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RECCO and the Mammoth slide - Page 3

post #61 of 83
But for 30 € you get a dog receiver. While I don't like the idea of people wearing a tranceiver with which one cannot search - I heavily prefer it over Recco.

For an inbound system I think there should rather be more work to make thoses dog receivers cheaper than to have people woring 10 pieces of Recco crap leaving the rescuers searching for recco tranceivers floation around in the avalanche. Be sure that on most mountains one will first search for beacon signals and then begin searching for Recco reflections.
post #62 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver
But for 30 € you get a dog receiver. While I don't like the idea of people wearing a tranceiver with which one cannot search - I heavily prefer it over Recco.

For an inbound system I think there should rather be more work to make thoses dog receivers cheaper than to have people woring 10 pieces of Recco crap leaving the rescuers searching for recco tranceivers floation around in the avalanche. Be sure that on most mountains one will first search for beacon signals and then begin searching for Recco reflections.
This is quite possibly the most uninteligent thing that I have ever heard.
post #63 of 83
extremecarver - You're a troll, right.
post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan
Odd, isn't it. those of us with the most amount of avi experience are the ones arguing that people should use the recco system, although we also are the ones who take far more precautions.
That's the most compelling arugement that anybody has made in this thread.

L
post #65 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver
For an inbound system I think there should rather be more work to make thoses dog receivers cheaper than to have people woring 10 pieces of Recco crap leaving the rescuers searching for recco tranceivers floation around in the avalanche. Be sure that on most mountains one will first search for beacon signals and then begin searching for Recco reflections.

One problem with Recco (already) is that they are plentiful. Recco works best if you can get it there early before all the Atomic boots, Marker jackets, and other sources of Recco reflectors start to confuse the scene. If I had a choice of what to buried with, it would definitely be a tranceiver, not a Recco, but a Recco is about 1000 times better than nothing.
post #66 of 83
I didn't want to miscredit recco here.

It's just that in Europe there are so many jackets sold with Recco for people who will not even go to the mountains that I consider the money put in Recco as a dead loss.

For sure there is a very good reason for Recco - For me most importantly that rescuers can find dead bodies faster and do not need to expose themselves much longer in case of imminent avy danger.

At my home mountain a big avalanche went down and about 100 people searched for many hours to find two people which were thought to maybe be in there. If a law existed that everyone in backcountry has to carry a Recco reflector - I would consider this as good as in that case it would be enough to have 3-4 people searching for Recco reflections and as it turned out noone was buried - leave shortly after and not up to 100 people searching a 300m wide 1km long avalange run for dead bodies.

But as long as there can be no 100% guarantee that people carry a Recco reflectot - I don't consider Recco as great use.
post #67 of 83
It's just that in Europe there are so many jackets sold with Recco for people who will not even go to the mountains that I consider the money put in Recco as a dead loss.


I am sorry but your logic makes no sense. So what?

Recco is mainly for snow and avalanche rescue applications, yes. Along with other S.A.R. applications.

It doesn't matter that 100 rescuers show up on scene with Atomic boots and Nevica jackets. The operator of the Recco unit can position him/herself to not pick up those folks and still perform a Recco scan of a debris field.

Recco isn't the end all, just another tool and a very inexpensive tool at that. If more people wore the tags, more recievers could be stationed at more rescue caches and Recco could be a more first line part of avalanche rescue.

When transcievers first came out people said all the same things being said here.

The strength of the Recco system is the diode is passive, has a huge life span and requires no maintenence or batteries.
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunion
[i]It doesn't matter that 100 rescuers show up on scene with Atomic boots and Nevica jackets. The operator of the Recco unit can position him/herself to not pick up those folks and still perform a Recco scan of a debris field.
.
I don't want to discredit Recco, because it has the potential to be a wonderful tool. My remarks that an abundance of reflectors make it more difficult to use echo the comments of real live patrol who have used them in real live searches. I'm sure there are people out there who can deal with multiple signals with ease, but until someone that expert is behind every receiver the problem remains.

Someone posted here once asking if he put Reccos on his skis and lost one in the powder, maybe the patrol would find it for him. I replied they would flog you with the remaining ski, but I'm sure someone has stuck them on skis already. Please don't put them on anything that can become detached from your body!
post #69 of 83
Newfy, I am a Recco Trainer for my area so I do have a bit of background.

It takes practice and a search strategy, thats all, no mysteries.

You should also ditch your Handheld & a cell if you are carrying one.

The Recco operator needs to position himself so that any potential bastard signals are in the 150 degrees behind him.

An experienced Recco operator can clear an area pretty quickly and allow searchers on to the grids of that site again.

Recco is far from perfect but continued development and improvements can't hurt.

And yes, if any dorkbeak came in wanting us to look for a lost ski with a Recco diode on it, I would probably remove their pass, refund their money and invite them to ski elsewhere.
post #70 of 83
While I'm not at all familier with the Recco system, after reading this I have a thought. For inbounds areas with potential avy danger, why not put a recco diode in the pass?
post #71 of 83
I very good question indeed.

Lots of passes, both season and day become separated from their owners.

Same reason to not attach them to your skis.

Ask me to locate your ski, the ski that you lost, by the recco chip you attached to the ski in spite of manfacturer warnings against such acts.... whew!

I will probably try to kick you.
post #72 of 83
I expected this as a response. It is too bad, as such an inexpensive item given to all skiers/riders seems like it would help in the event of an in bounds slide. You would know that everyone involved had a reflector, and theoretically be able to complete a rescue based on this fact. I think.
post #73 of 83
Yup, everthing you say is correct. When I first heard about Recco (1986) there we predictions of a chip in every lift pass, no more having to "sweep" the mountain by skiing, just do a Recco sweep and punch out.

Putting the chips in every ski boot used at a ski area would pretty well cover the whole lost chip/ticket issue.

Just that not every boot manfacturer is on board. If Recco were more widely used and accepted then perhaps the aftermarket chipo could be sold readily at the ticket window. As it is right now, retail for the chips is around $ 25.00. Maybe the NSAA could get funding to buy a quantity and make them available much cheaper.

Oh well. just rambling, time to go back to cleaning the garage.
post #74 of 83
It might be interesting to see if RFID tags would work in this application. I just did a quick search, and as of right now the passive tags are anly readable at up to 20 feet, but the technology is rapidly developing. I bring this up because these tags have potential to be sold for mere pennies.

BTW, I would never ask for my gear to be located. If I did, I would deserve the kick. But people are not too bright sometimes...
post #75 of 83
The technology already exsists. I buy Recco diodes for taping to explosives. When the shot goes off, the diode is gone. Should the shot fail to detonate, I can find it. This is primarily Avalauncher round but there has been some talk of putting the diodes in hand charges. When I buy them for this purpose, the cost to me is just under a buck.

2 Bucks added on when you buy a day pass. This would be a one time purchase until you buy new boots, not a great deal of dough, eh?
post #76 of 83
Great informtion for the uninitiated, I had never heard of these and will now look for them in any future purchases.

Was considering a Beacon, you have to consider price and while not spending much time in the backcountry, it only takes once.

I think I may just have OnStar installed in my helmet.
post #77 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
Great informtion for the uninitiated, I had never heard of these and will now look for them in any future purchases.

Was considering a Beacon, you have to consider price and while not spending much time in the backcountry, it only takes once.

I think I may just have OnStar installed in my helmet.
DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT BUYING A TRANCIEVER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SKI OUT OF BOUNDS.

While RECCO is a great system, it is NOT an excuse not to have a tranciever.
post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier View Post
DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT BUYING A TRANCIEVER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SKI OUT OF BOUNDS.

While RECCO is a great system, it is NOT an excuse not to have a tranciever.
Never said out of bounds, said backcountry. And never alone.

If going to an Out of bounds situation it would be a controled operation and could probally rent. Just having to decide between renting once or twice a year (hopefully more) or owning.
I just don't think I have the bucks to Heli ski or cat ski all that many times in a season.
post #79 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
Never said out of bounds, said backcountry. And never alone.

If going to an Out of bounds situation it would be a controled operation and could probally rent. Just having to decide between renting once or twice a year (hopefully more) or owning.
I just don't think I have the bucks to Heli ski or cat ski all that many times in a season.
Out of Bounds and Backcountry should ALWAYS be treated the same. Snow doesnt give a flying F#(& if your 5 feet out side of the rope line to 5 miles. You have no business at all ever skiing outside of a resort with out a tranciever EVER.
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier View Post
Out of Bounds and Backcountry should ALWAYS be treated the same. Snow doesnt give a flying F#(& if your 5 feet out side of the rope line to 5 miles. You have no business at all ever skiing outside of a resort with out a tranciever EVER.
I know it is frustrating not to be able to ski yet but you really should find another off season sport to channel all that hostility.

I agree with all you have said, and am not talking about being outside of a resort, there is backcountry within the boundries. Examples would be the Ridge at Taos, Powder Mountain Powder Country and Cat Skiing in James Canyon. Most of it has little signs that say never ski alone. If the Patrol there were as adamant as you they would have signs that say "Caution tranciever required in this area."

By the way, I ski with a Pharmacist, A Physician who is a former Pro Ski Patrol, is a FEMA Volunteer, and was on the Womens Olympic Ski team and the final member of our group trains and works Avalanche dogs. Not only do I rely on them for their knowledge they also always have some great pain pills for Apree Ski.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I will admit I have been in areas within the boundries of a ski area where I thought I should have a beacon and have been shopping for a beacon, shovel, and probe. But when in a lift served resort I do not always wear a backpack and all that gear would be cumbersome to stuff inside my pants.

Thus we get back to the main topic of this thread which I find very informative, an inexpensive easy to carry method of added safety to all skiers in a resort.
post #81 of 83
Thread Starter 
[quote=Tarzan;572766]I know it is frustrating not to be able to ski yet but you really should find another off season sport to channel all that hostility.

quote]
I dont have any hostility, just zero patience for people skiing in avy terrain with out the necessary gear. Try loosing a few close friends in avy related deaths, then have other deaths affect you work, finally spend a few hours in an avy search. Then tell me that I am hostile.

The simple truth is that most ski areas do not fully acknowledge avy hazards as that would increase there liability. Any time you are skiing un-controlled terrain, you need avy gear. There are no excetions and no excuses.

Finally it doesnt matter if you ski with the best skiers in the world, the brightest docs etc. If you dont have the proper avy gear and some snow sence there is nothing that they will beable to do for you.
post #82 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
Never said out of bounds, said backcountry. And never alone.

If going to an Out of bounds situation it would be a controled operation and could probally rent. Just having to decide between renting once or twice a year (hopefully more) or owning.
I just don't think I have the bucks to Heli ski or cat ski all that many times in a season.
If you're worried about Heli or Cat skiing, both of those options are guided and provide transceivers built into the price.

Of course, that doesn't give you much time to practice with it.
post #83 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
I'd like to upgrade my F1 and F2 to a Barryvox and a Pieps DPS Advanced. Maybe next season.
All this debate about Recco yet nobody noticed a reference to a beacon still in use that the American Avalanche Association declared obsolete over half a decade ago:
http://www.bcaccess.com/home_menu/Ne...alObsolete.php

(Also see second paragraph here: http://www.snowman-jim.org/climbing/...ry-safety.html )

Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
While I don't like the idea of people wearing a tranceiver with which one cannot search - I heavily prefer it over Recco.

For an inbound system I think there should rather be more work to make thoses dog receivers cheaper than to have people woring 10 pieces of Recco crap leaving the rescuers searching for recco tranceivers floation around in the avalanche. Be sure that on most mountains one will first search for beacon signals and then begin searching for Recco reflections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier View Post
This is quite possibly the most uninteligent thing that I have ever heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoflake View Post
extremecarver - You're a troll, right.
So what is wrong with an in-bounds-only skier wearing a Ortovox D1 or Pieps Powder Piep?

More specifically, let’s say I’ve completed my avy beacon presentation ( http://www.jshefftz3.photosite.com/Album2/ ) at an ultra-quickie intro single-day NSP avy course this season. Many of the patrollers in attendance have no interest in backcountry skiing, but just need to fulfill an elective requirement. Let’s say a patroller wants to be safe while on western resort trips, but doesn’t want to pay for a real beacon even on proform and/or bother learning how to use one. Plus any real beacon is more bulky to wear around all day than a transmit-only beacon. But the patroller feels competent enough to remember to put batteries into a transmit-only beacon, turn it on each ski day, and turn it off if near a rescue operation. The cost of a transmit-only beacon is not much more than the several Recco tags that are necessary to ensure a rescue (one can be insufficient), plus a beacon-based rescue is likely to be much faster than a Recco rescue, even in-bounds.
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