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Explain cone baskets? - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Color of the cones is absolutley critical and most racers miss that point totally. Red, period.
post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Color of the cones is absolutley critical and most racers miss that point totally. Red, period.
Red? I heard fluorescent yellow is faster...
post #33 of 55
Science in action:

SG poles with red cones were placed stationary on the snow. Two measuring instruments were used to quantify the findings.

The results:

Red Cones

K-Band radar... Poles, while static (sitting on the snow) gave a reading of 3 miles per hour.

GPS .... Poles while sitting static indicated a reading of 96.2 miles per hour.

Black Cones

K-Band radar ... Poles while static , were indeed static ... no reading ie "0".

GPS ... Poles while sitting static read between 52.9 and 78.7 miles per hour.

This proves that red cones are faster off the shelf and on the snow.

Both sets of poles registered the same speed while in transit to the test site in my roof carrier and avraged 70+ mph during interstate transit. The Volvo with the speed control engaged is believed to be be the reason for this "variable" that was noted during testing.

The poles with yellow cones were stolen prior to the test, this may indicate that they are in some ways capable of speed with or without the assistance of the testers.
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by D(C)
Red? I heard fluorescent yellow is faster...
Yes, that's true. Bode Miller is reputed to have used yellow cones at Åre,Sweden recently where he won the SG and was 2nd in the Downhill.
During the Olympics he and Daron Rahlves were forced to use red cones. Some guy in a baseball cap with the word "Österreich" printed on it was seen slinking off with Team USA's yellow cone poles shortly before the speed events. At least, that's what I heard.
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
As for why cones are on "speed" poles, I always thought it was aerodynamics, but maybe it's aerodynamics and gate-hitting. Or maybe it's all just marketing ....

I suspect this thread now represents the most written consideration given to the issue of cone baskets in industry history.
Yes, this is the most consideration ever given this "issue". The idea that the aerodynamics would be anything more than trivial is just insane...in the same way Aerospeed topsheets are a huge joke.

The baskets are in (really) turbulent flow. The baskets spend little time pointed directly into flow. The frontal area of the baskets is tiny compared to the skier, the skiers helmet, the pole itself, the ski tip, the bindings, etc.

I'm positive that the flat plate basket will actually be "more aerodynamic" than the cone if the cone is perpendicular to the flow. I'm pretty sure neither makes a difference worth even .01 second on a typical length course, although such a claim requires way more thought than this "issue" desires.

Common sense check: Do manufacturers at the highest levels of racing make any attempt at all to design "aero" boots or "aero" bindings? I haven't seen such an attempt.

As to the gate issue Greg brought up, it is a very real and very annoying thing. Some junior racers replace disk baskets a dozen times a year. If they switch to cones, it is my experience that the problem abates.

The times when I've lost a basket by dragging the pole along a GS gate (usually when low and late, or in a tuck) I haven't "felt" the drag, but showed up at the bottom of the course sans basket. I've also broken two poles in GS courses, all of them ones I'd used in SL courses for a good long time and likely had fatigued. On those occassions I didn't "notice" something until past the next gate and wondering where my "feeler" was starting the next turn.
post #36 of 55
Actually some buckles on boots and many bindings claim aerodynamic superiority!
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Science in action:

SG poles with red cones were placed stationary on the snow. Two measuring instruments were used to quantify the findings.

The results:

Red Cones

K-Band radar... Poles, while static (sitting on the snow) gave a reading of 3 miles per hour.

GPS .... Poles while sitting static indicated a reading of 96.2 miles per hour.

Black Cones

K-Band radar ... Poles while static , were indeed static ... no reading ie "0".

GPS ... Poles while sitting static read between 52.9 and 78.7 miles per hour.

This proves that red cones are faster off the shelf and on the snow.

Both sets of poles registered the same speed while in transit to the test site in my roof carrier and avraged 70+ mph during interstate transit. The Volvo with the speed control engaged is believed to be be the reason for this "variable" that was noted during testing.

The poles with yellow cones were stolen prior to the test, this may indicate that they are in some ways capable of speed with or without the assistance of the testers.
This isn't even a valid test.... No one uses K band radar for this type of testing anymore. What would each speed be using Ka band? I suspect that black would be fastest.
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Actually some buckles on boots and many bindings claim aerodynamic superiority!
I'm talking about honest, actual design work. Not marketing. I know this distinction is difficult for some to understand. :
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Actually some buckles on boots and many bindings claim aerodynamic superiority!
Lange calls its race buckles "Aero Micro," for example. Just about every race boot maker includes some references to its buckles being flat or low profile or whatever. Tyrolia (Fischer/Elan) calls their racing toe design "Aero toe." Most all binding toepieces (certainly Marker and the old-style Atomic race bindings) are in a housing that's designed at least to look aerodynamic.

Also: speed skiers use cone baskets, even though they don't even pass gates.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
...are in a housing that's designed at least to look aerodynamic.
And again, I'm not talking about how something looks. I'm talking about things actually designed (with priority) to be aerodynamic. I can think of numerous ways off the top of my head to make any of the bindings you mentioned less draggy. None of this matters, because its largely a moot point.
Quote:
Also: speed skiers use cone baskets, even though they don't even pass gates.
Speed skiers ski at speeds that more than double the average speed on a downhill course. They are always in a good aero tuck, and their poles are always as perpendicular to the flow as possible.

Their boots don't have buckles on the front.

Their bindings aren't modified because they must be unmodified series production with no modifications for aerodynamics, according to my translation of a dialect of Foreignese I don't know. My girlfriend agrees with my translation, as she does speak that type of foreign.

As to the baskets:

Quote:
Originally Posted by translated from foreign
The obligatory discs must have a diameter ranging between 3 and 5 cm, a height not exceeding 10cm and should not be placed at more 5cm of the lower point of the stick.
Otherwise, I guarantee you'd see either no baskets, or more aerodynamic ones.

Some of these skiers indeed do expend the effort to create baskets better than the standard cones within these parameters. Such as this photo from the www.speedski.com site:



http://www.swiss-kl.ch/DocsOfficiels/Reglement.pdf

If it was to make a difference, any of the major manufacturers could quite easily develop less draggy baskets, bindings, boots. They don't: because its a trite thing to worry about in the traditional skiing disciplines.
post #41 of 55
skiingman, you're no fun at all!
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
Lange calls its race buckles "Aero Micro," for example. Just about every race boot maker includes some references to its buckles being flat or low profile or whatever. Tyrolia (Fischer/Elan) calls their racing toe design "Aero toe." Most all binding toepieces (certainly Marker and the old-style Atomic race bindings) are in a housing that's designed at least to look aerodynamic.

Also: speed skiers use cone baskets, even though they don't even pass gates.
Thank you SJ!
post #43 of 55
Mine are bright yellow (Leki) and clearly they cannot be the fastest based on on-the-hill personal testing... I am certainly not saying they aren't fast, but they didn't make ME faster... Maybe I should try red...
Later
GREG
post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
skiingman, you're no fun at all!
Nor does he speak to the point.

But that's enough said on the topic (at least ....)
post #45 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
Nor does he speak to the point.
Yet I do. The point being that cone baskets largely exist because of what Greg is talking about, an actual proven purpose.
post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
Mine are bright yellow (Leki) and clearly they cannot be the fastest based on on-the-hill personal testing... I am certainly not saying they aren't fast, but they didn't make ME faster... Maybe I should try red...
Later
GREG
Benni Raich uses yellow Leki cone poles and look what they did for him.
post #47 of 55
My baskets are black, my ferrules are bright pink, and my poles are flourescent yellow. The grips are pink to match the ferrules.

Oddly, I don't seem to have a problem with pole theft.
post #48 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
Lange calls its race buckles "Aero Micro," for example. Just about every race boot maker includes some references to its buckles being flat or low profile or whatever. Tyrolia (Fischer/Elan) calls their racing toe design "Aero toe." Most all binding toepieces (certainly Marker and the old-style Atomic race bindings) are in a housing that's designed at least to look aerodynamic.
IIRC, it was BigE who noticed that not one company has taken Boot Gloves and screen-printed them in their trademark colours.
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Science in action:

SG poles with red cones were placed stationary on the snow. Two measuring instruments were used to quantify the findings.

The results:

Red Cones

K-Band radar... Poles, while static (sitting on the snow) gave a reading of 3 miles per hour.

GPS .... Poles while sitting static indicated a reading of 96.2 miles per hour.

Black Cones

K-Band radar ... Poles while static , were indeed static ... no reading ie "0".

GPS ... Poles while sitting static read between 52.9 and 78.7 miles per hour.

This proves that red cones are faster off the shelf and on the snow.

Both sets of poles registered the same speed while in transit to the test site in my roof carrier and avraged 70+ mph during interstate transit. The Volvo with the speed control engaged is believed to be be the reason for this "variable" that was noted during testing.

The poles with yellow cones were stolen prior to the test, this may indicate that they are in some ways capable of speed with or without the assistance of the testers.
Yuki,
You failed to take temperature into account!

Everybody knows that the black ones will heat up more on a sunny day, causing a thermal boundary layer, and as the density of air depends on the temperature, a temperature gradient will induce a density gradient in the air next to the basket. The effects of density gradients on turbulence dampening are well known in meteorology. Thus affecting the air resistance and speeds attained.
post #50 of 55
: Damned, and I thought I had it nailed.

OK .... what do you do if there is an inversion? .. :
post #51 of 55
Speed skiing has minimum basket requirements...I believe 3cm diameter which is not much more that some tape around the end of the pole.

If everyone is forced to have baskets, even small ones, it makes the playing field more level and thus skill comes into play. If there were no rules or standardization for equipment such as basket width, ski length, helmet size etc. then pretty soon anarchy would pervail and society, as we currently know it, would cease to exist.
post #52 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by goriders
Speed skiing has minimum basket requirements...I believe 3cm diameter which is not much more that some tape around the end of the pole.

If everyone is forced to have baskets, even small ones, it makes the playing field more level and thus skill comes into play. If there were no rules or standardization for equipment such as basket width, ski length, helmet size etc. then pretty soon anarchy would pervail and society, as we currently know it, would cease to exist.
Haha, yes.

And I posted a translation of the speedski rules re: baskets a little bit earlier in this thread. Good memory on the 3cm.
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
I posted a translation of the speedski rules re: baskets a little bit earlier in this thread. Good memory on the 3cm.
Incidentally, you know the FIS does publish all of its regulation in English, so you don't need to translate it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIS Regulation
Baskets or ‘rings’ are obligatory, must be at least 3cm in diameter, between 5 and 10 cm long, and must be placed no more than 5cm from the lower end of the pole with the largest diameter at the lowest part.
post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
Incidentally, you know the FIS does publish all of its regulation in English, so you don't need to translate it:
GAH



If I had known FIS published that, it would have been helpful. Google search brought up the swiss speedski organization first.

Reading them in english=much easier. Apparently you aren't allowed to swing your poles at the finish! That could be scary at 150mph...
post #55 of 55
Of course the aero advantge is minimal, but they time to .01 seconds and we had a three way tie in the WC this year. I'm sure that any advantage however minimal would be welcomed in that situation.
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