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Directional Movements - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Pierre,
Come play with us at the 07 event! It would be great to do a workshop/clinic detailing the difference between ice and packed powder from a couple points of view.
post #32 of 53
Entering this thread a little late (been busy). Directional movemnets are applied to the skis by flexing into the boot cuffs in the intended direction of movemnet. This also moves the core in the intended direction of the turn. Directional movements are also used to move with the equipment (along the length of the ski).

Try this exercise, do a vertical slide slip and then apply flexion into the side of the tongues of the boots (toward the hill and forward) in a diagional direction. Without changing the edge angle, the skis edges) engage into the snow and move forward in a traverse. This is applying directional movement from a slide slip.

Directional movements applied from the beginning of a turn and throughout the turn are very dynamic. The closist thing is carving (train track) on the inside ski only. That utilizes directional movements along with the skis' side cut design.

The white pass turn and "stem steps" are a great exercise for learning and integrating directional movements into your skiing.

I hope this helps the understanding of directional mevements.

RW
post #33 of 53
Hey Ron,
Flexing into the boots is happening but from what I understand the joints are moving in response to the pelvis/torso being allowed to move towards the outside of the turn / middle of the next turn. Which is different than starting the movement in the feet/boots and having it work up the kinetic chain.
post #34 of 53
JSP,

Quote:
Which is different than starting the movement in the feet/boots and having it work up the kinetic chain.
I agree, let me rephraise that. The directional mevement into the turn is from the core along with flexing the boot cuffs like described in my post above (everything is moving in the intended direction).

RW
post #35 of 53
Deb Armstrong's article for The Professional Skier is finally in the hands of PSIA members (page 26ff). In it, she says, "Perhaps the most neglected directional movement in modern ski instruction is that in which the body's core moves in the direction of travel--that is, the direction the body would go if all counter forces (e.g., edge grip, ruts, the orientation of the hill) were removed from the equation."

This takes the lateral direction focus and redirects it. () Obviously, there's more to the article. For those who have read it, what strikes you in it? Alpental Angle, what do you have to say about it?
post #36 of 53
JASkiPro and Ron White. What is the specific goal when you are "Flexing into the boot cuffs"? Is it a stance thing? or a ski performance thing? Something else? I'm interested in what you are saying, but wary of levering!

Spag
post #37 of 53
SSh, As you know, I have lots of thoughts about directional movements. It will be easier to address your comments after people have read the article in The Professional Skier. I am sure there will be numerous options out there!!!
post #38 of 53
Alpental Angle/ssh, is it possible that article could become part of the EpicSki Premium Article collection? ...or is it tied solely to TPS?
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Alpental Angle/ssh, is it possible that article could become part of the EpicSki Premium Article collection? ...or is it tied solely to TPS?
I'll see what I can find out, but Alpental Angle may already have an answer...
post #40 of 53
I dont have the answer. Steve, Thanks for looking into it.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips.[/font]
I am having trouble understanding what this means? Could some one throw me a bone....? I have never thought about where my pressure control movements oringinate from but from where should they originate?

bud
post #42 of 53
Hey Bud. I'll take a stab.

Pressure control movements toward the end of the turn TEND to be flexing in nature among most of the recreational skiers out there. If you flex only the knee and hips at this point (or any point for that matter) in the turn, you'll wind up sitting. It's worse in the bottom of the turn because the pressure that has built up will generally force you to sit even further once you've started. If you are a skier who is in the realm of ability where you are extending by this point, you could try starting that extension by opening the ankle joint and letting that movement chain up the knee and hip.

Pressure control movements can originate from many places... Kness, hips, spine, etc. But to me, the most effective ones start in the ankles. Ankles are precise. Ankles can utilise the boot to help stabilize movements, rather than muscle. Ankles can set a good "watermark" for how far the knees and hips should move.

Hope that helps!

Spag

PS. Alpental, Nice article.
post #43 of 53
I'll have to second what Spag said. In my experience the knee is generaly overused the ankles and hips underused. Just like our edgeing movements originating and following the chain up the body, I like to introduce pressure control movements in this way also. As Spag said, as the ankles go, so to go the knees and hips.

I find I rarely need to talk about the knees flexing and extending. the knees seem to get overused rather than under used. The ankles and hips on the other hand, seem to be the areas that need addressing. If we want to reinforce the concept that movements originate in the feet in skiing when possible, then the ankles get the nod for origination of pressure control also. later, RicB.
post #44 of 53
spag & Ricb,

Thanks, for your replies to my question. Let me pose this question? If I am skiing in boots that are very stiff flexing and have very little range of motion which minimize the available ankle flexion.....and I understand that one joint can not be flexed independant of other joints and maintain balance, what options do I have other than flexing knees and hips?...

when this quote states "originate" are we talking about a split second sequence? It would seem to me that if the ankle joint is inhibited by a stiff boot the other option is to involve a more active movement of the torso and arms to counter balance knee flexion. Am I out of line?

bud
post #45 of 53
Well I would just say that because something originates somewhere doesn't mean it has to move equal amounts or the most. If we key into our base of support in these flexion and extension movement then the "symphony" (thanks Rick) is well conducted and symbiotic, instead of fragmented and piece meal.

Ankle plantar flexion getting extension started up the chain and dorsi flexion getting flexion started in reverse goes a long way in keeping things effective. Even when the ankle can only move small amounts, the movements are still integrated, coordinated, balanced and so more effective. IMHO. Later, RicB.
post #46 of 53

Good News/Bad News

The good news is that TPS will be expanding their web site and making articles available there. I do not know, yet, if they will be available to the public or just to members, although I have made my opinion on the matter known.

The bad news is that they will not allow us to reproduce the articles and they retain all rights to the material for one year. At the one year mark, the rights for the unedited works is available to the author to republish.

They will allow us to excerpt quotes with attribution.
post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
Ankle plantar flexion getting extension started up the chain and dorsi flexion getting flexion started in reverse goes a long way in keeping things effective. Even when the ankle can only move small amounts, the movements are still integrated, coordinated, balanced and so more effective. IMHO. Later, RicB.
thanks, that clarifies it for me a bit. I understand now what the statement meant. I guess I was thinking where the most movement was possible and how one could avoid using knee and hip flexion in this scenerio.
post #48 of 53
I am sorry, I am thinking about this some more and it seems to me the original statement may not always be true. Point in case: from a neutral standing position, to move the hips forward we initiate the movement with ankle dorsi flexion to move the hips aft we plantar flex. We could also conceivably flex the knees and hips actively or passively to absorb forces keeping a neutral bias under the foot (ankle neutral) could we not? So this would seem to dispell the "must originate in the ankle" theory....

I would agree in theory that to move along the length of the ski fore and aft we most efficiently originate the movement in the ankle but not neccessarily in the vertical plane.
post #49 of 53
Thread Starter 
It's important to emphasize the foreword to the document, Skiing Concepts 2005, from which the descriptions of directional movement in the initial post were taken:
Quote:
PSIA has the Alpine Technical Manual, and the Skills Concept; the National Certification Standards; and the Visual Cues to Effective and Ineffective Skiing. All of these resources highlight similar technical beliefs, each being organized to address a specific audience or purpose. The “Skiing Concepts” are another resource that the Alpine Team has created with a specific purpose. The Skiing Concepts represent the combined beliefs of the members of the Alpine Team, they are our sketch pad for technical thought, a document that is free to evolve and change, as our understanding evolves and changes. The purpose of the Skiing Concepts is to promote expanding thought, and foster dialogue; rather than to place restrictions or define skiing.

In reading and using this piece, keep in mind that it is the concepts behind the words, rather than the words themselves that are important. Because we are describing motions and sensations, the written word will NOT suit everyone's interpretation of that motion or sensation. The words must be massaged into your own belief system, to mesh with your own understanding of what happens on the hill. This is the process we went through as a team at Copper, and we will continue to do so. It was very important, throughout training, that every team member had the time and opportunity to explore, take personal ownership, and gain an appreciation of how other team members view and describe the concepts. The process we went through is an exercise I recommend every ski teacher experience, and one which you will when you ski with a team member.

The Skiing Concepts are not, nor are they intended to be a finished document that you can hand out, read through, and it’s done. This paper must be folded into your pocket, taken on the hill, skied through, felt, and talked about. It is not simply to be read, it is to be experienced. It is this process alone, a process of challenge and experimentation that holds the value of the Skiing Concepts.

As long as you give yourself the freedom to question your understanding, to identify how and why you may need to modify words to understand concepts, then this document will provide a great tool for exploring your beliefs about skiing. We look forward to skiing through all of this and more with you this season, hope to see you in your division. – The Team.
Was this paper designed for epicski or what?
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I am sorry, I am thinking about this some more and it seems to me the original statement may not always be true. Point in case: from a neutral standing position, to move the hips forward we initiate the movement with ankle dorsi flexion to move the hips aft we plantar flex. We could also conceivably flex the knees and hips actively or passively to absorb forces keeping a neutral bias under the foot (ankle neutral) could we not? So this would seem to dispell the "must originate in the ankle" theory....

I would agree in theory that to move along the length of the ski fore and aft we most efficiently originate the movement in the ankle but not neccessarily in the vertical plane.
Doesn't keeping a neutral bias under the foot while flexing the knees and hips also require that the ankle have coresponding and coordinated movement also? Did I use the word Must Bud? Maybe I should say that we are better served in keeping our movements intergrated and coordinated if we think of the as originating in our feet. Nothing is absolute though, and just like our home base stance in skiing, something that we strive for and try to return to as a standard.

IMHO, the hips extending to help them move forward, is jsut as important as dorsiflexing to move the hips forward. And there is a good application for all three of the outside lower joints opening and closing together in dynamic skiing. As the ankle is extended (in concert with knee and hip extention), it pressures the ski in the middle, even though our com is still a liitle behind of the center of the ski coming out of transition. This helps get the entire ski edge egaged earlier than one might do otherwise, along with establishing a solid early platform to move to. Later, RicB.
post #51 of 53
thanks ricb,

I appreciate your perspective and agree. I am not very good with semantics and generally take broader more holistic strokes with my brush when thinking about skiing. I can see as I paricipate here on Epic that my neurons will start spinning faster and I will peel some more layers off the old onion!
post #52 of 53
The thanks is mine Bud. It is folks like you posting, with your depth of knowledge that keep myself and others on our toes. Later, RicB.
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Deb Armstrong's article for The Professional Skier is finally in the hands of PSIA members. This takes the lateral direction focus and redirects it. For those who have read it, what strikes you in it?
In '99, S. Mathers (PSIA D-Team) wrote an article exploring the evolution of the short turn. In discussing what he described as reaching short turns, "the path of the CM is not tied to gravity so much as it is to the deflection and direction of the skis carving through the snow", with "the center of mass flowing in curves: forward, across the hill, and down the hill" as a required technical element.

Mathers skied it with a lovely combination of strength and elegance. Much more pleasing to the eye than Deb's article accompanying photo.

Body shaping is a great focus. It provides a wonderful sense of rhythm and smooth connection with the feet and skis. It's a great way to eliminate the park and ride, and begin feeling constant movement into, through, and out of each turn, turn to turn, without dead spots and dissonance.

Ahhh.......
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