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are moguls dead?

post #1 of 73
Thread Starter 
I noticed that we groomed all year but never thought too much of it due to the limited terrain that was open ..... weather and water restrictions.

Friend was going for his Level II and bemoaned the lack of moguls all year. I told him to go and spend a day up the road at Camelback since they used to have some killer bump runs, but when I visited that area a few days later ...... no bumps! The area rep indicated that they are grooming everything now.

Have the lawyers got to them or is this just market pressure? With the growing wave of boarders are they giving up terrain to them since you never see boarders in the bumps? :
post #2 of 73
There was/is not enough snow this year to keep bump runs around without grooming. The cover is too thin and you would be skiing on the grass in the troughs. So they have to groom it.

Jay Peak has plenty now after all the snow they got last week.
post #3 of 73
I've noticed this trend in the east a lot more over the recent years, not just in this snow deprived season we're having. Eug, is right of course, no snow leads to poor quality bump runs, but even last year it was tough to find them at some places. Even if the resorts groom half a run I'm ok with that. Why call a run black if you are not going to let it bump up?
post #4 of 73
I talked to an old high school buddy who is the head groomer at a resort out west. I was commenting on how much they don't groom in my section of Montana & how I love it. His reply was that he's been pressured to groom more terrain where he's at so boarders can get down the runs. I've always joked that I wouldn't take up boarding because they can't do ice or moguls & unfortunately that fact is affecting how they maintain our ski areas.
post #5 of 73
I really wouldn't go as far as saying this is a boarder impacted issue - the fact is the vast majority of skiers can't ski them either, so resorts cater to these people as well. I asked an ambassador on the lift ride up as to why not a single run was bumped up that day, and he told me it was simply because the majority of people out there don't want it that way.
post #6 of 73
It is not so much a case of customer expectations as it is economics. The ski areas have been spending huge amounts of money on the summer storage of moguls and the bean counters have taken over to show a profit to the investors.

Our conditions in Vermont have been so icey that ungroomed slopes have been frozen solid. Nobody likes those bumps.

With enough snow, I like the half and half grooming/bumps as it gives anyone the chance to give them a try. Most area have the "Bump Run" for the mogul masters.

post #7 of 73
eug is right on this one.It's a snow managment and snow preservation issue.If resorts wanted to make skiing easier by grooming everything in sight. Deer Valley would be the first to make corduroy every last run!Trust me on this Deer Valley has some vary long and challenging mogul runs.Most resorts in the West are adding challenging terrain.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 25, 2002 12:16 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Utah49 ]</font>
post #8 of 73
As a relatively unskilled skier I don't like moguls but in my experience the vast majority of skiers and boarders tend to share my sentiments. During a week of little snow but great visiblility at Whistler I noticed 80 percent of the traffic on groomed runs and 20 percent off of it. Their "thousands of acres" of terrain were effectively shrunken down to groomed areas. This led to incredible traffic in the mere mortal areas. One of the main reasons I'm looking forward to improving is so I can ski the uncrowded areas effectively! skidoc
post #9 of 73
Someone said this in another thread.You paid to use the whole Mountain so might as well learn how to use all of it.Doc I like your attitude! Learning to Skii the whole Mountain is alot of fun!With some help from here and a good Instrutor or two You can make the whole Mountain your Playground.You can become one of that 20%.Now repeat after me "Bumps are our friends.Bumps are our friends"

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 25, 2002 02:11 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Utah49 ]</font>
post #10 of 73
yeah, Utah introduced me to a few of his "friends" in December.
With friends like those...
(You know the rest.)
post #11 of 73
I was on a chair with a couple of ladies yesterday and they were complaining how Jay Peak did not groom its trails after 20 inch dump. Basically there was not a single groomed run in the morning. I am sure they groomed something last night, but on a powder morning they left it all untouched.

skidoc: it really not crowded once you get off the beaten path.
post #12 of 73
There's a mogul on the Cresent Run with Ryan's name on it.
post #13 of 73
not my name, my face print.
post #14 of 73
I was going to say face print But after that 8 year old punk took care of you I didn't want to be that mean
post #15 of 73
Thread Starter 
It sounded like the area that I refered to had eliminated the bumps for several years now. If this is a growing trend it has me a bit worried.

After a hip injury several years ago I have been avoiding moguls and promised myself that I would work at least one bump run a day this year.

This year I was looking but not finding .....
and hope the trend does not continue.
post #16 of 73
What's up with people being scared of bumps? Doesn't riding all that groomed stuff get boring? Mix it up, ride the bumps all morning ride the blues after lunch to rest your legs. Personally I would like to see all grooming machines parked on the mountain permanently so snow can build up on them and create large manmade bumps and jumps.
post #17 of 73
SCSA said that when it snows hard, the snowboarders sitting in the snow become moguls.
post #18 of 73
I board, switched over full-time about 8-9 years ago and I love muguls...just as long as they are relatively soft. But you're right, icy bumps kill me and I avoid them at all costs. I'll traverse out of them if nothing else.

However, like somebody else said, very few skiers go in the bumps either. Generally speaking, I'd say maybe 5% of the skiers out there really know how to run a bump run. Most are out there hacking up the run like an incompetent boarder.

I personally spend my time in the trees and searching for powder stashes but most people like to stay on the groomers. I think there are several reasons for this...people don't want to put in too much effort when they are taking an average of one (7) day trip per season and the other is safety. It's much safer to stay on the nice cordouroy, crud is most peoples nightmare.
post #19 of 73
Out here in the PNWest I have noticed a serious decline in the number of mogul runs and the quality of the remaining mogul runs. 10 or 15 years ago, many runs were never groomed, primarily because they did not have snow cats which could handle the steepness of those runs. These runs grew serious bumps, but also had serious spring season bare patches. About 5 or 6 years ago resorts began partial run grooming of the traditional bump runs (not the really steep stuff). This helped with the late season snow cover but resulted in degraded mogul quality. Now with winch cats, the areas have the ability to groom almost anything and since they spent the $$$ on the winch, they are going to get their $$$ worth.

I also agree that few skiers and fewer snowboarders can ski the bumps. This places additional pressure on the resorts to groom as much as possible to provide the greatest experience for the largest number of skiers.

I used to agree with the snow preservation argument, but no more. Last year the PNWest had a very low overall base of snow (Mt. Hood Meadows had 75 to 100”). I agreed then that the prime objective was to preserve snow for spring skiing. This year Meadows has 217 “, Mt. Bachelor has 160”, and Timberline has 261”. That’s right more than 20’ of snow as a base. Snow preservation is not an issue. We will have snow long after the skiers switch to summer sports. Our season will end when it is not economically viable to run the lifts. But still they groom like they are possessed.

The new shaped skis are nifty but I do not see any more expert skiers today than I saw 20 years ago. The intermediates do have more fun now, but they still don’t want steeps, moguls, chutes, or powder. They want corduroy and lots of it. And that’s what the resorts are giving them.

The only solution to the mogul dilemma is to write to the ski areas and ask that they leave some mogul runs available. If there is a sufficient response in your area, you will likely see a positive response. Otherwise, further reductions are inevitable.
post #20 of 73
I'm not the greatest in the bumps but I practice when ever they are available and soft.

This year in the east grooming has been manditory. Snow followed by rain followed by quick freezes has left any ungroomed terrain an icy mess. Hell MRG groomed the Chute (I'm told for the first time since 1982).

Last season MRG would groom many trails before large snowfalls were predicted. This allowed powder skiing and the bumps were back by afternoon.

Jay does much more grooming now than in the past but they still seem to leave enough bump runs (and the woods) for the people who want them.

Not a good trend but one which will likely not reverse (at most resorts).
post #21 of 73
Hey, it seems that this season you guys are learning what bumps are like all the time in NZ - rock hard!!!!
post #22 of 73
There are PLENTY of "never-groomed" bump runs in Tahoe.

Too many, maybe. I'm icing my knees...
post #23 of 73
If 90% of skiers don't want bumps, then 90% of runs should be groomed. Surely the ideal is to try and keep everybody happy, and spread out your visitors equally among all your trails. There are some wide runs we saw in Val d'Isere where they groom half of the run and let the bumps grow on the other half, which seems a good compromise to me.
post #24 of 73
I think this trend is more pronounced on the east coast than out west. Most places I've visted out west have ample bump runs (of course this is probably a function of the greater amount of terrain at the western resorts).

While I understand most resorts catering to the will of the majority, it wouldn't hurt to do as Frances suggests and groom only half the run, would it?
post #25 of 73
I think Llama is right this must be an East coast trend, here in the west the bumps are alive and well and there never seems to be a shortage of people skiing them in all conditions. Go to Vail and hit Highline trail and watch the experts and novices doing their best to ride the zipper line down the mile and a half of perfect bumps.
post #26 of 73
Let's return to the question, please.
In 40+ years of skiing I've never seen a mogul that doesn't grow, which leads me to believe that they're all very much live, rather than dead.
But, in common with 90 per cent of posters to this thread, I've seen thousands of them squashed.
Then again, you can't keep a good mogul down. They always rise from the grave.
Don't they?
post #27 of 73
Mary Jane bumps are very much alive and well.
post #28 of 73
I think it was Mark Twain, that mogul of American literature, who once said "Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
Perhaps the consensus of this thread is similar.

(that was the English spelling of 'rumours'. Sorry)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 26, 2002 02:50 PM: Message edited 1 time, by David Goldsmith ]</font>
post #29 of 73
all of us easterners know that due to the poor season, the resorts are selling of their stocks of moguls to western resorts to try and cut their losses on this terrible ski season
post #30 of 73
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frances:
[QB]If 90% of skiers don't want bumps, then 90% of runs should be groomed.QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

90% groomed? that would be hell on earth. There is now way that an ungroomed run could accomodate the same # of skiers as a groomed run anyway. Experts want/need more space to ski at a higher level.
btw there are way too many beginners at whistler. What's the point of skiing such an awesome mountain when you're ganna stick to the greens? You're not gonna improve faster if you ski at a bigger mountain. Stick to smaller resorts, so that experts can take full advantage of the mountain, instead of standing in lift lines. Some golf courses don't let beginners play, maybe skiing should be the same. Maybe i'm just being an *******, but that's my 2cents
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