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Gender Imbalance - Page 10

post #271 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom
Maybe ski schools ought to do a "bring your mom to the hill days" promotion where you can give your mom free beginner ski lesson package if you bring her to the hill with you on those days. How about that ski industry folks; do you like that idea?
As I said earlier, a resort manager told me he believes that women are the key to the snow sport industry. He said that A kid might get the entire family to the slopes a few times, ...dad may go ski with his friends, but moms usually ski with the entire family and that sells more lift tickets and rooms.
post #272 of 332
I know a couple of women who are quite good skiers... They tell me that the reason for the lack of women's gear choices at the shop is that not many women who are actually "good" (Cindy's word, not mine) would be caught dead on women's skis. They use men's models. Women's models are a cop out I'm told.
post #273 of 332
When I said "quite good" skiers in my previous post, I wasn't talking about this "average female skier" good you guys keep mentioning.

I meant that they were probably better than me. And I'm pretty darn good. Just so there's no confusion...
post #274 of 332
I've heard women bagging women's skis, and I think K2 are reacting to this with next year's Luvs having no flowers on them. Plenty of "good" female skiiers are happy to be on women's skis (I've got a pair with huge flowers on), but there are other women who seem to still have something to prove, who hate the whole concept.

Psychology and ego are interesting things, aren't they?
post #275 of 332
I guess I must have something to prove then, as I reacted badly to skis with flowers. I'm willing to TRY them, but not BUY them. I feel that at my height and weight "men's" skis are more likely to have been designed with me in mind.
post #276 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
I've heard women bagging women's skis, and I think K2 are reacting to this with next year's Luvs having no flowers on them. Plenty of "good" female skiiers are happy to be on women's skis (I've got a pair with huge flowers on), but there are other women who seem to still have something to prove, who hate the whole concept.

Psychology and ego are interesting things, aren't they?
I can try to speak to the "girly" ski issue - this is something that I have wrestled with. And you're right - there IS a good bit of psychology wrapped up in it.

When I was growing up, I ran around with my two brothers and the three neighbor boys. We lived out of town, so If I wanted a girl friend to play Barbies with, my mom had to drive someone. Therefore, I ran with the boys alot. Because of that interaction, I learned really early that if something was "girly", it was BAD. If it was pink and frilly - it should be an object of derision (even if "I" thought it was cute - I kept my opinion to myself). If a boy acted in anyway that was deemed cowardly - he was a "sissy" (ie - a girl) and that was BAD. "You throw like a GIRL" was an insult - more BAD. "Women drivers" - more BAD. "Girl Cooties" - even MORE BAD.

Because of this early "indoctrination" in the late 60's and 70's, I have a knee-jerk reaction if something that is designed "for" women is too cutesy. I know it's psychological - I can't help it. I can look at a pair of Burnin' Luvs and have a simultaneous reaction of - oh isn't that cute - and - gotta steer clear of that.

Nowadays, there is an almost "in your face" backlash with female gear - at least at the upper levels. The Pinkness is almost a "female pride" thing. Like - Yeah, I'm a girl, what are ya gonna do about it? I can still ski your a$$ off the mountain.(not me personally).

I would LOVE to be one of those women who could wear the PINK with pride of accomplishment - but I'm not there. I'm still stuck back a few decades ago trying to be taken seriously.

It's a struggle - and I suspect that I'm not alone.
post #277 of 332
Frau, you've hit it on the head. And yeah, I see the flowers on my skis as "Yeah, they're pretty! I can wear these! Sucko"! It is pretty "in your face", I kind-of like the reverse sexism thing.

I really like that K2 (and Volkl) are taking the issue of women-specific gear seriously, and making gear that actually performs, and making it in a range of performance levels, not just soft stuff. I used to hate women's skis too, but the K2 stuff has changed my mind.

I did a few semesters of gender issues in my philosophy studies at ANU, and explored the whole Female/bad and weak vs Male/Good and Strong dichotomy, and so for those reasons too, I relish some kick-arse female specific gear. Complete with pink, flowers and other girly whatnot.
post #278 of 332
I don't understand the parameters of a womans ski. Men come in all sizes as do women . Women can be powerful and can be light footed as well . I don't understand. To me it looks like marketing
If that is the case then i don't blame women for not going for it.My daughters hate being slotted this way or that and choose their own path. I guess i forgot to teach them their limitations. I am kidding of course because i always drilled them not to accept the slots men and society want to place them in and define their own selves however they wish.
post #279 of 332
The argument is, that "unisex" skis are actually designed for men. Women are different, from skeleton onwards. I weigh more than most men, so was surprised to find a women-specific ski that felt great. My other pair of skis is men skis, and they feel great also.

For women to be desperately avoiding anything overtly female is to reinforce Female:Bad/Male:Good, to my mind.

They've bought the whole furphy, rather than saying Female/Male = DIFFERENT. Respect difference, rather than deny it.
post #280 of 332
Hmm, so the differance reflects how the female body weight and muscle groups are distrubuted and are differant than men?. I agree men probably did design for one structural type not considering the diifferances. Thanks again Ant
post #281 of 332
I'm no ski designer, so I'd like to hear how a ski knows (or can be built to react to) anything more than weight and pressure without regard to the body structure producing the pressure. Is the fact that a woman has more weight located lower on her body than a male going to impact the way the ski reacts? I'd think for a given height, given weight, given speed, that the ski would react the same without regard to how far above the ankle the weight was. Am I wrong?
post #282 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
I'm no ski designer, so I'd like to hear how a ski knows (or can be built to react to) anything more than weight and pressure without regard to the body structure producing the pressure. Is the fact that a woman has more weight located lower on her body than a male going to impact the way the ski reacts? I'd think for a given height, given weight, given speed, that the ski would react the same without regard to how far above the ankle the weight was. Am I wrong?
While I can't say from experience, there are some ski designers, testers, and marketing executives who would suggest you are, but hey, I'm just posting to keep my fingers nimble.
post #283 of 332
On womens ski gear -- For years I avoided it and was always told in shops as strong female skier I should be on the mens/unisex gear. A few years ago the advice seemed to start changing and lots of very good women skiers I now ski on the Volkl and K2 womens skis.

Flowers -- When I first saw the K2 Burnin Luvs I said no way would I buy a ski with flowers on it. But as time went on and I saw lots of good women on the ski I considererd it for my next ski -- demo-ed it and in the end didn't buy it, but not because of the flowers.

I clearly see a trend for good women skiers to be more girly (yes even though I too grew up with that being a bad thing). I sometimes see something pink and flowery and the thought is "you need to be really good and confident to wear that" -- I think that is what makes it cool in the right way.

Why adult women quit skiing -- I think men are a big reason that women that start skiing quit. I am ONLY talking about grown up women who try to learn for the skiing men in their lives. Look at how men teach their friends (and girlfriends) -- its a throw you in it and survive technique. The men in many women's lives push them to ski stuff they aren't comfortble with because the man wants to skis it and hopes the woman will make it down with him (again here I am ONLY talking about a man who skis teaching a beginner woman). They quit before they get good enough to be fun to ski with because they were pushed too fast. Same goes for kids -- I hate seeing the power wedge straight down an expert trail -- it doesn't help the kids learn to SKI. I spent a lot of time on easy stuff for a few years with my kids -- and now we as a family can rip fast down anything in the east but also pop down double black extremes out west in style! It was worth a few years on blues (and a lot of lessons, tons of ski days, ski team program...). A lot of men don't sacrifice to make the investment in teaching their companions. Its more like -- join me -- you can survive right?

To get a grown women to take to skiing I think you need lessons, lots of ski time, and girlfriends to ski with in addition to spouse/family. When my husband learned he was taught first by a male friend -- the man got him going to the top of the mountain fast and straight quickly. Then, I took him to easier terrain to teach him to turn! To me skiing is about turning - the graceful flow of a turn -- that turn can be ripping fast down the fall line but it is still a turn. We mixed part of the day skiing fast with his guy friends and part on easier terrain following my turns, skiing on one ski etc.

I have a group of women ski friends (all parents of racers) and we really enjoy having women friends that can ski. Many of these women have become much stronger skiers over the past few years as we just get tons of mileage -- and I guess learn from our kids too. I've usually skied with mostly men but we really enjoy our girls chairlift rides.

Not all of the women are as strong but I think in this group we have helped bring out more passion in a few who aren't really passionate about skiing (ski for the family but didn't really love it). We've encouraged and cheered on a friend as she did her first double black gladed trail. Her husband was pretty proud when she told him later. Support. Encouragement. Pals. Fun. That is what helps.

Always Skiing
post #284 of 332
A lot can be gleaned from this thread alone as to what a pink or flowered ski may signal to some women.

A constant theme played throughout this thread is that the “average” woman skier is less aggressive, and needs encouragement to ski and/or to venture into challenging terrain. It is a theme that will likely be in the minds of any ski company designing for women in general. That said, a ski that is pink, flowered, or otherwise frilly automatically brings to mind a ski designed to make things more comfortable or easy.

For that reason alone, I’m sorry to say and with all due respect to the women who participated in the design of any pink or flowered skis, women who do not need any encouragement and who expect other things from a ski may veer away from a pink, flowered, or otherwise frilly ski.

I don’t know anything about the skis currently on the market, and know even less about ski design. It sounds like there are wonderful women’s skis out there, and it could be that they are not so designed for the “average” woman skier. But it’s hard to imagine any other design criteria for a woman’s ski. If designed as performance skis for smaller or lighter skiers, I would think they would be marketed as such to bring in junior skiers as well as smaller or lighter male skiers.
post #285 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by colopete
I know a couple of women who are quite good skiers... They tell me that the reason for the lack of women's gear choices at the shop is that not many women who are actually "good" (Cindy's word, not mine) would be caught dead on women's skis. They use men's models. Women's models are a cop out I'm told.
I believed this up until this season, when I bought a pair of Lotta Luvs and coveted some demo-ed Phat Luvs. I consider myself a pretty solid skier, and the folks I ski with--men and women-- would never ski anything other than unisex skis built by companies like Atomic and Stockli. (Ex-racer friends, you see.)

I am not an ex-racer, though, just an athlete and non-girly, pretty brave, strong skier who's been skiing for 23 years or so. I also happen to be built like a woman--small (5'2", 110lbs) with hips and a woman's center of gravity. At the end of the day, I found that I got a lot out of the womens' skis, just like I get a lot out of some of the softer flexing all-mountain unisex skis, like the Dynastar 8000, for instance. I am so small, however, that some of the great all-mountain skis that I would like to rock just don't come short enough for me to flex at my height and weight.

I don't think it's fair to say that "good" female skiers don't or won't ski the womens' skis. I am certainly not a *flowery* type, and I probably would have skied something else wide-waisted and intended for the back bowls had the skis I wanted to test come in something approaching the right length.
post #286 of 332
I love the women's skis!!! The Lotta Luv rocks, especially if you're on the petite end of the scale. I love the flowers on the topskin and the fact that the flowers on the skis match the flowers on the bindings and the poles...I had to buy a jacket to match!

I also wear a junior boot.

I spent years trying to get men's equipment to work for me and my skiing improved 110% when I finally admitted I'm not a man. You can't shrink men's stuff down and have it be appropriate. The materials must also be different.
post #287 of 332
I was told by the owner of a ski shop that the recommended min weight for most mens skis is about 120lb. The min weight needed to flex women's ski effectively is a lot less.

My daughter wears jr boots, because they're the same boot as the women's, but they're about $100 less. I wear a woman's boot because the cuff just fits better.

I'm use to the women's version of things being inferior to the mens, but still costing the same. Consumer Reports has reported on this and we've all seen it. But, it's also often obvious that sometins the women's version is actually the best one. When I buy boots, I can see and feel the difference in the shop. Ski are different. It's hard to demo womens skis and they don't get the press that mens do. I also admit that my ego will not permit me to use skis with flowers. I want to be one of the boys and fit in. I want to sit on the lift and discuss the skis I have or the one's I dream of. Maybe I just hang with too many gearheads. Maybe I just am a gearhead. Is there a help group for this? I did break down and buy girl socks that are in a pretty light blue so maybe there is hope. Even if I overcome this, my daughter has stated that she'll disown me if I have skis with flowers. I guess racers just don't do girly skis or have mothers with girly skis. I'll have to look for women's skis that look like mens skis.
post #288 of 332
I understand some girl racers wear tiaras.

It really is okay to be a girl and an athlete. We don't have to look any particular way to ski hot. Chicks rule.
post #289 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollmeister
I believed this up until this season, when I bought a pair of Lotta Luvs and coveted some demo-ed Phat Luvs. I consider myself a pretty solid skier, and the folks I ski with--men and women-- would never ski anything other than unisex skis built by companies like Atomic and Stockli. (Ex-racer friends, you see.)
hmmmm must be something in this....
I haved skied atomic,volkl and then stockli skis... love stockli and very loath to change... this year i bought some Lotta Luvs though after Nolo suggested i try them....
post #290 of 332
The best joke with K2's ladies' line, is that the flowers get bigger and more numerous as you go up the line. The Burnin Luv flowers are kind of blended in with the yellow. The Lottas have a lot more flowers, and my Phat Luvs have giant hibiscus on them, huge ones. This year's Phat Luvs were even worse, they were bright pink with masses of pink flowers. With a 95mm waist and speed to burn. An intermediate skiier would struggle with them.

It's really sad that a lot of women won't touch anything with flowers on as "that's girly" as though that's bad or will get in the way of them being a "good" skiier.

I liked what Always Skiing had to say. I've observed the same stuff, over and over. And like nothing better than a girls' day out, we had several this season and they were definite high points. We have a choice, we can do it the guy way, and we can do it the girls way. Double the fun.
post #291 of 332
My career interests have often led to my being a women in the midst of many men. Men may have the impression that women enjoy this, maybe because they would like to be outnumbered by the opposite sex. The truth is, that it is not especially fun to be working in an environment that is mostly men. Too many men and too few womenmeans critical decisions can end up being p***ing contests instead the result of reasoned thinking. If you look at the records of assaults on women attending military academies, you will realize that lots of men and few women is not healthy for women.

To make a long story short, a woman has to be really driven to engage in any activity in which she is outnumbered by men.
post #292 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
The best joke with K2's ladies' line, is that the flowers get bigger and more numerous as you go up the line. The Burnin Luv flowers are kind of blended in with the yellow. The Lottas have a lot more flowers, and my Phat Luvs have giant hibiscus on them, huge ones. This year's Phat Luvs were even worse, they were bright pink with masses of pink flowers. ....
To be fair, big and bright flowers are actually LESS feminine than small, faint ones. Think beach trunks and Hawaiian prints, as opposed to calico fabric. Not a huge point, but nevertheless ....
post #293 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by denyadog
My career interests have often led to my being a women in the midst of many men. Men may have the impression that women enjoy this, maybe because they would like to be outnumbered by the opposite sex. The truth is, that it is not especially fun to be working in an environment that is mostly men. Too many men and too few womenmeans critical decisions can end up being p***ing contests instead the result of reasoned thinking. If you look at the records of assaults on women attending military academies, you will realize that lots of men and few women is not healthy for women.

To make a long story short, a woman has to be really driven to engage in any activity in which she is outnumbered by men.
I've always worked in jobs where men seriously outnumbered women (including the military) and I actually prefer it. I went through ROTC and was in a corps of cadets (i.e. lived in a dorm that was all ROTC so I usually had about 6 women and 100 guys on my floor.) and don't know any women who had any harrassment/assault issues. No idea why it's such an issue at the academies. I had a boss make a move on me once when I was active duty, which was quickly solved with a "no thanks, how's your wife doing these days?" End of story. But I'm pretty sure that can happen in any environment.

I've been in plenty of work/military situations where I was the only woman. And usually didn't even realize it until someone pointed it out later. In my personal experience, if you act professional, pull your weight and do your job, it is very rare to run into a problem because of gender.
post #294 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by whistlerjkny
A lot can be gleaned from this thread alone as to what a pink or flowered ski may signal to some women.

A constant theme played throughout this thread is that the “average” woman skier is less aggressive, and needs encouragement to ski and/or to venture into challenging terrain. It is a theme that will likely be in the minds of any ski company designing for women in general. That said, a ski that is pink, flowered, or otherwise frilly automatically brings to mind a ski designed to make things more comfortable or easy.

For that reason alone, I’m sorry to say and with all due respect to the women who participated in the design of any pink or flowered skis, women who do not need any encouragement and who expect other things from a ski may veer away from a pink, flowered, or otherwise frilly ski.
I'm proof that this is not true. What I have found is that when I'm starting a sport, I go with traditional men's gear. I want to blend in and be taken seriously. Once I'm comfortable that I'm good at it, I WANT girly looking, but still high performance gear. I want people to know that I'm a woman, especially when I'm doing something well. Exactly what FRAU was talking about here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRAU
Nowadays, there is an almost "in your face" backlash with female gear - at least at the upper levels. The Pinkness is almost a "female pride" thing. Like - Yeah, I'm a girl, what are ya gonna do about it? I can still ski your a$$ off the mountain.(not me personally).

I would LOVE to be one of those women who could wear the PINK with pride of accomplishment - but I'm not there. I'm still stuck back a few decades ago trying to be taken seriously.
And I own two pairs of Phat Luvs, FWIW. (And 4 pairs of mens/unisex skis.)
post #295 of 332
At first, the notion that women were being relegated to a pink + flower scheme did not seem very modern or imaginative.
But if it is an “in your face” deal, then that’s great, and it makes more sense.
post #296 of 332

Now, I am a bit confused here.

Being a man, intermediate/ advanced skier, what kind of graphics am I suppose to have on my skis if I want to ski well? I knew there was something there that was holding me back! :-) First thing I'll do when I get home (I am at work now, it's 8:00 am for me) is to check the graphics on my skis, for I haven't got a clue as for what's on them. I only know I made sure that my skis and boots have matching colors (the same goes for my ski jacket, helmet, gloves and goggles of course…).Now, let's make it official here, if I'll find flowers that I like, I'll have them on my skis, diving gear and bikes. Guns? No. Naked figures? No. Even if it will keep me from becoming an advanced skier. BTW, what ARE men graphics anyway?
post #297 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by altagirl
I've been in plenty of work/military situations where I was the only woman. And usually didn't even realize it until someone pointed it out later. In my personal experience, if you act professional, pull your weight and do your job, it is very rare to run into a problem because of gender.
Ditto on the work situation, but not military.

Acting professional, pulling your weight, and doing your job is a good start to doing well.
I think one point denyadog was trying to make was that people often have the misperception that women are enjoying a field day when outnumbered by men at work when, in fact, it is a non-issue and we are focusing on work rather than on the male:female ratio. Work is enjoyable if you like it, regardless of the ratio. Same with skiing.
post #298 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyal_Shahar
Now, let's make it official here, if I'll find flowers that I like, I'll have them on my skis, diving gear and bikes.
Let's not overplay the flowers issue here. It was a savvy marketing move by K2, which has made many of these previously, in which they combine wit, an up-to-date cultural sensitivity (grrl power), and a long-standing commitment to making a quality ski product (not always realized, but reasonably frequently), which in this case is gender-specific. (I suspect its mostly guys getting their "Public enemy" twin-tips.)

Browsing the K2 website, I came across this memorial to Bill Kirschner, the founder of K2, who just passed away at age 87: http://www.k2skis.com/news/default.asp. In it is the note that: "During the 2005/06 winter season, K2 Skis were #1 in the US market in both unit sales (volume) and dollar value." Savvy indeed.

(Incidentally, regarding your diving gear, the PADI open water instruction manual spends a surprising amount of text assuring us that the components can be obtained iin matching colors. Fortunately this did not show up in the certification tests).
post #299 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarCube
I started to ski after I turned the big 4-0. Overcoming a perceived fear was one of the main reasons why…that, and my daughter's endlessly nagging helped too. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve decided life’s too short to let fear hold me back from experiencing something that could be really fun. Just a personal philosophy…so, along with some other things I wanted to try, I learned to ski.

Do I still wrestle with fear? Sure, and it’s held me back from skiing more difficult terrain when my technique indicates that I could indeed ski it. So that’s something I have to still work on, and I will because I don’t want to let fear get the better of me.
This sounds EXACTLY like my Mom, who, at 61 is finally skiing more difficult runs with confidence (mostly). She also races Nastar every chance she gets, and has conned all her friends into skiing. She said she just got tired of skiing scared because it wasn't fun anymore.

She and her friends come North to ski every Sunday, all season long and they just love it.
post #300 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by altagirl
I've always worked in jobs where men seriously outnumbered women (including the military) and I actually prefer it. I went through ROTC and was in a corps of cadets (i.e. lived in a dorm that was all ROTC so I usually had about 6 women and 100 guys on my floor.) and don't know any women who had any harrassment/assault issues. No idea why it's such an issue at the academies. I had a boss make a move on me once when I was active duty, which was quickly solved with a "no thanks, how's your wife doing these days?" End of story. But I'm pretty sure that can happen in any environment.

I've been in plenty of work/military situations where I was the only woman. And usually didn't even realize it until someone pointed it out later. In my personal experience, if you act professional, pull your weight and do your job, it is very rare to run into a problem because of gender.
Well, perhaps things have changed. In the early 70's I was working at a military base (non-military job), one woman, several thousand men, and they posted a guard outside the womens barracks. I guess my point is, some women, regardless of their skills and committment aren't comfortable around the big, strong, fast guys in groups.
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