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Correct Location for an Alpine boot on a ski

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Gents, I plan to mount a new pair of bindings on a pair of 174cm K2 Mod7.8 alpine skis. Will do this at home without a jig.
There is an arrow on the side of the ski with adjacent words: "Boot Toe". I assume the boot toe is to be placed at this arrow (someone please confirm this). Here's my main question: Exactly what defines the "boot toe"? Is the toe the farthest front edge of the bottom lip of the boot sole, or is the toe the front of the toe box atop the sole? If I install it wrong, the boot location could be off approx 5/16 inch.
I have asked a couple of local ski shops this question and no one seems to know the answer since what they do is slap the jig on and just drill the holes. I guess they do know where to place the jig. No need to suggest I use a ski shop to do this mounting. Yes, I can certainly do that. I just enjoy doing it myself.
Thanks in advance for any info you experts can give.
post #2 of 19
I think this would be even more funny if you were planning on mounting them with Markers.

Actually, if you go and do a search in Powdermag's techtalk this was discussed at length awhile back.
post #3 of 19
VERY generally speaking, the bindings should be mounted so that the ball of your foot (BOF) is directly over the midpoint of the ski's running surface (the part of the ski that contacts the snow when it is flat with weight applied to it).

With apologies to Peter Keelty for cutting and pasting this from his excellent website, I'll give you the following exerpt. I do this to encourage you to go to his site Tech Support for Skiers and sign up as a member. There is a plethora of information there about ski gear, and a very extensive article on binding placement. the cost is minimal, and well worth every penny if you're any kind of gear geek (and YOU are).
I hope it's OK for me to do this. If not, one of the moderators should delete it.

This is a snippet from Peter Keelty's site:

5 - Binding Placement III (conclusion)


This is the final installment in our binding placement series.

Rather than blather on about results of the binding study to which we refer in parts I & II, we herewith post summary results of the actual study. (click here for printable version)* Warning; some parts of this are heavy going, but the conclusions are of special interest.

* requires Adobe Acrobat reader. Download for free here.

Our own conclusion is rooted in the real world, recognizing that manufacturers are delivering skis with predetermined mid-sole marks and increasingly with plates that accept only that brand's bindings, or with built-in tracks?skis like Atomic's Device models?or with bindings that are built into the ski, like Volkl Motion and Piston Motion Models, Salomon Pilot and Elan Fusion models. Your choices are becoming increasingly limited, but there are some choices left:

1. On skis with no plate, track or built in binding, skiers may prefer the binding position determined by using the BOF method (which, alas, is technically demanding, requiring that a top-notch technician who serves the race community determine mounting position, as well as time consuming and expensive.) Better yet, and harder to find, work with a shop that has the Campbell Balancer.

2. There may not be an issue to begin with. French ski companies, along with K2, Stockli and Volant, place mid sole marks relatively farther forward than do most Austrian and German manufacturers and so drastic fore/aft adjustment is likely not needed by most skiers.

3. Atomic and Tyrolia make bindings, the Variozone and Super Railflex models, respectively, that can be skier-adjusted fore and aft to find the most comfortable position. The most comfortable position is the one in which the ski seems easiest to control in the widest variety of conditions. Hard-core powder hounds may prefer mounting positions relatively farther back than short radius, fall line fans.

Our conclusion remains unchanged from previous articles, to wit, that in the end it is up to the individual skier to determine his or her sweet spot. Remember, too, that there are hundreds of thousands of skiers having fun off-the-shelf recommended binding positions.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
BTW, there is also a good explanation there on how to accurately find the BOF on your boots. Peter's site is the best site that I know of (other than EPIC of course) to find unbiased information on ski equipment, and invaluable if you're an eBay ski buying junkie like me.

[ September 16, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Carvemeister ]
post #4 of 19
Quote:
Originally posted by Carvemeister:
VERY generally speaking, the bindings should be mounted so that the ball of your foot (BOF) is directly over the midpoint of the ski's running surface (the part of the ski that contacts the snow when it is flat with weight applied to it)...
That's right - that's the time-proven standard recommendation. However, in addition to (a) the center of the running surface, other very credible binding location possibilities include:

b) The center of mass (good starting point for tricks);
c) The center of pressure (good starting point for powder);
d) The ski waist - narrowest point on the ski;
e) etc. etc.

The mfgrs make assumptions about the intended use of the ski, and then make a recommendation for binding placement that is some appropriately weighted combination of the above.

Your use of the ski will likely be quite different from what the mfgrs assumed, and hence the best approach to fore-aft balance for an individual is almost certainly to experiment with different fore-aft locations. Unfortunately, this can be time-consuming, prohibitively costly, logistically impossible, etc. In that case, going with the mfgr's recommendation is usually a great starting point.

Tom / PM
post #5 of 19
Um, let's see,
5/16" that's about 8mm. I've read (on other well known internet sites) of bindings being put up to 25mm from the mark.
If you're not using a jig, I would expect the accuracy of the hole positions to be +/-2mm.
My best advice?
Jig On No Guesswork
This is a standard cry from those in the know who like Powder.

S
post #6 of 19
Henry

I'm all for the DIY approach to most things, but having fitted quite a few bindings in the past I'd suggest taking your new skis to someone who has a jig.

As well as getting the binding in the correct place for your combination of boot and ski the jig will have depth stops so that the holes are drilled to the correct depth. Rather teach granma to suck eggs, I'll assume you can appreciate why this is important.

Look at it this way...for the sake of a few dollars you tansfer the responsibility to someone else and will no doubt bump in to an old friend and have a good chat about what's just around the corner whilst you are dropping off your skis. Just take them to a shop you trust and use the time to start working them for deals on future purchases, therefore covering the cost of fitting the bindings.

Hope I haven't offended too many DIY ers...
post #7 of 19
I'd agree with freshtracks, depending on how much those skis mean to you. I'm not familiar with the model, but if they're a current model, and have never been drilled before, then why take a chance on screwing them up to save a few bucks?

But if they're a cheap pair that you got on eBay, then what the heck, go ahead and have some fun. If you screw up, who cares?
I've mounted quite a few bindings myself without a jig. Finding the proper spots to drill the holes is a bit tricky and can be time consuming if you want to get it right.

You won't drill through the bottom of your skis if you use a special binding drill bit from Tognar Toolworks Although I did drill through a pair of Junior skis one time because I forgot that they were a lot thinner. :
post #8 of 19
One problem with no jig..is actually drilling the screw holes in the ski..for the CENTRE of the holes in the binding.
An awful lot of bindings there is simply no way to do that.You simply cannot see the centre of the hole..and mark it..even if you partially(if you can)dissassemble the bindings.
No I'm not even going to comment on using the binding as a template for drilling the holes.
This is critical..a look at the chamfer..and it's related material on the binding..AND the mating area/chamfer on the screw head and this won't be hard to figger out.
Binding screws go in dead straight.Dead centre.No more on this.
The top of the holes should be chamferred.Buy the right bit to do this..OR make one up..if you don't buy the bit..you have to do this BEFORE you drill the holes.True you can simply use a larger bit to barely start the hole.This will give you a good enough chamfer.Problem is the point on the bit..they are not usually pointed..they are split..so the bit dances around a bit..then finding the centre to start the screw hole can be tricky.I simply take a larger bit and grind the centre to a point.This basically leaves this bit only good for this.But it does leave a very small accurate hole..and a chamfer.It is hard to chamfer the holes after.Some skiis..depending on the top sheet..and how it is bonded..it simply just chews up a tiny bit when you try to chamfer after..not chamferring..combining this with maybe a less than perfect size hole,placement,overtightening of binding screws..ya know the rest.
Make absolutely certain use the exact size correct bit..and a very good one at that.You may be going through a plate.Know Exactly where hidden plates etc, are on the ski.

Hey..sure this is a job that ANY diy can EASILY do!Is it worh it?No of course not..for the $15-20 that it costs CDN. to have it done right..and I'm not even asking the tech.to do it on his break for less.

Doing it yourself..you can easily make your own jig(s).You'll need a power saw,metal cut off blade,drill,bits.
Jig material..any scrap yard will have some sheet/plate.Sheet metal..the kind easily available is too thin..bends too easy.I have made jigs from stamped metal.The Home Depot as a matter of fact.They have about a zillion types of those metal connectors/framing etc.,for wood construction.They are like from about .15 to $1.00..buy a bunch..don't worry if you see one with bends..get a hammer beat it flat.When you've made the jig..if it's a perfect fit..holes centred on the binding..test the jig..mount the binding on a piece of 2x4..don't forget to allow for boot adjustment,forward pressure..
Way you go..god luck!

Ok,Ok,I admit it..I have used broken skiis as binding templates..cut them off at binding length with a cut off saw.Drilled the ski right through the base into a plate.Clamped this on top of the ski to be drilled.Marked the holes..checked them..right on..away I went.
post #9 of 19
The toe line refers to the most forward part of the toe lug of the boot.

It is not so simple to drill the ski by measuring off the binding. If you have a paper template, that makes it easier, but accuracy is reduced, and getting a perfect match between the two skis will be a fluke. Using the proper drill bit is critical, and has a shoulder to prevent drilling too deep (the jig only aligns the holes, it does not control depth). If the diameter is too large, the screws will not hold tight enough, if to small, the screws will put too much stress on the ski's materials, unless the hole is tapped. By taking the ski to a shop, they assume liabilty for a job done improperly. If you screw up, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

If the binding you are mounting has been deemed too old for a ski shop to work on it, but is still in proper operation, then I would agree that a self mount might be appropriate. You will take full responsibilty for anything which might go wrong. Don't go crying to the ski manufacturer (K2 in this case) or the binding manufacturer (unknown) if you pull out a binding or drill through the ski or the ski breaks or you injure yourself or etc.

You just bought a $500 pair of skis, pony up another $10 and have a shop mount them.
post #10 of 19
Geez, another cheapskate/troll who managed to generate several thousand words of response.

Well, here's my 2 cents, 2 minute epoxy! Just pick a spot that looks good, it doesn't necessarily even have to be the same spot on each ski. Rough up the surface, and slap 'em on! You'll be sliding in no time!

Or you could take them to a pro with a jig, but that would be too easy, not the true way of the DIY'er.

Have fun, homey!
post #11 of 19
XDOG - Welcome back!
Did you make it down to Chile? How was the skiing?
post #12 of 19
XD,
I tried that 2 minute epoxy, but couldn't wait that long, so it was only on for 1 minute 59.75 sec (approx)
Should I chisel my bindings off and do it properly. I'm concerned that by missing out the last quarter second, I may have created a high risk of the binding failing.
Oh, my bindings are the new Salomon 1050 - they start at a din of 10, and go up to 49. I really needed them to go up higher, cause I keep pre-releasing from them.

Final thing: I mounted my bindings on the flat, black side of the skis, because the other side was nice shiny plastic. Will this help me huck bigger jumps?

Also, I'm going to have to get my Subaru Imprezza WRX spoiler modified so that my skis can hang out the trunk - I don't want to put roof bars on it, cause then no one will see the big WRX sign I have on the top. Can you help?



S
post #13 of 19
Fox,
You've gone and buggered it up again, let me see if I can get you back on track here.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wear the fox hat:
XD,
I tried that 2 minute epoxy, but couldn't wait that long, so it was only on for 1 minute 59.75 sec (approx)
Should I chisel my bindings off and do it properly. I'm concerned that by missing out the last quarter second, I may have created a high risk of the binding failing.

Indeed, this setup is a time bomb. But you can't simply chisel them off of you intend to mount them in the same spot. At this point, simply drive 2 drywall screws (coarse thread) catty-corner through each binding half. This should be rock solid.

Oh, my bindings are the new Salomon 1050 - they start at a din of 10, and go up to 49. I really needed them to go up higher, cause I keep pre-releasing from them.

Remember that 2 minute epoxy? Glob some on your heel and toe pieces before clicking in and voila! No more releases, period. You will need to purchase a larger ski bag for travel.

Final thing: I mounted my bindings on the flat, black side of the skis, because the other side was nice shiny plastic. Will this help me huck bigger jumps?

Absolutely, and using the smooth shiny side eliminates the need for pesky waxing products.

Also, I'm going to have to get my Subaru Imprezza WRX spoiler modified so that my skis can hang out the trunk - I don't want to put roof bars on it, cause then no one will see the big WRX sign I have on the top. Can you help?

You're gonna have to consult Thule on that one!



S
Hope this was helpful!
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally posted by im12ski:
XDOG - Welcome back!
Did you make it down to Chile? How was the skiing?
Thanks for asking, I'm still recovering from the trip, trying to catch up on messages, emails, etc.

I will sit down soon and post a full review.

Short version, it was great. Skiing in Sep. above the treeline in knee deep, how could it not be? [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #15 of 19
Hi Henry--

I haven't read this whole thread closely, so please forgive me if I'm repeating anyone else's suggestions. And I know you said you like to do things like this yourself. But please...have a shop help you! Or at least contact the binding manufacturer's and ski manufacturer's tech reps in your area for specific instructions.

It's not such a big deal--drilling a few holes and screwing in a few screws. There's no "craftsmanship" involved, nothing that should give you a great feeling of personal satisfaction or pride, I wouldn't think. And it won't save you much money. But mismounted bindings won't ski right, and they could be downright dangerous if they pull out. Each ski model has specific recommendations from the manufacturer, regarding binding location, as well as torque, hole depth, countersinking, tapping, adhesives, even specific instructions for operating a power driver to prevent seriously weakening the result. How will you know the specifics for your setup without asking, or at least reading the tech manual? A strong adhesive for one ski will dissolve the core of another!

That said, many bindings come with paper templates and basic instructions for mounting. These will help. My recommendation, if you really must mount your own bindings, is to take your skis and boots to a qualified shop and have them mark the hole locations with their jig. Ask the tech for any specific instructions that you need to know, and for a little bit of glue, and give him/her a few dollars for the trouble. Or better yet, show up with a six pack of good beer, along with your boots and skis. You'll make a friend, get good advice, and you still get to go home and drill your own holes!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #16 of 19
I doubt Henry will screw it up. He is a meticulous retired ingineer with the means for having the bindings tested properly before skiing on them. Welcome to Epicski Henry. I recomend the ball of the foot directly over the cord center as well.

[ September 19, 2003, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #17 of 19
On the top.
post #18 of 19
Two minute epoxy on the binders? Surely you jest. Save time and money by simply epoxying the boots directly on the skis! No more pre-releases and you'll be the DIN 99 King.

I know this is the answer you didn't want, but here's my two cents. I used to mount lots of bindings, back when the tops where flat and bindings had fairly standard hole patterns. With the new binders, I let the pros do it. Not because i don't know what I'm doing but because it isn't worth getting the jigs to do it right and isn't worth doing wrong without them.
post #19 of 19
[quote]Originally posted by Harry Morgan:
[QB]Two minute epoxy on the binders? Surely you jest. Save time and money by simply epoxying the boots directly on the skis! No more pre-releases and you'll be the DIN 99 King.

I'm always over complicating things, why didn't I think of that?

That'll save at least $100!
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