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Tip Lead - Often Discussed, rarely understood - Page 3

post #61 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
The pendulum has swung back towards afir more amount of weight on the outside ski. it swung way to far the other way for a while 50/50 but i really thing 90/10 (outside inside) to 80/20 is a more reasonable split. And may be still be too high. maybe 95/5 is where we end up. of course these are not exact numbers just a refernce point of range & feel between 100/0 & 0/100%

I think of my little toe edge of my inside ski as more of a "virtual edge". I think it is more important that you initiate your turn with that edge and let everything else fall into place then trying to put too much weight on it. I skied yesterday and experimented with inside foot hold back while tipping the inside edge and keeping knees and shafts parallel.

works like a charm. It causes you to easily stay on top of your skis (read leading your skis down the hill vs. them leading you) and allows the inside ski to carve a tighter arc, which it must do since it travels a shorter distance in a turn then the outside ski. But again it is more like a virtual edge.

One thing I noticed about Deb, is it looks like a drill and she is overexaggerating and I agree it looks bad. Also she is very inconsistent in the width of her stance as she skis down the hilll in the video.

ALL of what you describe here is what PMTS advocates and has done since the first Harb booked arrived.

Your first paragraph is a clear reason why many people like the KISS principles of PMTS. PMTS has not gone through years of experimentation about which ski to weight and with how much.

The confusion generated for the ski instructor and the ski school consumers is breathtaking. I was once one of those consumers and experienced much of that confused mixed message. I wasted a sh.t load of money in the process as well.
post #62 of 99
"ALL of what you describe here is what PMTS advocates and has done since the first Harb booked arrived."
And skiers were doing that before the "first Harb book arrived".
Harald didn't invent this stuff, he just wrote about what he, and a lot of others, saw.
20+ years ago a friend of Harald's (I only found out he knew Harald last year) told me "the dynamics of the turn determine how much weight is on the outside ski". Or at least something to that effect.
post #63 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
"ALL of what you describe here is what PMTS advocates and has done since the first Harb booked arrived."
And skiers were doing that before the "first Harb book arrived".
Harald didn't invent this stuff, he just wrote about what he, and a lot of others, saw.
20+ years ago a friend of Harald's (I only found out he knew Harald last year) told me "the dynamics of the turn determine how much weight is on the outside ski". Or at least something to that effect.
From a european perspective this doesent really make any sence. I have been skiing since the mid 60s attending ski schools in different countries and finally becomming instructor myself in 94 and the inside ski weighting discussion has been ongoing for as long as I remember. (There was an 60y old man back in early 80's that tried to convince me that we should keep even weight on both skis but his skiing was all out crappy and nonfunctional. Maybe he was before his time or maybe someone else has been far behind.)
post #64 of 99
The point I was trying to make is that weight transfer to the outside ski has a lot to do with balancing against the forces of the turn. I try to stay away from saying things like 50-50 or 60-40. Tip the skis and let physics decide for you. It's more art than science.
Do you think Kimi is going to Ferrari?
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
"ALL of what you describe here is what PMTS advocates and has done since the first Harb booked arrived."
And skiers were doing that before the "first Harb book arrived".
Harald didn't invent this stuff, he just wrote about what he, and a lot of others, saw.
20+ years ago a friend of Harald's (I only found out he knew Harald last year) told me "the dynamics of the turn determine how much weight is on the outside ski". Or at least something to that effect.

I never said he invented anything. My point was that HH has not led a merry-go-round of indecisiveness as to what are the most effective ski movements. Sure they are just his opinions but at least they haven't consistently changed over the years as discribed by Atomicman....

Quote "The pendulum has swung back towards a far more amount of weight on the outside ski. It swung way too far the other way for a while 50/50 but i really think 90/10 (outside inside) to 80/20 is a more reasonable split. And may be still be too high. maybe 95/5 is where we end up. of course these are not exact numbers just a refernce point of range & feel between 100/0 & 0/100%" Unquote

My misfortune was to be part of that consistently changing instruction message and image of what good skiing is. I have sorted the problem for myself but I now have the problem of my kids possibly being taught to ski like Deb Armstrong from the ski school desk. I would be pretty p.ssed if they end up with that sort of gorilla style, particularly for my young daughter! It may win ski races but.......
post #66 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
The point I was trying to make is that weight transfer to the outside ski has a lot to do with balancing against the forces of the turn. I try to stay away from saying things like 50-50 or 60-40. Tip the skis and let physics decide for you. It's more art than science.
Do you think Kimi is going to Ferrari?
Its hard for me to believe that he would be swapping to Ferrari since Häkkinen and Kimi have both been driving for McClaren for the past 10y or more.

Your viewpoints on weight distribution is righ on target. I think this whole discussion on how much weight is confusing since its varrying all the time. In the states they put sensors under the boots of skiers and they turned out to be exactly as suspected, lots of weight on outside ski and varying ammount on inside depending on situation.
post #67 of 99
Please keep in mind there is a big difference between working both skis and weighting both....we should always strive to use (steer or carve) both, but not always weight (or try to weight) both evenly.

Lowest common denominator here.

Shorter turn and/or lower speed more even weight distribution.
Longer turn and/or higher speed more heavily weighted on the outside ski.

I didn't make the rule up here.....this pretty much happens naturally when we balance dynamically.
post #68 of 99
Stance width and other factors contribute to manipulating (edge/pressure/steer) the inside ski. A balanced/dynamic skier does not have a tip lead issue and therefore has no need of pulling his inside ski under him.
post #69 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski
I never said he invented anything. My point was that HH has not led a merry-go-round of indecisiveness as to what are the most effective ski movements. Sure they are just his opinions but at least they haven't consistently changed over the years as discribed by Atomicman....

My misfortune was to be part of that consistently changing instruction message and image of what good skiing is.
The message has changed out of necessity, as the ski technology has changed, and instructor education bodies have tried to analyse how the world's most effective skiers (current WC racers) are utilising that technology. Anyone who compares racing videos of the 1980s and today can see that certain things have changed. Other principles have remained constant. Which, and how much - there's the question!
post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski
I now have the problem of my kids possibly being taught to ski like Deb Armstrong from the ski school desk. I would be pretty p.ssed if they end up with that sort of gorilla style, particularly for my young daughter! It may win ski races but.......
Hence the need for coaches to keep introducing drills to encourage versatility. Get the kids to ski with extra-wide stance, extra-narrow stance, on one ski, on both skis, leaning forward, leaning back, pivoted, carved, skidded. That way, they will eventually be able to alter their technique at will, from one turn to another - and ski in the way which best pleases their parents aesthetically if necessary!
post #71 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
Please keep in mind there is a big difference between working both skis and weighting both....we should always strive to use (steer or carve) both, but not always weight (or try to weight) both evenly.

Lowest common denominator here.

Shorter turn and/or lower speed more even weight distribution.
Longer turn and/or higher speed more heavily weighted on the outside ski.

I didn't make the rule up here.....this pretty much happens naturally when we balance dynamically.
Yes!
post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
Longer turn and/or higher speed more heavily weighted on the outside ski.
That would certainly tie in with those photos of DHers.
post #73 of 99
I would not put any credence in those 1 frame still photos. Although i agree with with the concept, everyone of those shots shows a terrain change just behind the racer except maybe the one behind Bode. A single frame does not show the whole story!

Lemaster's montages are much more compelling & telling!
post #74 of 99
I like the post I read about coaching the Mahre brothers, he said they practiced all the right and wrong ways to load and unload a ski and it gave them the independant foot action to deal with any situation. Mostly this would help when you are in disaster/recovery mode . In skiing we all know that sometimes your lower leg gets taken from you and you need to recover or eat snow.
post #75 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Although i agree with with the concept, everyone of those shots shows a terrain change just behind the racer except maybe the one behind Bode. A single frame does not show the whole story!

Lemaster's montages are much more compelling & telling!
A fair point - except I think that shot is of Daron Rahlves!

Sometimes the montages don't show clear ski/snow interaction because individual frames are pasted on to a background. But this is definitely a two-footed turn!
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...4-gs-1-wm.html
This one is not so clear:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...004-gs-1d.html
And this one starts out two-footed and ends up one-footed (possibly because of a rutted up course):
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...s-1-final.html
post #76 of 99
PSIA "TIP LEAD"?



Uh, oh....

(Thanks, Cirquerider for the demo link...)
post #77 of 99
if PSIA Man uses tip lead, it must be OK!!!
post #78 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
Sometimes the montages don't show clear ski/snow interaction because individual frames are pasted on to a background. But this is definitely a two-footed turn!
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...4-gs-1-wm.html
This one is not so clear:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...004-gs-1d.html
And this one starts out two-footed and ends up one-footed (possibly because of a rutted up course):
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...s-1-final.html
Inclination is dominant in the shot of the first skier, so some weight is present on the inside ski.

The second two are moving from an inclined position to an angulated position. The result is the reduced weight on the inside ski, and complete stacking onto the outside leg. The move is not complete in the burst shot of Bode.
post #79 of 99
BigE, thanks for that, good point. In the 1st sequence, it also looks like Hermann is moving from inclination to a little more angulation as well. Of course, some of that may be gate avoidance.
post #80 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf
PSIA "TIP LEAD"?



Uh, oh....

(Thanks, Cirquerider for the demo link...)
This is only possible in the animated world!!??
post #81 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf
PSIA "TIP LEAD"?



Uh, oh....

(Thanks, Cirquerider for the demo link...)

This is only possible in the animated world!!??
tdk6, that's not an animation ...it's actual video footage.

PSIMan is real ...I've skied with him
post #82 of 99
He sure does pull that inside foot back as soon as it has done it's job
post #83 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
He sure does pull that inside foot back as soon as it has done it's job
garry if i remember PSIAman anatomy correctly he can't pull nothing back he hasn't the joints to flex....

I think he is a perfect example of how the pelvis(hips) move to create "tip lead" ..... from memory Rick(fastman) had a few nice posts on this
post #84 of 99
Yeah. i was being silly. but the stability he has does make a point in the tip lead discussion
post #85 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
A fair point - except I think that shot is of Daron Rahlves!

Sometimes the montages don't show clear ski/snow interaction because individual frames are pasted on to a background. But this is definitely a two-footed turn!
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...4-gs-1-wm.html
This one is not so clear:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...004-gs-1d.html
And this one starts out two-footed and ends up one-footed (possibly because of a rutted up course):
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...s-1-final.html
Which shot is Daron Rahlves? nevermind, i got it, in your post on pg 2.
post #86 of 99
2-footed carving is also possible on other surfaces...
http://www.snowsportengland.org.uk/p...ll/CAL/S10.jpg
post #87 of 99
So I finally got around to reading this topic and I've got to throw in my $0.02.

First, there are two kinds of tip lead. Good and bad--or possibly more accurately, natural and unnatural. Bad tip lead occurs if and only if the heel of the inside foot is forward of the hips. The reason this is bad is because it limits your ability to shift your weight to the inside foot in order to make a transition (or make a recovery move if you are skiing two-footed). If the ski is forward, you will either not be able to shift your weight at all, or you will be able to do so, but only at the expense of being in the back seat. In either case, you will not be able to make an effective transition. This is the only level of tip lead that is counter productive.

When skiing with equal weight distribution on both skis, reducing tip lead beyond what you get naturally (by pulling the inside ski back) can be beneficial in that at will allow more uniform flexing, more parallel shins, and more uniform edge angles. However, not all situations recommend themselves to skiing this way; it should be a choice, not a dogma.

So what is "good" tip lead? Good tip lead occurs naturally as a result of countering. Countering is necessary for proper hip angulation. Hip angulation is necessary to put weight on the outside ski (more angulation == more weight). To acheive any kind of an edge angle, we have to inclinate--that is position our body to oppose the centrifugal force stacked against us in the turn. However, leaning directly into the turn does not allow us to put weight on the outside ski. To do that we have to shift our torso back towards the outside of the turn. One way to do this is to bend outward at the hips, but the problem is we don't get very much range of motion this way. A better approach is to open the hips towards the outside of the turn (counter). This enables us to bend in what is now a forward direction, which gives us the full range of motion to push our torso out over our skis. Additionally, this motion stacks our body such that the femur of the outside leg takes all of the weight. IOW it puts the weight where we are strongest and most able to to take it.

Now the motion of opening our hips is what creates good tip-lead. This is what you are seeing in the world-cup montages. If you stand with your feet facing forward, shoulder-width, and swivel your hips to the right, you will notice that your left knee collapses, and your right leg straightens. Your left foot wants to slide forward, but it can't because you are standing on it. On snow, however, it will slide forward. The key, however, is that it will remain underneath your hip--keeping you in balance.

A while back there was a thread about pushing the inside foot forward to start a turn. At the time I suggested that motion was an effect rather than a cause in a good turn. I'm more convinced now than ever that my intuition was correct. The problem with thinking of pushing your foot forward, is that motion is not self-limiting. If you slide your foot forward, you can keep going until the back cuff of your boot stops you (or if you want to pick up your ski, you can go even further). Regardless, pushing your foot forward moves it forward of your hips and out of balance. However, if you start to counter with a hip rotation, your foot will clear forward, but the motion is naturally self-limiting and it will remain under your hip where it belongs. It may feel as if you are pushing your leg forward, but the key is that the hips control everything.

My guess is that the "push your inside leg forward" advice is causing people to develop bad tip lead because it automatically puts them out of balance. The only recovery is to pull your foot back under your hip where it belongs--but then if you used your hips to begin with, you would never have to do this.

As for the notion that you get tip-lead when you steer (or "pivot") that is certainly true, but so what? Steering is a valid way of initiating a turn and must happen in order to execute a turn inside of the ski's turning radius. Most race turns happen that way--steer to an angle that will allow you to intercept the arc at the point in which you can finish your turn where you need to be. Regardless, the tip lead you get from steering is the same you get from countering--if you are steering with your femur, your feet don't move out from under your hips, so there is no problem.
post #88 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
So I finally got around to reading this topic ...

...Bad tip lead occurs if and only if the heel of the inside foot is forward of the hips.
Wow, it only took you almost 2 years to get to it :-)

Not disagreeing with your description but what about this montage
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-2.html

What is he doing at the end of each turn? Is it bad tip lead? Why he is doing that? Is this a technical flaw in his skiing?
post #89 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensMan View Post
Wow, it only took you almost 2 years to get to it :-)

Not disagreeing with your description but what about this montage
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-2.html

What is he doing at the end of each turn? Is it bad tip lead? Why he is doing that? Is this a technical flaw in his skiing?
Are you talking about the fact that he's back on his skis at the end of the turn? That isn't tip lead that is causing that. You can tell because he's got snow coming off the inside ski--so he's got active pressure on it. If he were to move back forward, his inside heel would be under his hip (which is where it is through most of the turn).

Rather, what you are seeing is a deliberate shift back on his part which accomplishes two things. First it ensures that the tails of his skis don't wash out--by moving presure to the tails, he is increasing edge angle and penetration of his tails as he exits the turn. Second, because moving aft takes pressure off the forebody of the ski, it helps him release his turn faster.

At least that would be my understanding based on what I've learned from Mr. LeMaster
post #90 of 99
It may be difficult to see from the angle of the shot but I believe his inside ski/foot is well ahead of his outside ski at the end of the turn, just before transition. In last turn it looks like tip of his outside ski is almost level with other ski bindings and those are probably at least 191cm or longer skis. So I'm not talking about balance back at end of the turn and in transition, I think I see huge tip lead at the end of the turn.
I'm not questioning basic ideas of this thread and I think your post on good vs bad tip lead is right on. Still, I think Svindal has excessive tip lead compare to many other skiers (here is another montage to compare http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-2.html) and apparently it did not hurt his skiing much and he is still able to keep pressure on his inside ski.
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