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Counter-Rotation....the Rules. - Page 2

post #31 of 36
It was here on Epic, that someone posted somthing about pointing the belly/navel. Distant memory.... certainly not from elsewhere....
post #32 of 36
Skidude72,

In post#11 above you specifically asked…
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidude72
Oh god........How could you possibly turn your feet 10 degrees, and then have 11 degrees of counter without doing extra moves?
I was just answering your question - specifically - with how it could occur.

Can independent leg steering (aka: fulcrum turning) be used in perfect isolation to create 10-degrees of foot-twist with no twisting of the upper body at all? Sure! - But that’s not what you asked me.

As to Why you Bother... that one’s easy: Because you enjoy hacking away at every little loophole I leave in my writing rather than directly answering the questions I’ve posed.

But what the heck: Following your lead into independent leg steering, maybe we can at least agree on something here.

I certainly agree that we can create counter in our skis without turning our upper body at all. Pivot slips straight down the fall line are a great example. Short Swing turns are another great example of 'the feet & legs turning under a quite & stable upper body’. Come to think of it, this is also extremely efficient.

Our upper-body Mass has considerably more angular momentum than our feet & legs. So, I must agree with you that letting my feet & legs do the turning while my upper body remains at rotational rest is certainly more efficient than deliberately twisting my upper body to some contrived degree of counter so I can display a given ‘look’.

Can we at least politely agree on this particular aspect of counter?

.ma
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA
Our own physical capability will limit or enhance our range of ‘counter’ development and personal preference will further refine exactly how much we invoke.
Perhaps you could elaborate? Why would you *choose* to "invoke" more or less counter?
post #34 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA
Skidude72,

In post#11 above you specifically asked… I was just answering your question - specifically - with how it could occur.

Can independent leg steering (aka: fulcrum turning) be used in perfect isolation to create 10-degrees of foot-twist with no twisting of the upper body at all? Sure! - But that’s not what you asked me.

As to Why you Bother... that one’s easy: Because you enjoy hacking away at every little loophole I leave in my writing rather than directly answering the questions I’ve posed.

But what the heck: Following your lead into independent leg steering, maybe we can at least agree on something here.

I certainly agree that we can create counter in our skis without turning our upper body at all. Pivot slips straight down the fall line are a great example. Short Swing turns are another great example of 'the feet & legs turning under a quite & stable upper body’. Come to think of it, this is also extremely efficient.

Our upper-body Mass has considerably more angular momentum than our feet & legs. So, I must agree with you that letting my feet & legs do the turning while my upper body remains at rotational rest is certainly more efficient than deliberately twisting my upper body to some contrived degree of counter so I can display a given ‘look’.

Can we at least politely agree on this particular aspect of counter?

.ma
Ummm....what you wrote here is great.....and pretty much sums up my argument......so just curious...what particular aspects of counter do you feel that we are still at odds with?
post #35 of 36
BigE,

Thanks for noting your own source of the idea. I was hoping you’d seen it in a local newsletter or magazine as that might provide the author’s underlying reasons for it. So far I’ve not found it in any text though I’m still interested if any Lurkers out there know of an original published source.

---
Regarding a Face the Force perspective, to my knowledge there isn’t any force in the ‘Tangential-CM-direction’ that we need to face while skiing. Wind resistance is far too variable in magnitude & direction to be meaningful in this discussion and frictional resistance of the snow will generally be minimal in that direction also. We do have momentum in the Tangential-CM-Direction but momentum isn’t something one actually faces - it’s something we have internally. That is - unless we choose to give it up, say to a tree in front of us. Not sure I’d really want to face it there though.

In the case of the short hop directly forward that you cite - I agree that landing is easiest in minor hops when we align our upper body squarely to the friction we’re about to encounter. That way, we evenly balance our upper-body mass around the center of impact. In a larger jump (say off a 10’ high stack of hay) it’s better to land slightly off-center at impact - in order to convert some of this larger impact force into rotational momentum - to ‘roll with it’ rather than just absorb it all at once. I'm not sure it's a matter of facing forces so much as it is a matter of accommodating them.

I’m not sure what you meant in post#18.
To face the Snow’s Reaction Force we’d need to be facing straight down into the snow - not that I haven’t inadvertently done that on occasion. While skiing, the primary forces I need to accommodate (with body position & structure) are centripetal and gravity. I stand predominantly against the pull of gravity and modify my stance (and CM inclination) as centripetal force grows and abates thru each turn.

The centripetal force generally drives me 90-degrees from that ‘Tangential-CM-direction’ yet it wouldn’t make much sense for me to always face directly toward the outside of my turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Perhaps you could elaborate? Why would you *choose* to "invoke" more or less counter?
Well… it would be a trap for me to elaborate my views from that perspective. Your question inherently assumes Rule#1 to be correct and that I must justify any deviations from it. I disagree with the rule so it makes no sense for me to try and justify deviations from it.

I’ll put forth an explanation of my own views a bit further on. First I’d like to find some common ground with Skidude from which to build a reasonable translation.


Skidude72,

As mentioned above my gripe is still with Rule#1 - the insistence that skiers should face the direction their CM is traveling at any point in time which directly affects our degree of counter at all times.

Rather than continue nagging for your underlying explanation of the rule I thought we might just look over common concepts related to counter that we’re likely to agree on. Once we cover all the bases (basis?) we might discover where our conceptual ideas don’t line up.

BTW, on the Independent Leg Steering thing I left out an important aspect. In reality, once we’ve turned our legs (independently) to a certain degree our skis will bump into each other if we do nothing else. To avoid this we implement Pelvic Counter: We twist our legs independently while also twisting our pelvis to accommodate the need for continued leg separation.

And any time we’re twisting our pelvis - we must also be twisting our ‘waist’ in order to do it (though not necessarily our ‘upper body’ - the part above the waist).

Are we still in agreement on Independent leg steering despite this addendum?

.ma
post #36 of 36
MichaelA,

I have no claim that requires elaboration. You do. You won't. I stop.

Cheers
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