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KISS this choice

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
I hope that this question generates a few answers...

Suppose you are making a turn, and you will need a specific edge angle at completion. You know that this turn is not so deep -- the edge angle you need could be obtained by inclination alone.

What factors should you consider whether you angulate or merely incline through this turn?
post #2 of 41

KISS answer

Trick question gets a trick answer. The factor to consider is how you define the end of a turn. I'll define it as when the ski goes flat. Zero edge angle = zero inclination + zero angulation.
post #3 of 41
I'd probably incline more (meaning allow the torso to tip somewhat in, BUT NOT MORE THAN THE LEGS) at the top of the turn (because at that point there's no need or purpose for angulation, and add a bit of angulation (the leveling of the shoulders) at the end to prepare for the next turn, and possible misjudgement (leading to skid) of the edge angle relative to what's needed for this speed and this snow.

Or as Chris Geib says, it probably doesn't make that much difference.
post #4 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Or as Chris Geib says, it probably doesn't make that much difference.
KISS in it's purest form.
post #5 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
Trick question gets a trick answer. The factor to consider is how you define the end of a turn. I'll define it as when the ski goes flat. Zero edge angle = zero inclination + zero angulation.
That would be neutral.

Let's say completion is upon release.

I'm really not that tricky.
post #6 of 41
Thread Starter 
weems,

does that mean faster speed = more angulation or less?
post #7 of 41
Bingo, therusty.

I picked up on that too. But I think I know what BigE means. Anyway one other observation. Be careful of the term deep. It doesn't have to do with inclination or edge angle, but those to things are the usual result of going deep.

ST
post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
weems,

does that mean faster speed = more angulation or less?
That depends on other variables. That's a none equation either way.
post #9 of 41
Thread Starter 
Like?
post #10 of 41
Simple skiing does not involve trying to end a turn on a specific edge angle. One may choose to bank (inclinate with no angulation) for the fun of it or one may ski in a banked position because one does not know how to angulate to improve performance. Are there are other possible reasons? Dozens, I'm sure. I could be trying to duck a low hanging tree limb. So what?
post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weems
Or as Chris Geib says, it probably doesn't make that much difference.
KISS in it's purest form.
UH OH! Hmm …now what have I gotten myself into!

I was actually referring to the boot out scenario that was left out of this version of the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I hope that this question generates a few answers...

Suppose you are making a turn, and you will need a specific edge angle at completion. You know that this turn is not so deep -- the edge angle you need could be obtained by inclination alone.

What factors should you consider whether you angulate or merely incline through this turn?
BigE,

I get the impression you have a turn in mind …and I can’t see it. Even if I could, I don’t know! But, since I don’t have enough sense to be quiet when I should, here are some things that strike me off the cuff that might factor in:

Definitely how fast I’m traveling.
How my ski reacts to that speed and edge angle.
Surface condition – am I on slush that will sheer away or a groomer that froze solid over night.
How did I come into this turn – did I huck my core down the hill across the ski’s or pretty much follow along their path.
Where am I directing my core out of this turn.
How steep is the slope.
Am I cutting across the slope or keeping turns more in the fall line.
Arcing, scarving, pivoting, braking…
Is it sunny?
Which pocket I put my keys in?
Everything else I couldn’t think of…

To reiterate, I don’t know! It occurs to me though that you’ve defined this required edge angle to achieve a desired path for both the skis and your core, and you have to balance all the factors that effect each so they work together to achieve your desired outcome. What doesn’t factor in?
post #12 of 41
If I'm thinking about the "end" of a turn, that means the entry into the next turn. I sure don't want my center of mass and torso way inside the first turn at that point.
post #13 of 41
Thread Starter 
Ok, cgeib. You are right, there's a lot that could be going on, and alot of things do have impact on what you'd choose to do. That was much of the intent here. Itemizing them would be very cool.

It seems so easy to say incline on entry and add as much angulation as you need later..... need to do what? For what purpose? How does that help me to decide?

What if I narrow things down significantly: the turn is going to be carved.
There is to be no steering. By that I mean "turning the feet"/"rotating the femurs in the hip socket" is not used to define the direction of the turn. We've started to turn, and have edge lock. I'd like to finish the turn with edge lock too....

BTW: A somewhat related question: Is it possible to heavily steer a turn/turn the feet while using hip angulation?
post #14 of 41
Thread Starter 
Kneale,

The notion of completion itself can be pretty vague, I agree. So I take it that you'd use angulation to get the CM closer to the start of the new turn?

BTW: I'm thinking completion = release of the CM from it's arc. Does that changed things any?
post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Like?
I think the faster speed would be about whether I could hold the line with the edge, not penetrate too deeply, use the energy from the ski to accelerate, and choose a line that is fast (not to round!) Now whether I would angulate more or less to be able to do those things would depend a lot on speed going in, hard or soft snow, turn radius, and other stuff.

For example, if the turn radius were quite small on hard snow, and/or the turn duration were quite short, more angulation throughout would be the call. If the turn radius were bigger, and I'd have time to line up more of my body length against the ski going into the the fall line, and maybe the snow was not so hard, I can see angulating less at first. If in this same turn, I didn't have to bring it around the corner (across the hill) too far, but the next turn were some distance away, I could angulate less at the end as well. In any event, if I'm in a situation where I'm in danger of losing the edge, when I want it to hold, I would probably angulate more. I think this is typical of very hard snow, and less necessary in softer snow.

Some of this is conjecture, because it's mainly a matter of feel: Am I in balance? Am I getting the most juice out of the ski? Am I making extra or artificial movements? Is my body aligning well to work the ski optimally--max speed, minimum effort?

I'd love to hear Martin Bell's thoughts on this, because he speaks pretty eloquently and simply about angulation.
post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Ok, cgeib. You are right, there's a lot that could be going on, and alot of things do have impact on what you'd choose to do. That was much of the intent here. Itemizing them would be very cool.

It seems so easy to say incline on entry and add as much angulation as you need later..... need to do what? For what purpose? How does that help me to decide?

What if I narrow things down significantly: the turn is going to be carved.
There is to be no steering. By that I mean "turning the feet"/"rotating the femurs in the hip socket" is not used to define the direction of the turn. We've started to turn, and have edge lock. I'd like to finish the turn with edge lock too....

BTW: A somewhat related question: Is it possible to heavily steer a turn/turn the feet while using hip angulation?
BigE,

Well, I’m sufficiently out of my depth here, but what the heck…

Since we’re riding the rail and cannot steer, I’m going to say: add as much angulation as you need in order to create the edge angle required to scribe the desired arc so the skis ultimately start converging with the path of your core – hopefully before you fall down, since you inclined so damn much to begin with!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
BTW: A somewhat related question: Is it possible to heavily steer a turn/turn the feet while using hip angulation?
I think so. Though I’ve not explored it as much as I intended to. Here's a thread on it from the past: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19377
post #17 of 41
Thread Starter 
: : :
post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
: : :
Meaning?

And now it's your turn.
post #19 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
....it's mainly a matter of feel: Am I in balance? Am I getting the most juice out of the ski? Am I making extra or artificial movements? Is my body aligning well to work the ski optimally--max speed, minimum effort?
So, it's up to me.

I was hoping there may be a recipe. Darn...
post #20 of 41
If I'm preparing for release, you're right, I want to be approaching a neutral stance on the skis.

I can't think of any way you can work with a "recipe" of skiing movements, BigE. Slope, snow, speed, visibility, general weather and how you're doing that moment all play a part in movement choices. They're all variables.
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
So, it's up to me.

I was hoping there may be a recipe. Darn...
That's the problem with needing too much precision and clarity in turns that are infinitely variable!

However, again, in most cases, I would recommend that most skiers just keep their shoulders more or less level--not tipped in, not tipped out, and they'll be very well balanced and adjustable in their angulation. (This is the clarity piece!)

NOW, it's your turn.
post #22 of 41
I could have sworn I had already responded to this question, but anyway...

I tip my skis to the desired edge angle to suit my chosen line. I vary pure inclination versus some angulation or a lot of angulation as needed so that my CM is where I want it to be. Where I want it to be depends on speed, snow conditions, what I'm doing and what I'm going to do next. I should only add that in producing angulation, I bend whatever has to bend while trying to avoid any move that causes discomfort in a joint.
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
So, it's up to me.

I was hoping there may be a recipe. Darn...
Pre-heat thread to low simmer.

Open one 16 oz. can of worms.....
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I could have sworn I had already responded to this question, but anyway...

I tip my skis to the desired edge angle to suit my chosen line. I vary pure inclination versus some angulation or a lot of angulation as needed so that my CM is where I want it to be. Where I want it to be depends on speed, snow conditions, what I'm doing and what I'm going to do next. I should only add that in producing angulation, I bend whatever has to bend while trying to avoid any move that causes discomfort in a joint.
This is perfect. As is Bonni's answer!
post #25 of 41
Thread Starter 
I like this answer. I think it can be distilled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
I think the faster speed would be about whether I could hold the line with the edge, not penetrate too deeply, use the energy from the ski to accelerate, and choose a line that is fast (not to round!) Now whether I would angulate more or less to be able to do those things would depend a lot on speed going in, hard or soft snow, turn radius, and other stuff.

For example, if the turn radius were quite small on hard snow, and/or the turn duration were quite short, more angulation throughout would be the call. If the turn radius were bigger, and I'd have time to line up more of my body length against the ski going into the the fall line, and maybe the snow was not so hard, I can see angulating less at first. If in this same turn, I didn't have to bring it around the corner (across the hill) too far, but the next turn were some distance away, I could angulate less at the end as well. In any event, if I'm in a situation where I'm in danger of losing the edge, when I want it to hold, I would probably angulate more. I think this is typical of very hard snow, and less necessary in softer snow.

Some of this is conjecture, because it's mainly a matter of feel: Am I in balance? Am I getting the most juice out of the ski? Am I making extra or artificial movements? Is my body aligning well to work the ski optimally--max speed, minimum effort?
The original question suggested that the edge angle could be obtained either way. It was NOT suggested that such an angle could be made to hold.

Balance does matter. If the skier is inclined and the ski starts to slide out, balance will be compromised. The ski could slide, because the torque on the ankle would grow and the skier may be less stable -- largely dependant on snow conditions.

The photo of the seldon from TGR carving the hardpack on really wide skis was how this question arose. Which brought out another factor -- the width of the ski. IMO, seldon needs to angulate alot more than most, due to the increased torque from the very wide skis he is using.

The common thread in weems' examples, and seldon's photos is that angulation is required to combat torque. Look at the examples, hard snow, high speed turns, short radius (or high edges), turn size -- shallow turns vs full turns across the hill -- as weems says "when I am in danger of losing an edge."

IMO, to angulate "when I am in danger of losing an edge" spawns the rule:

Incline when torque is low and angulate when torque is high.

Now I have a party to go to...

Cheers!
post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I like this answer. I think it can be distilled.



The original question suggested that the edge angle could be obtained either way. It was NOT suggested that such an angle could be made to hold.

Balance does matter. If the skier is inclined and the ski starts to slide out, balance will be compromised. The ski could slide, because the torque on the ankle would grow and the skier may be less stable -- largely dependant on snow conditions.

The photo of the seldon from TGR carving the hardpack on really wide skis was how this question arose. Which brought out another factor -- the width of the ski. IMO, seldon needs to angulate alot more than most, due to the increased torque from the very wide skis he is using.

The common thread in weems' examples, and seldon's photos is that angulation is required to combat torque. Look at the examples, hard snow, high speed turns, short radius (or high edges), turn size -- shallow turns vs full turns across the hill -- as weems says "when I am in danger of losing an edge."

IMO, to angulate "when I am in danger of losing an edge" spawns the rule:

Incline when torque is low and angulate when torque is high.

Now I have a party to go to...

Cheers!
And well distilled at that. I'm glad you agree with this, and explain it better than I did. Traditionally we always talked about lateral balancing functions of angulation while the edge was engaged. It is only recently that I've been so much aware of it as preparation for the possible loss of edging. I'm really aware of it on my new motorcycle. I've got a new 1200 GS, and on the slab, I seem to be able to countersteer and hang off to the inside really nicely--even tipping the bike less as I do so--and it works. But today I scared myself a bit during my first time out on dirt (I'm a crappy dirt rider!), but found myself very comfortable angulating for the same reason I'd do it in skiing. Seems like it's all about maintaining traction with the bike, and edge with the ski--except the penalty for error on the bike can be more severe (although I'm sure I'll learn how to skid it soon).

You've also clarified something for me that I wasn't getting with the big fat skis. Thanks.

Also, I knew this was a trick question!

And lastly, I have never read torque used this way. It's an interesting and great perception. Could you elaborate on that some more? (when you sober up from the party? )
post #27 of 41
This is becoming a little too techy for me, so I guess it's time to ...







Kiss off!
post #28 of 41
oops. I forgot where we were! Sorry, Bonni. Kisses to you to.

Start a new one. I'll kill anyone who kidnaps it!
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Could you elaborate on that some more? (when you sober up from the party? )
Yes, please more elaboration. I'm trying to bend my mind around what you're saying, but it's not registering!

Does Seldon need to angulate more because of the wider skis?...or does it take more effort for Seldon to angulate the same amount?

Am I understanding your application of torque here to be the force required to bring the ski on edge? ...wider ski takes more force to bring to X edge angle compared to narrower ski.

Could you clarify this relationship "incline when torque is low and angulate when torque is high." I would think that the faster I am traveling, the more I can incline into a turn, while at the same time the increasing forces at speed are going to require more torque to bring the skis on edge.

Chris
post #30 of 41
By the way, Bonni, the simple version here is that less experienced (at speed) and less athletic skiers should angulate most of the time, and that can be done with just keeping your torso upright and the plane across the top of your shoulders level. That will balance you in 95% of the situations you're in. Also, when you tip your torso to the inside, that will throw you off 95% of the time.
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