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Toyota FJ ...

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Via one of our "ski car" posts in the gear forum a few weeks ago, I became aware of the FJ small/retro and inexpensive (NOT) ... Toyota.

So, last week I figured what the heck, from all of the reviews, it sounded like a great bargain ski car. The auto press hyped it a being Spartan and short on 'options" with no fancy (can't even get leather) crap.

That sounded like my kind of car. It is a rare moment that I even use the radio and I can even roll up my own windows (if I had my way ... you can't), cause they are standard as is air.

The list on this hack is $21K base and $23K with 4X ... and six speed. With that (ha-ha) .... for $23 you get a CD and air .... not bad just add the optional side air bags and a rack and I'm all set?

NOT ... just try to get one!

Big (censored), er ... harlot??, showing all kinds of (censored) large frontal area and eyes a' flutter .... : like that is gonna somehow blind me ... sorry too old for that effluvium!

"Well Mr. Yuki, they are all coming through with options ... least expensive one is $31K ... "

"The steel wheels .. base (tee-hee-hee ... jiggle (censored) frontal area lots here) ... oh those .... "don't see them around at all" ..... "they all have (Vana White hand sweep here) .... the alus" Now the last thing that I want for a car I do actually use on a major rough road fifteen or twenty times a year is "allus" ... cast aluminium would be eaten by the rocks.

Yuki .. "Look, I just want a base 4X can I get that?"

(censored) Large Frontal Area Person (scantily clad) .. "Well, we can build whatever you like" .... "I can start your order form now and we can send it right in" .... (bends over to brush imaginary dust from the "allu" rim .... keeeeeerist does she (censored)flaunt her large frontal area!

Yuki .... "and that's the $23K base version right?"

(censored) Large Fronted Person .. "Well, it would be the base version when it comes in" .... Now what in the (censored) gosh b' darn & gollies does that mean .... "when it comes in" ... :

(censored) Large Fronted Person ... "When your car comes in, we are getting a bit over list"

I'll give her credit here .... this (censored) ... harlot??, was starting to catch on that I was not just gonna' follow her (censored) er .... her scantily clad and short attire led little to the imagination as she tried to lead me into the showroom and fill out all kinds of forms ....

.... to bid for "my own" car when it came in .... From what I could get out of her, they call around and "bid" the car out to others to max out the deal .... now, she was not gonna' tell me that, but since I had been through that with Mercedes on two occasions I knew what to ask.

Bait & Switch Awards

1985 ... Mercedes
1998 ... Mercedes
2006 ... Toyota
post #2 of 22
It is not a bait and switch unless the advertised that they had a 23K one and when you go there there was no proof that there ever was one. Unfortunatly, ther have a hot car right now and the dealer wants to make what he can on them. MSRP, is just that...SUGGESTED. The door swings both ways here, slower moving cars get discounted...hot cars don't and sometimes get jacked up. Supply and Demand.
post #3 of 22
What's the matter, is a Subaru not good enough, for you...? lol
post #4 of 22
This is a vehicle that will demand a premium price until the buzz wears off. I saw a couple at a local Toyota dealer. Both were optioned to sticker at a little over 30K. If you want to get a better deal, check out the 4Runner.
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 

bait $ switch

And as the laws evolve and catch up ... so does "the game".

When the cars get the hype in the auto press that is in essence owned by that the auto makers who buy the ad space, it is a "hand in glove relationship".

The bait ... the low price in the press ... get's you in the door.

Did they do "up front" disclosure with me that there was no price on the vehicle that I was going to order???

The bad news here is that it may be "legal" .... but then that's why laws get passed ... but not fair or moral. I am only glad that I don't need a car or worse, was (like I was with both Mercedes), nursing a car while I had one on order ....... a car that they NEVER intended to deliver ... other than months of annoying phone calls offering for me to "option up" ...

There should be a law on ACTUAL delivery once they quote prices in the shill auto press .... and they took my deposit!: ... no deposit ... no deal ...

Phil, if they did that on a lift ticket that you bought as a package (lift and lodging) ... admit it Phil, you would go nuts! And, Stowe did try this with me on a "spring deal" .... cause it "snowed" ... Told em' I wanted a full refund too .. with a wife and two kids standing there they figured I'd cave in AFTER I put the "Spring Special" on my credit card weeks before!
post #6 of 22
Welcome to the world of new car purchases.

Your experience is not unique. How do you think the people felt in 1990 when Mazda dealers were asking $5K over MSRP for a $13K Miata? Or the people trying to buy the first 240Z in the early 70's?

Several things to consider:

1. If anything, you should be comforted by the fact that your choice is in great demand upon its initial launch. It often bodes well for subsequent resale value.

2. The pricing premium over MSRP will not last long and is probably not observed by all dealers. Check around (Most Toyota dealers use the same web system that allows you to check the actual inventory at multiple dealers online - get exact details on available dates, included options, and msrp as equipped).

3. Toyota has always been bad about structuring expensive factory option packages that cause you to greatly exceed your early price expectation by the time you select desired options (especially for 4WD's). I've left frustrated several times in past decades when I wanted a relatively basic 4WD 4Runner. Then many Toyota dealers aggravate the matter by adding expensive, worthless distributor options (wind deflectors, b/s molding, roof racks, aftermarket leather seats for SR5's, etc.) to the actual units that they buy into inventory.

In the early 90's, I wanted a Landcruiser and was attracted to its then $29K base price (no leather, sroof, navi system, 3rd seat or any of that crap). Finding one was a different story and I gave up!

A few years ago, I finally bought a "base" '02 Cruiser. While the base price (and standard features) is much higher than the early 90's version, I was able to avoid the few factory options and numerous distributor options by keeping on eye on dealer inventory at nearby dealers. I haven't regretted the purchase; best vehicle I've ever owned (and I shamefully admit I've owned more cars than skis).

If you really like the FJ, just be a little patient. The price gouging won't last long. Of course, you won't be buying it for $4500 under sticker anytime soon either!
post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 

patience ...

The good news is that right now I don't need a car.

We have an "extra" since my daughter won't be needing one. An XC, a Vette and a T-100 Toyota 4X .....

I figured that with my wife's Saab getting old .... a 95 but only has 65K miles, it would be for her and get rid of the Vette. That was a dumb purchase. Great car and lots of fun .... but it sits too much.

I'll wait .. If she was "up front" about what was going on .. not much of a problem. Playing the girlie "Hooters" game on the lot ...
post #8 of 22
I read your post again.

The Hooter girl comment on "bidding out" is either bs or you misunderstood her.

You are able to build to order and lock in the price / vehicle. Your only risk relates to the delay in date of actual delivery vs. initial promised date. Furthermore, the delay could be a while if their production is barely meeting the initial allocation to each dealer.

According to my local dealer's website, there are 29 FJ's with 4WD and 6sp that will be available over the next 3 weeks in my region (Southeast). Only 2 had total MSRP less than $27K (both in $26K region). Most were $29-30K.

By the way, many other manufacturers have long used the lo-ball base MSRP. Want a 911 Carrera? Good luck finding one on a lot for the base MSRP + only destination charge. Same thing for Lexus, BMW, etc.

When Lexus first introduced the big LS sedan in 1990 (?), I think its MSRP was only $39K. However, that didn't include leather, sroof, cd changer, etc.

Wait and see.
post #9 of 22
Thread Starter 
Not bull! I went through the same thing with the Audi wagon that I would now have instead of the Volvo XC. At least the Audi boys were more up front. They would order my car, but told me they would not commit to a price and that when the cars came it was a bidders game among the prospective "buyers".

This girl wanted to work up the order sheet to hook me in but balked at fixing a price. Any way you shake it, it's bull. So .... I work up an order sheet and put $$$ down and then have to negotiate the price on delivery?

When the Mercedes 320 M was announced, I had just been in a very bad total in my used 89' 190 .... I was sold on the safety of the brand AND was one of the first to order. They gladly took my deposit. A few folks I knew were taking delivery ... but all I got from Mercedes was two phone calls a week "Gee Mr. Yuki, we are getting ready to build your car and wanted to offer you a "last chance" to option up. I was one of the first to put a deposit on one too. Four months of calls ..... just build the damned car already ... stall tactics since I did not want the sunroof package.

Mercedes was also slow in returning the deposit and wanted to "keep my order open" .... six months later after the threat of a lawyer, they choked up the money. They had the money for over a year.

At least the first time I went through this in 84 with the 190, the sales guy took me aside (after a few months) and told me to buy something else .... they had no intention of making a base 190. He took me outside to tell me this ... like the showroom was bugged. But at least he told me. I think he felt sorry for me nursing a 200K mi. VW Sirocco that was falling apart while waiting for my "dream car".
post #10 of 22
Gee Yuki,
I always find these professional sales people so helpful: . Maybe you could go back and get her to explain how the 4x4 system works. Ask her if it has a Torsion differential.

Toyotas in particular, seem to have gone to the zen school of car salesmanship. They must believe that the more they make it seem like they don't want to sell you a car the more likely you are to buy it.

My approach is quite simple. I Tell them what I want and ask what they can give me and how much it will cost out the door. Unfortunately, since the word "SUCKER" is printed across my forehead in ink only car salesmen can see, I always end up not buying a car; they are trying to make an extra four or five grand over and above what most people pay for the same car.

Anybody know the best way to get a reliable crate engine/trans for a 92 Chev wagon. I'm thinking the newer vette engine might be a good replacement for the old 5L.
post #11 of 22

Get some revenge...

Post the name of the dealer and the sales...err...person. I'm sure some of the folks in your neighborhood would love to go down for a "test drive".
post #12 of 22
In short, you are incorrect in your many assumptions below, based on the information you have provided us.

I work for a Car Company on the Corporate side and have been in the business for many years. Though many dealers are not innocent in nature, (Ours certainly are not in come cases) by a long shot, consumers also set themselves up quite a bit. In your instance and not to be rued, but no matter what the manufacture, if you go after a hot product from one of the industry's front runners, RIGHT AT PRODUCT LAUNCH, and you are suprised about a high cost situation, I would recomend you wait a while, until supply comes up, or go after a product that that is more readily available. This product you reference is not only a new product, but one that breaks ground in the market segment it will reside in and the cost and demand will reflect that.

You need to consult a bit more and figure out that the FJ is not meant to be in a segment with say "near luxury SUV's" that have more options. It's product base is to provide real 4x4 expereinces via a "rougher, more trail ready package" (much like the Nissan Extera). Having said that, Dealers are in the business of making money and units sold with more accessories, bring more profit. If you want a base unit, you will get one for the promised price, but not right at launch! To think you will is very naive in most cases, with most all dealers/manufactures.

Further, if you compare Horsepower, power train, performance and features and overall quality, (Again Quality) with LIKE MODELS in that given product segment, you will come up with a much more analyitical result. (Subaru makes an incredible product...have owned three myself...but they currently do not offer anything in this specific segment of which the FJ will reside in for instance)

The gentlemen below who references the "Miata example" hits the nail on the head.

Unlike our current gas situation/gauging situation in this country, this is a clear case of supply and demand and nothing else. Period.

Cheers.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Via one of our "ski car" posts in the gear forum a few weeks ago, I became aware of the FJ small/retro and inexpensive (NOT) ... Toyota.

So, last week I figured what the heck, from all of the reviews, it sounded like a great bargain ski car. The auto press hyped it a being Spartan and short on 'options" with no fancy (can't even get leather) crap.

That sounded like my kind of car. It is a rare moment that I even use the radio and I can even roll up my own windows (if I had my way ... you can't), cause they are standard as is air.

The list on this hack is $21K base and $23K with 4X ... and six speed. With that (ha-ha) .... for $23 you get a CD and air .... not bad just add the optional side air bags and a rack and I'm all set?

NOT ... just try to get one!

Big (censored), er ... harlot??, showing all kinds of (censored) large frontal area and eyes a' flutter .... : like that is gonna somehow blind me ... sorry too old for that effluvium!

"Well Mr. Yuki, they are all coming through with options ... least expensive one is $31K ... "

"The steel wheels .. base (tee-hee-hee ... jiggle (censored) frontal area lots here) ... oh those .... "don't see them around at all" ..... "they all have (Vana White hand sweep here) .... the alus" Now the last thing that I want for a car I do actually use on a major rough road fifteen or twenty times a year is "allus" ... cast aluminium would be eaten by the rocks.

Yuki .. "Look, I just want a base 4X can I get that?"

(censored) Large Frontal Area Person (scantily clad) .. "Well, we can build whatever you like" .... "I can start your order form now and we can send it right in" .... (bends over to brush imaginary dust from the "allu" rim .... keeeeeerist does she (censored)flaunt her large frontal area!

Yuki .... "and that's the $23K base version right?"

(censored) Large Fronted Person .. "Well, it would be the base version when it comes in" .... Now what in the (censored) gosh b' darn & gollies does that mean .... "when it comes in" ... :

(censored) Large Fronted Person ... "When your car comes in, we are getting a bit over list"

I'll give her credit here .... this (censored) ... harlot??, was starting to catch on that I was not just gonna' follow her (censored) er .... her scantily clad and short attire led little to the imagination as she tried to lead me into the showroom and fill out all kinds of forms ....

.... to bid for "my own" car when it came in .... From what I could get out of her, they call around and "bid" the car out to others to max out the deal .... now, she was not gonna' tell me that, but since I had been through that with Mercedes on two occasions I knew what to ask.

Bait & Switch Awards

1985 ... Mercedes
1998 ... Mercedes
2006 ... Toyota
post #13 of 22
Nailed it Phil!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
It is not a bait and switch unless the advertised that they had a 23K one and when you go there there was no proof that there ever was one. Unfortunatly, ther have a hot car right now and the dealer wants to make what he can on them. MSRP, is just that...SUGGESTED. The door swings both ways here, slower moving cars get discounted...hot cars don't and sometimes get jacked up. Supply and Demand.
post #14 of 22
You were correct in every way until you final statement relative to gauging. It is not gauging if a manfacture does not have a base model in stock, but the COMPANY offers one within its product offering. Period.

Fact: All manf. make more money on cars with options vs. car's with base only set ups. A LOT MORE $.

Phil says it best..if they brought him in on a specific model..for $23 and had it there, but when he got in..it was $30k..different story.

If anyone wants to order an FJ, they will get one for base..eventually,,,if you order one or wait until after a major launch of a product reincarnation, that used to define the segment (FJLandcruiser of the 70's)



Quote:
Originally Posted by srharv
Welcome to the world of new car purchases.

Your experience is not unique. How do you think the people felt in 1990 when Mazda dealers were asking $5K over MSRP for a $13K Miata? Or the people trying to buy the first 240Z in the early 70's?

Several things to consider:

1. If anything, you should be comforted by the fact that your choice is in great demand upon its initial launch. It often bodes well for subsequent resale value.

2. The pricing premium over MSRP will not last long and is probably not observed by all dealers. Check around (Most Toyota dealers use the same web system that allows you to check the actual inventory at multiple dealers online - get exact details on available dates, included options, and msrp as equipped).

3. Toyota has always been bad about structuring expensive factory option packages that cause you to greatly exceed your early price expectation by the time you select desired options (especially for 4WD's). I've left frustrated several times in past decades when I wanted a relatively basic 4WD 4Runner. Then many Toyota dealers aggravate the matter by adding expensive, worthless distributor options (wind deflectors, b/s molding, roof racks, aftermarket leather seats for SR5's, etc.) to the actual units that they buy into inventory.

In the early 90's, I wanted a Landcruiser and was attracted to its then $29K base price (no leather, sroof, navi system, 3rd seat or any of that crap). Finding one was a different story and I gave up!

A few years ago, I finally bought a "base" '02 Cruiser. While the base price (and standard features) is much higher than the early 90's version, I was able to avoid the few factory options and numerous distributor options by keeping on eye on dealer inventory at nearby dealers. I haven't regretted the purchase; best vehicle I've ever owned (and I shamefully admit I've owned more cars than skis).

If you really like the FJ, just be a little patient. The price gouging won't last long. Of course, you won't be buying it for $4500 under sticker anytime soon either!
post #15 of 22
I have been down nightmare road with my last car dealer.I refuse to buy new for any reason.I'll let someone else take the screwing and then I'll step in 2-3 years later and nail a bargain. I have been doing this for years.
"Hey Joe, give me a call when your ready to get a new car, I'll give you a few bucks more than the dealer."
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danimal
You were correct in every way until you final statement relative to gauging. It is not gauging if a manfacture does not have a base model in stock, but the COMPANY offers one within its product offering. Period.
I'm not sure gouging / gauging is a sufficiently-specific term that should inspire a debate.

Regardless, I think we are arguing 2 different points. I was not referring to base vs. options with my $4500 gouging comment. I was referring to the unique / rare, but perfectly legal, situation where a dealer adds $5K of additional profit to the fully-loaded sticker (already including mfgr, distributor and dealer options - even the scotchgard bullsh*t).

This situation occurred briefly with the initial launch of the Miata, NSX and several other cars. I recall seeing our local Acura dealer's sticker for their first NSX that had an added $25,000 line item simply titled "Market Adjustment". Not all dealers are so aggressive and this practice does not last long after initial launch.
post #17 of 22
Agreed....too busy here at work as well..but I actually agree with you, after your clarification.


Quote:
Originally Posted by srharv
I'm not sure gouging / gauging is a sufficiently-specific term that should inspire a debate.

Regardless, I think we are arguing 2 different points. I was not referring to base vs. options with my $4500 gouging comment. I was referring to the unique / rare, but perfectly legal, situation where a dealer adds $5K of additional profit to the fully-loaded sticker (already including mfgr, distributor and dealer options - even the scotchgard bullsh*t).

This situation occurred briefly with the initial launch of the Miata, NSX and several other cars. I recall seeing our local Acura dealer's sticker for their first NSX that had an added $25,000 line item simply titled "Market Adjustment". Not all dealers are so aggressive and this practice does not last long after initial launch.
post #18 of 22
Danimal,

I didn't realize that you and I had the same background.
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 

Pirates .. ??

Yer' parrot wanna' cracker?

:
post #20 of 22
What company do you work for? Better yet..pm me? Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
Danimal,

I didn't realize that you and I had the same background.
post #21 of 22
rule #1...never buy from a dealer...not worth the stress and anger management.

decide what you want and what you are willing to pay and search the lists every day. Someone out there bought one and does not like it or is not able to keep it.
post #22 of 22
my experience buying the Nissan Xterra when it first came out in 1999-
bought it at MSRP because I had to have it and it was the hot vehicle. just under 28000 after taxes. then again, gas was something like $1.20 per gallon.

today I look in the paper and they are advertising at about a little under 20000 before taxes. the lower prices might have to do with lessing of demand for SUV;s becasue of the current gas crunch.

prices will go down when demand goes down. unless this SUV gets 30-40 mpg, that will happen pretty quickly.
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