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Bevels for Stoeckli Skis

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
I would like to get the factory edge and base bevel angles for:

- 2006 Laser SL
- 2005 PIT Stormrider Lite

I emailed the factory a few weeks ago but have not received a response.

Any advice on varying the angles from the factory settings would also be appreciated; FYI - we mainly ski on piste, and sometimes venture off piste when the conditions are "nice". We do not race.
post #2 of 29
Use the search feature and use .... Stockli ..... not the Euro spelling with the "e" ...... stockli bevel ...

When my kid is home next week .... give this a bump.
post #3 of 29
This is the site for the Australian importer and retailer
http://www.snowbizz.com.au/
email him (Fred) with your question. From memory, the bevel is usually 1 on the base and 2 on the sides, but Fred'll know what the specific ones are for your models.
post #4 of 29
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Ant. I have sent them an email. I will post the response here for anybody who might be interested.

Yuki - thanks for the suggestion - I did try it and got a heap of hits - but still working through the answers. One was more than "interesting" - if I read it correctly, it suggested an under-foot side bevel of 1 degree and 2 degrees at the tips. I cannot imagine how that could be done by machine and why you would do it anyway.
post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
...Snowbizz was quick! Fred's recommendation:

The tuning for your skis is as follows:
Base bevel SL .5deg side edge 88 deg
Pit 1 deg 88 deg
post #6 of 29
That's interesting! The PIT is the same (ish) as my old EasyRiders, and was 1 and 2 (some idiot did a really nasty 1 and 1 on it, and it was releasing on the bunny hill!).
I wonder if the SL angles mean that my SCs are also those angles? Suspect they might be. Quicker to edge, I guess.
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulmerhutte

Any advice on varying the angles from the factory settings would also be appreciated; FYI - we mainly ski on piste, and sometimes venture off piste when the conditions are "nice". We do not race.
in terms of advice here are a couple simple concepts.

1. the side should TYPICALLY be one degree different than the base. why? a 1/3 or 2/4 tune would certainly be sharp initially, however, it would also dull very, very fast.

2. the higher the base bevel the easier it will be to rotate (turn) the skis, hence, initiation will seem effortless. the downside is the ski will require more tipping or angle to engage in a turn.

in soft snow or ample snow the tune won't really matter. in reality you could ski a 0/0. at the other end of the spectrum is tony sears is a well known former europa cup racer who works as a trainer for bob barnes at keystone. bob tells the almost unbelievable tale that tony tunes his skis to a 10 degree base bevel. why? i can only assume he doesn't want the ski to engage until he has created particular movements/angles with his body.

tony can create those angles!

i have fiddled with various tunes over the years and prefer a 1/2. i don't de-tune the tips or tails. the reality is i'm not a good enough skier for it to really matter.

the skis i teach on have a 2/3 tune. they are a little easier to demo low end turns and are nice and skiddy in bumps.

hope that helps.
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
in soft snow or ample snow the tune won't really matter. in reality you could ski a 0/0. at the other end of the spectrum is tony sears is a well known former europa cup racer who works as a trainer for bob barnes at keystone. bob tells the almost unbelievable tale that tony tunes his skis to a 10 degree base bevel. why? i can only assume he doesn't want the ski to engage until he has created particular movements/angles with his body.

tony can create those angles!
...
hope that helps.
Peekchers wanted.
post #9 of 29
of the ski bases or tony skiing?

i'll bet bob has video of tony. i would argue he is one of the "technically best" skiers that i have ever seen.
post #10 of 29
Tony skiing. Seen lots of stockli bases already.
post #11 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy

1. the side should TYPICALLY be one degree different than the base. why? a 1/3 or 2/4 tune would certainly be sharp initially, however, it would also dull very, very fast.
This is a misnomer that I have never found to be true.

No one should ski on-piste with a 2 degree base bevel ever and particularly on a slalom ski. Max 1 degree base and ideally a 3 degree side edge.

the 3 degree side stays sharp just as long as a 2 degree but holds much better on hard snow. there is no downside to a 3 degree for more off piste skis either.

As far as creating angles. You can create the same angles on a .5, 1, 2 or more base edge bevel, it is just a matter of when you get to the edge initially.

I have skied on over base beveled skis and the are slippery, unpredictable and if you don't ski with extreme angles adn get way inside of your skis you can't carve. maybe a good teaching tool to help folks get their skis out from under their body, but no how, no way could I stand a steady diet on a daily basis. 1 degree is the best compromise for most skiers and that is why almost all skis call for a 1 degree base bevel by the factory.

Check out Mike de Santis' posts. i can't think of his screen name, but he owns Precision tuning centers and posted a lot on here at one time. he used to be the Volkl national tech rep or product manager. He wil confirm what i have posted here.

I have 2004-05 Laser WC SL. they are .5 & 3.

the ideal base bevel depends on the steepness of the slopes you will be skiing on. flatter slope = more bae bevel, steeper slope equals less. this was proven in ski Racing magazine, where they had the same racer on the same day ski with different bevels on different slopes and times them. the outcome was as I have stated. the flatter the slope the faster the skier with increased base bevel and vice-versa.

a .75 may be a really good all around base bevel. SVSt makes a .7 base beveler.
post #12 of 29
atomic man - yeah that is what I had on my old yellow SLR's....
post #13 of 29
Mike de Santis's screenname was skidoc! Check out his posts.
post #14 of 29
good, so I can go on using 1 and 2. I like that one.

actually, after using the Laser SCs all season, they still have the factory tune, and the edges are still sharp.
post #15 of 29
atomicman,

did you mean misconception as opposed to misnomer?

whatever you were trying to convey i'd love to hear more. is it that a ski with a more acute side bevel will dull more quickly than one less acute? if that is your contention i might agree that the degree (sorry no pun intended) that this occurs is appreciably less than one might believe. after all we are talking in theory about one degree.

if that is the case then i don't think one can have their cake and eat it too in terms of a more acute angle (1/3 vs 1/2) being all that much sharper.

i would also respectfully disagree with your contention that "no one should ski on a ski with a two degree base bevel".first of all plenty of folks do fo the very reason you cited. they want a ski to not engage as quickly and/or want to have the opportunity to redirect the ski prior to tipping/engagement.

you made my point well when you stated; "As far as creating angles. You can create the same angles on a .5, 1, 2 or more base edge bevel, it is just a matter of when you get to the edge initially."

you also reinforced my point when you said;"I have skied on over base beveled skis and the are slippery, unpredictable and if you don't ski with extreme angles adn get way inside of your skis you can't carve. maybe a good teaching tool to help folks get their skis out from under their body, but no how, no way could I stand a steady diet on a daily basis. 1 degree is the best compromise for most skiers and that is why almost all skis call for a 1 degree base bevel by the factory."

there are folks creating extreme angles and seeking to get their skis away from their body prior to the ski responding and hence they do tune to a higher base bevel. bob's trainer tony sears with a 10 degree base is certainly an extreme example. i wouldn't have believed such a thing if i hadn't seen tony ski. another example is bumps. the last thing i want is a ski that is hooky or that will hook up. i teach mostly bump lessons and i want the skiddy slippery ski that you describe.

it's merely my bias in bumps. it may not be your cup of tea.

so "no one skiing on piste on a base bevel greater than one degree"?
i will certainly agree that is fine for most skiers and that it is precisely why most skis come from the factory with a one degree base bevel. it is the compromise you cite. why? because most skiers are recreational and don't create much in the way of angles.
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
atomicman,

did you mean misconception as opposed to misnomer?

whatever you were trying to convey i'd love to hear more. is it that a ski with a more acute side bevel will dull more quickly than one less acute? if that is your contention i might agree that the degree (sorry no pun intended) that this occurs is appreciably less than one might believe. after all we are talking in theory about one degree.

if that is the case then i don't think one can have their cake and eat it too in terms of a more acute angle (1/3 vs 1/2) being all that much sharper.

i would also respectfully disagree with your contention that "no one should ski on a ski with a two degree base bevel".first of all plenty of folks do fo the very reason you cited. they want a ski to not engage as quickly and/or want to have the opportunity to redirect the ski prior to tipping/engagement.

you made my point well when you stated; "As far as creating angles. You can create the same angles on a .5, 1, 2 or more base edge bevel, it is just a matter of when you get to the edge initially."

you also reinforced my point when you said;"I have skied on over base beveled skis and the are slippery, unpredictable and if you don't ski with extreme angles adn get way inside of your skis you can't carve. maybe a good teaching tool to help folks get their skis out from under their body, but no how, no way could I stand a steady diet on a daily basis. 1 degree is the best compromise for most skiers and that is why almost all skis call for a 1 degree base bevel by the factory."

there are folks creating extreme angles and seeking to get their skis away from their body prior to the ski responding and hence they do tune to a higher base bevel. bob's trainer tony sears with a 10 degree base is certainly an extreme example. i wouldn't have believed such a thing if i hadn't seen tony ski. another example is bumps. the last thing i want is a ski that is hooky or that will hook up. i teach mostly bump lessons and i want the skiddy slippery ski that you describe.

it's merely my bias in bumps. it may not be your cup of tea.

so "no one skiing on piste on a base bevel greater than one degree"?
i will certainly agree that is fine for most skiers and that it is precisely why most skis come from the factory with a one degree base bevel. it is the compromise you cite. why? because most skiers are recreational and don't create much in the way of angles.
I am so sorry I used the wrong word! Misconception is a far better term.

1 degree base bevel is never "hooky" unless poorly tuned.

You are trying to tell me you can't flatten your skis and drift or slide sideways with a 1 degree base bevel in the bumps? Sorry, can't agree. You can do so with a .5. Maybe the folk who seem to have a problem with this need to work on their sideslipping and redirection skills. I find a .5 or a 1 redirects or sideslips fine. Again this not a function of the amount of base bevel, but the quality of the tune and the sharpness in the tip & taill not the base geometry. Afterall couldn't we all sideslip our skis back in the day on straight skis tuned at 0/0?edge Hell, yes!


In essence what your saying is more base bevel equates to less demanding, and you & others must not have the skill set to manage a .5 or 1 degree which is no doubt more demanding then a 2 or 10 degree, but by no means is a 1 degree limiting in any sense of the word in any conditions i have ever skied. A .5 can be very demanding, (exacting) on certain snow conditiions. But with touch and finesse' can allso be easily managed.

One does not need a 2 degree base bevel to ski the bumps smoothly & efficiently or a 10 degree to create extreme angles. If a one degree gets to edge quicker it also comes off edge more quickly. Think of how far you would have to move your ski to get off of a 10 degree base beveled edge to get back to neutral and then to the opposite side. why would nayone choose this as thier bevel of choice unless all they diid is ski deep powder?

In closing there are plenty of us out here and many on this forum who are very capable of skiing with high edge angles with a .5 or 1 degree and don't need a ridiculous crutch like a useless 2-10 degree base bevel to do so.
post #17 of 29
PS, In grouchy rustyguy form, you have chosen to correct my word choice as a form of condescension rather then comment on the subject at hand.

Typical!
post #18 of 29

ulmerhutte

One of the Stockli guys was doing some work on my son's SL's and he likes them. I think.

He liked them before and I think he likes them more now .... he tunes his own so they must have told him the settings.

One of the things that I did not like was the change of bevel as the ski progresses. I guess it would take a lot of patience and magic marker to duplicate a factory tune.
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
One of the Stockli guys was doing some work on my son's SL's and he likes them. I think.

He liked them before and I think he likes them more now .... he tunes his own so they must have told him the settings.

One of the things that I did not like was the change of bevel as the ski progresses. I guess it would take a lot of patience and magic marker to duplicate a factory tune.
Now that you mention it I do believe the laser SL comes 1 degree in the tip & tail and .5 under foot. Not my cup of tea either.
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 
Is there any known machine that will do 1 deg at tip and 0.5 at the tail, or does Stockli hand-tune their skis?

I am supposing there is not, and I should select one or the other of those bevels, or something in the middle?
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulmerhutte
Is there any known machine that will do 1 deg at tip and 0.5 at the tail, or does Stockli hand-tune their skis?

I am supposing there is not, and I should select one or the other of those bevels, or something in the middle?
it was 1 degree tip & tail. .5 degree underfoot.

I don't think there is a machine that does that but it is highly possible Stockli tunes some of the bases by hand.

Or they do the entire base at .5 and do the hand tuning in the tip & tail only to 1 degree. .
post #22 of 29
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
it was 1 degree tip & tail. .5 degree underfoot.

I don't think there is a machine that does that but it is highly possible Stockli tunes some of the bases by hand.

Or they do the entire base at .5 and do the hand tuning in the tip & tail only to 1 degree. .
There are a few automated machines from Wintersteiger and Montana that can do variable angle edge grinding. One of the Wintersteiger machines can do something crazy like 5 different zones. Stockli uses the Montana system.

post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by real9999
There are a few automated machines from Wintersteiger and Montana that can do variable angle edge grinding. One of the Wintersteiger machines can do something crazy like 5 different zones. Stockli uses the Montana system.

There ya go!
post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
it was 1 degree tip & tail. .5 degree underfoot.

I don't think there is a machine that does that but it is highly possible Stockli tunes some of the bases by hand.

Or they do the entire base at .5 and do the hand tuning in the tip & tail only to 1 degree. .
Sorry, typo on my part.

I had no idea there was some much to this topic - if the number of threads is any indicaiton - my head is starting to hurt. I think I will ask my ski shop if their machine can do the tip/under-foot/tail combo. If they cannot, I think I will go with 0.5 on the whole ski (ie the Laser SLs).
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulmerhutte
Sorry, typo on my part.

I had no idea there was some much to this topic - if the number of threads is any indicaiton - my head is starting to hurt. I think I will ask my ski shop if their machine can do the tip/under-foot/tail combo. If they cannot, I think I will go with 0.5 on the whole ski (ie the Laser SLs).
.5 is great staring point on a SL race ski. You can always increase it a bit at a time. if the .5 is too demanding, try a .7 and if that is stil too demanding try a 1 degree. do not go over a 1 degree.
post #27 of 29
here is the article on comparing different base bevels. Notice they used nothig over 1 degree!

http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...0Bevel%202.pdf
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
here is the article on comparing different base bevels. Notice they used nothig over 1 degree!

http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...0Bevel%202.pdf
and from the tognar site;

http://www.tognar.com/edge_tips_file...snowboard.html

the following quote, "A mogul skier who pivots their ski underfoot and doesn't want tips or tails to catch in the bumps might prefer a 1.5 degree bevel on both the base and side edges."

but what do those folks know
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
and from the tognar site;

http://www.tognar.com/edge_tips_file...snowboard.html

the following quote, "A mogul skier who pivots their ski underfoot and doesn't want tips or tails to catch in the bumps might prefer a 1.5 degree bevel on both the base and side edges."

but what do those folks know
aparrantly you chose to ignore thier chart on suggested base bevels by skill level on that page. It show nothing more then a 1 degree base bevel in all categories!

So Tognar is the end all be all in tuning, not! that stuff has been on their site for year!!!!

A 1.5 is a long way from a 2-10 base bevel, but glad to see your coming closer. I can pivot my .5/3 or or my 1 and 3 with no problem. I assume they mean a "MOGUL" skier (freestyler), not an all mountain skier that skis moguls as part of their normal travels.
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