s OK to use “cheater” gear (ie, wider in addition to shorter), and not carve for your first couple of weeks on skis is just fine.

An obvious question is how is the above suggestion essentially different from the ill-fated GLM method which introduced many inefficiencies into ski technique and often ended with the student in an intermediate rut. Times have changed since then. As TheRusty pointed out earlier this year, (http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...97&postcount=8 ), new methods of construction have allowed much higher levels of performance in the skis. The teaching progression proposed above would obviously make use of improved equipment. In addition, and perhaps even more importantly, in 2006, we are now VERY aware that the students that are clearly in skiing for the long haul would need to get converted relatively quickly over to using skis they way they were designed to be used (sliding forward, not sideways) to avoid the intermediate “rut”. Thus, unambiguously dead-end movements such as use of opposite edges vs. corresponding edges (snowplow vs gliding wedge), would never be taught.

Now that I've painted the large target on my back, I'll stand perfectly still while ya'll take aim.

Tom / PM

[/Devil’sAdvocateMode = OFF]

PS (in edit) – As per Alfonse’s comment, the newbies might actually have more fun using the above approach.
post #67 of 117
Tom / PM,
Your examination of the issues makes a lot of sense, as always. Economically, it's purely about how much fun those beginners have on their first or second day. Perhaps ski-boards (aka "Snowblades") should be more widely used for never-evers, for that reason.
Just one problem: perhaps it will be tough to put the "carving" genie back into the bottle. As soon as one of the newbies buys a ski mag (or goes on to a website!), they're going to see the "c word" mentioned.
post #68 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
...Just one problem: perhaps it will be tough to put the "carving" genie back into the bottle. As soon as one of the newbies buys a ski mag (or goes on to a website!), they're going to see the "c word" mentioned.
That's OK. Once the hook is firmly set, let them buy all the ski mags and carving equipment they can lay their hands on.

BTW, there was one practical aspect of the proposal that I didn't mention: In my plan, once a newbie is past a level 3 or so (ie, the hook is set), they should be weaned off the fatties and put on narrower boards. This will require two sets of rental equipment, ie, money and space, things not in large supply at most resorts.

Tom / PM
post #69 of 117
PM:

I agree with pretty much everything you said but cannot accept the “evolution” of skiing in this direction as ultimately a good thing. Fat skis will reduce the learning curve and pump money into the industry at the expense of turning the sport into sliders and skidders to a much greater extent than it is now. You do not need to carve a turn to get down the hill and have a good time, but the resulting impact of intermediates on fat skis on the snow is to turn packed runs into ice and unpacked runs into ugly mogals and swept off “crud, which will ultimately lead to more equipment and technique changes to make “skiing” those conditions easier. Let’s just put everybody on skibobs and get it over with now.

Maybe I just resent the fact that I had to lean to carve a turn in order to master skiing “expert terrain” and intermediates on fat skis (and snowboarders) are now easily sideslipping down those runs and destroying the qualities I love about them. Making the sport easier is the economically driven goal of the industry, but at what cost to the soul of the sport?
post #70 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot
...Making the sport easier is the economically driven goal of the industry, but at what cost to the soul of the sport?
A decision to go in this direction is far above my pay grade, but as Martin pointed out, it may be hard to keep the carving genie in the bottle for the new people entering the sport.

In particular, all newbies have to do is try to sideslip for more than a few feet in heavy cut-up deep crud, and I guarantee you that it won't take them very long to figure out that skis work better when they are pointed in the direction they are moving. So, my proposal was for fatties just up to level 3 or so, then wean them.

Of course, some of them will never be weaned, but then again, these folks probably won't be too much in evidence in manky snow conditions. These are the folks that on a new snow day are complaining about too much snow and no grooming. :

Tom / PM
post #71 of 117
My point is that nice new powder is becoming "heavy-cut up deep crud" way faster than it use to before snowboards and fat skis. Time and again I have witnessed snowboarders and intermediates on fat skis massacring limited fresh powder runs by sideslipping all the steep sections, which never happened with skinny skis that required them to traverse in deep snow they couldn't ski. Good skiers are paying a high price for their fat skis, and it isn't all money.
post #72 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan
Of course, some of them will never be weaned, but then again, these folks probably won't be too much in evidence in manky snow conditions. These are the folks that on a new snow day are complaining about too much snow and no grooming. :
Ahem, so:

- The first day is always on hero snow

- The beginner has the physical fitness to make the large rotary movements and edge sets.

do I read that correctly?
post #73 of 117
Mudfoot raises a good point. Just 3 - 4 years ago, powder went past noon on steep lines and in trees. The scrubbing bubbles now cleanse most traces by 10:30, even on weekdays. Lots more people are competing for space in places they couldn't previously reach. Heck, 2-years ago I was raving how nice 6-stars were in the powder, compared to my Dynastar 4x4s:.

What Physicsman is saying though is that the early entry of intermediates to great terrain and snow may contribute to higher retention. Meanwhile, Mudfoot and I are working harder for pow turns on ultra-expensive excursions to the BC using wide skis, AT bindings, AT boots, beacon, shovel, probe pack etc; where the cost of entry is still high enough to keep the terrain semi-exclusive.

When I learned skiing, I had relatively straight narrow GS skis, terrible boots and learned to turn on the groomed. Powder skiing, when I got good enough, gave me access to places no one else was going in the 70s. I even bootpacked BC turns then (but no beacons). Anyway, good luck turning back the clock now that the wide ski genie is out...

I have another question. Who are the skiers carving today? Are they the ones who have progressed through modern ski school, or are most of us experienced skiers that expanded our technique and added this tool when the gear changed? Is carving really the goal of a new skier; or is that something that becomes desireable long AFTER you have "conquered" the mountain? I say its the latter. Its an additional advanced tool, not the primary one needed to progress to the top of the hill. I think Tom's approach keeps more new skiers engaged until they see the value in higher technical skills.

edit: good discussion Finndog. I just voted to upgrade your thread rank
post #74 of 117
PM, is this the type of thing you were thinking of: http://www.salomonski.com/nz/product....asp?id=786534
(Dimensions are not listed on that webpage, but in my Salomon catalog they are: 112/76/102, length 120cm, radius 89.m.)
post #75 of 117

MB, is there a misplaced . in there (radius)?

My visual was more:
http://www.icelanticboards.com/at_boards.htm
140/105/130, length 143cm, radius ~13m
post #76 of 117
Wide skiers are definitely bad for the industry! They take up more room on the already crowded runs (especially in the east), tend to be less athletic and thus less predictable, and can have more control issues.

...what?

...wide skis? Oh...

Never mind...

post #77 of 117
MB, is there a misplaced . in there (radius)?
Yes, sorry, should be 8.9m. The dreaded wandering decimal point - that's why I could never be a physics man...
post #78 of 117
Being old enough to have skied in the stem-christy 60's, I have to say PhysicsMan has nailed it. The key is to help newbies have fun now, instead of worrying about their future edge habits.

But I don't blame instruction strategies or ski construction. It's our whole @!*#! culture. Like most of our other "recreational" sports, skiing has mutated from exuberant, usually sloppy participation, to what's been called "normative dissatisfaction." Eg, it's become normal to be unhappy with our skills, to constantly strive to carve better and handle more demanding terrain. "Intermediate" is only acceptable if you're passing through.

When did our entire sports culture get so much like work, so joyless? Why do so many of you pros worry so hard about whether windshield wiper turns on fats will retard future advancement? I have middle aged friends who are quite content to smear Z's down a blue run forever, and show no interest (gasp!) in lessons. They're increasingly objects of scorn in some circles, but guess what? They still buy lift tickets and fill condos and somehow enjoy their amputated skill sets just fine. The industry, in fact, depends on folks like these.

But they're older, and won't support the sport forever. As PM notes, kids are flocking to snowboards, where the joy quotient is higher (for now) and the culture less judgemental (for now) of mediocrity. If my back were stronger, I'd join them...
post #79 of 117
Thread Starter 
Beyond; I am an overachiever and never satified with anything (except my wife and dog). I always look for a better way to do everything primarilly because it's more enjoyable. Better skiing skills mean more quality time on the slopes. Mediocracy sucks. Regarding the Middle aged friend, the ski industy, or at least the ski manufacturers don't gain from the these folks who are still on Olin Mark IV's (Phil? Where are you?). They don't buy skis and boots and bindings and new jackets and helmets. They ski in the same stuff they bought in 1976 or maybe in the 80's.

I Agree with that the fun factor may be "good enough" to justify the wider skis but when you learn how to properly use the sidecut of a ski (CARVE), you can ski longer and harder with less effort. Won't this help folks to want to ski more days? I think some are only viewing carving as high speed GS maniacs and not intermediates and beginners on green slopes.

Edit to take out the term "old gieser"
post #80 of 117
Ron & Beyond,

My take on the debate is a little different. Average skiers, skiing normal conditions, would benefit from a 66 to 72mm wide ski with something like a 13 to 17 meter turn radius. This ski (think Head Monster iM 72, Fischer RX6, of Volkl 4*) can carve and skid and is versatile enough for variable snow without being useless on ice.

Many skiers enjoy only 5 to 10 ski days a year on the slopes and then remain on or near the recently groomed trails. Do these skiers need a ski wider than 74mm?

Cheers,

Michael
post #81 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog
(Phil? Where are you?).
There is so much I want to say here, except I hate to type.

We are looking for the inside out. We all here are skiers we look down a list like and we can say what each and every ski/binding/boot also. Joe and Jane Skier who get out once a week have no clue that their gear is obsolete, they don't know and quite frankly, don't care. Ignorence is bliss. When I was managing a ski shop, I remember a woman bringing her families gear in for a trip to Aspen. This was some old crap..not jsut old skis, but junk. I tried to give her options as renting or even buying new gear. I tried to explain that they were spending (upward of) $10,000 for this weekend, why not spend a few extra dollars to get even more out of it. I showed teh difference between her Rossignol Snowbird 2's and a Dynastar Max 2L (Yes, this was 1996) and why she would have more fun. I said even renting on the mountain was better than these old skis, to show her that I was willing to give up the tuning of these old boards to help her and that I was not jsut trying to sell her something.

We are skiing geeks here. You can go to any "enthusiest" forum, even computers, cars, widgets, broccoli, PDA's what have you and you will find the same enthusiasm as we have here. We love skiing, we live for it...sorry to say, for 99% of the people out there it is just an "activity". We are the 1%'ers, the (skiing) lunatic fringe. Live with it.
post #82 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
We are skiing geeks here. You can go to any "enthusiast" forum, even computers, cars, widgets, broccoli, PDA's what have you and you will find the same enthusiasm as we have here. We love skiing, we live for it...sorry to say, for 99% of the people out there it is just an "activity". We are the 1%'ers, the (skiing) lunatic fringe. Live with it.
I wish people (non-bears) could understand that about me.


post #83 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
PM, is this the type of thing you were thinking of: http://www.salomonski.com/nz/product....asp?id=786534
(Dimensions are not listed on that webpage, but in my Salomon catalog they are: 112/76/102, length 120cm, radius 89.m.)
Pretty close ... To allow the newbies to pivot them like cafeteria trays for their 1st couple of days on groomed bunny slopes, one could go even wider, but probably when you start getting much above 90 mm, one would see serious width-related problems start to surface, eg, newbies stepping on one ski with the other, extra weight, truly too much torque required for some beginners to get them up on edge, etc.

IMHO, beween (say) 75 mm and 90, the increase in the feeling of stability, reduction in the probability of catching an edge, ease of doing pivot slips, increase in feedback from the skis to the leg muscles when the novice student does the right things to get them up on edge, etc. all outweigh the slight increase in the problems I mentioned at the end of the previous paragraph if you are still below 90 mm or so. I think such problems only become a significant factor for the newbies if you go above 90 mm or so.

Tom / PM

PS - I might also move the decimal point over one place in the 89 meter sidecut radius . Heck, that's even shallower than the 60 m. sidecut on my old Volkl Zebras.
post #84 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex
My visual was more:
http://www.icelanticboards.com/at_boards.htm
140/105/130, length 143cm, radius ~13m
: The radius is fine, but the length and waist width are on the upper end of the what I was considering for rank beginners. See my previous post to Martin for my thoughts on the tradeoffs.

Tom / PM
post #85 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv
...Do these skiers need a ski wider than 74mm?...
If you are talking about level 4 skiers and above, I completely agree with you that they don't need to (and shouldn't) go any wider than the low 70's for use on normal groomed slopes (ie, excluding park&pipe, etc.).

However, my suggestion was that for just the first day or two on skis for newbies (ie, level 1's, 2's, and maybe 3's) put "cafeteria trays" on their feet to realize the benefits I described in my message to Martin a few minutes ago in this thread.

My proposal is that once they get above a level 3-4, they are probably reasonably "hooked" on skiing, and its time to wean them over to more conventional widths.

Tom / PM
post #86 of 117

Gwm !!!!

PhysicsMan invents the "Graduated Width Method!" I'll have to get some "Wide Skis Suck" bumper stickers.
post #87 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot
PhysicsMan invents the "Graduated Width Method!" I'll have to get some "Wide Skis Suck" bumper stickers.
I love the name !!! You're down for 5% of the residuals if it ever catches on.

Tom / PM

PS - Aren't we supposed to do things like this on Epic in the summer?
post #88 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan

PS - Aren't we supposed to do things like this on Epic in the summer?
Absolutely!

Cheers,

Michael
post #89 of 117
Thread Starter 
My intent exactly! Mike, yes, on the groomed, there is no real benefit to go more than a 70. Considering most newbies will rent the first season or two, there is no reason to go wider even out west with 4" of pow or loose. THe Head 72 is a great ski for such a skier. Phil- where's the Aparagus enthusiast site? I want to see how long it takes others before their pee stinks after eating......
post #90 of 117
You guys bring up some interesting points. But using different variables. Barrettscv and Finndog: Absolutely right that a newbie "would benefit" more from a modest carver under say 72 mm. And definitely no one needs more than that width on groomed. But the language says it all. It assumes the point is to advance technically, to become a better skier sooner. For almost all of us here, yep. Self-evident. We're gloriously, neurotically caught up in wanting to improve our skill sets.

But I think PM is using a different metric, call it ease of entry. How do we help skiers up to level 4 have enough fun, on as many surfaces as possible, to keep them wanting more?

I'd add that back in the day, the enjoyment of skiing was more about terrain than skill. A good day was how many different places you skied, not how your railroad tracks looked. (Ever try carving on a Head Standard?)

But the same argument applies today: The B2 and the Pocket Rocket opened up lift-served backsides to skiers who never would have dared on their 68 mm intermediate carvers. So yes, these folks can irritate us by their very existence, especially when they tear up "our" pow and then brag about it at the local pub, but they have fun. They glimpse possibilities that they can get to. They come back next year for that new bowl, even if they spend most of the day on the groomed center. Are their extra bad habits that lethal? Or even that bad? (Another interesting thread topic.)

Far as buying new equipment, it's true my Z-skiing friends upgrade about every 5 years, compared to my annual money-hemorrhage. But I doubt that has much impact on the sport. I understand from industry types that the profits in ski resorts these days comes more from renting or selling resort-developed condos than from lift tickets. Unclear to me how anybody stays in business selling skis. Maybe we simply have too many companies making too many skis for too few skiers. (Keelty talks about this in a recent post at RealSkiers.) Either way, skiing doesn't depend on selling skis to regain its popularity. It depends on starters having fun...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › are wide skis good or bad for the industry?