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Boots and the Back Seat - Page 2

post #31 of 47
If your boots are too upright you cannot flex deep enough withour loosing your balance. Just try this trick at home (taken from Ron LeMaster's book, BTW): put on your ski boots, stand on a level floor and try to flex your legs until you loose balance. Now put a book or a thick magazine under your boot toes. Repeat, notice how much earlier you start loosing balance... Repeat with placing the book under your heels. Too upright stance limits your vertical range of motion; too much forward lean puts too much of your weight over the ski tips. LeMaster says that you should have enough forward lean to make you flex your legs to make your hips parallel to the ground (with hands extended forward), but not too much more. More upright stance achieved by removing spoilers in your boots may help modern technique skiing, but it severely limits your ability to ski bumps and other terrain requiring flexion/extension movements.
post #32 of 47
Simon, I too can highly recommend Bud Heishman as he did the balancing & alignment work on my boots at the Epicski Academy in Feb.

I had a very similar problem to yourself & the solution for me was to reduce the forward lean on my boots & to raise my toes by having thicker toe pieces attached to the soles of my boots. The top surface of the binding engagement area on the boots was then routed down to the correct thickness for the bindings. I also had the soles of my boots planed slighty to give correct alignment. The results were superb so it was $150 very well spent.

Don't forget to take your skis with you as Bud will want to check your forward lean whilst your standing in the bindings as, as dchan has stated, different manufacturers bindings have different delta angles.

I also have b5's & have recently bought M:EX's & I'm sure that one of the major factors that makes it very easy for me to switch skis is that they both have the same binding position & delta angle set-up. I'm in the market for some fat skis (90mm+) for which I already bought Rossi bindings so I'm going to ensure that when I mount them that I shim up the toe bindings to match the Neox's angles.
post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn
More upright stance achieved by removing spoilers in your boots may help modern technique skiing, but it severely limits your ability to ski bumps and other terrain requiring flexion/extension movements.
I'm not sure I follow this part. A more upright stance created by removing the spoilers should open your ankle more and thus allow you more range of motion to flex a boot. If your limiting factor is a tight achilles or tight calf/hamstring, then opening the ankle joint will allow a skier to flex more easily not limit your ability to flex a boot. If you don't have the ability to dorsiflex or close your ankle, then a toe lift would amplify a lack of ankle flexion.

DC
post #34 of 47
The idea is that if you do not have enough forward lean in your boots, you will get your center of mass too far back when you flex deep in bumps. What's important in my opinion is to get proper alignment between the body center of mass and the boot soles. If you get your center of mass too far behind, you are effectively in the back seat and you will loose your balance. In other words, not enough forward lean gives you less flexion/extension range without loosing a neutral stance. Too much forward lean is also detrimental for the same reasons. I really like the exercise I described in my previous post, it makes you understand the biomechanics of skiing and forward lean consequence a little bit better.
post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn
The idea is that if you do not have enough forward lean in your boots, you will get your center of mass too far back when you flex deep in bumps. What's important in my opinion is to get proper alignment between the body center of mass and the boot soles. If you get your center of mass too far behind, you are effectively in the back seat and you will loose your balance. In other words, not enough forward lean gives you less flexion/extension range without loosing a neutral stance. Too much forward lean is also detrimental for the same reasons. I really like the exercise I described in my previous post, it makes you understand the biomechanics of skiing and forward lean consequence a little bit better.
Alex has a handle on this. Here is a link to a thread on RealSkier's discussing fore/aft alignment. Read the opening posts, then you can skip to ydnar's post on his systematic method of checking fore/aft balance. This will probably allow you to assess yourself "in the comfort of your own home." Let us know if this helps. LewBob

http://realskiers.com/pmtsforum/view...=asc&start =0
post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
I'm not sure I follow this part. A more upright stance created by removing the spoilers should open your ankle more and thus allow you more range of motion to flex a boot. If your limiting factor is a tight achilles or tight calf/hamstring, then opening the ankle joint will allow a skier to flex more easily not limit your ability to flex a boot. If you don't have the ability to dorsiflex or close your ankle, then a toe lift would amplify a lack of ankle flexion.

DC
dcahn, A more upright stance moves your center of mass to the rear when you flex. Raising the heel within the boot moves balance forward while allowing more dorsiflexion. Lift under the binding heel gives more forward lean, weight and weight tilted forward without reducing dorsiflexion. With a skinny calf a spoiler is just filling in for meat that the skier doesn't have on his leg.

I don't think the issue here is limited dorsiflexion, but CM that is to the rear and a boot that won't flex well. Net result is skier fighting to get weight forward. Of course I could be wrong, but this is what I get from the description. Go back to "The Athletic Skier" and I believe you will find this is what Warren describes happening to many skiers. How to go about solving the problem is probably best left to a very good boot-fitter, but it is easy enough to experiment with trail maps behind the cuff or a little wedge under the boot liner's heel. LewBob
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewBob
dcahn, A more upright stance moves your center of mass to the rear when you flex. Raising the heel within the boot moves balance forward while allowing more dorsiflexion. Lift under the binding heel gives more forward lean, weight and weight tilted forward without reducing dorsiflexion. With a skinny calf a spoiler is just filling in for meat that the skier doesn't have on his leg.

I don't think the issue here is limited dorsiflexion, but CM that is to the rear and a boot that won't flex well. Net result is skier fighting to get weight forward. Of course I could be wrong, but this is what I get from the description. Go back to "The Athletic Skier" and I believe you will find this is what Warren describes happening to many skiers. How to go about solving the problem is probably best left to a very good boot-fitter, but it is easy enough to experiment with trail maps behind the cuff or a little wedge under the boot liner's heel. LewBob
The absolute statements you make here are very misleading.

Fore/AFT balance point is a very indivdual issue affected by many factors,including but not limited to dorseflexion, femur and tibia length, lwoer leg circumference and shap(huge impact) strength, technique, body type, ski flex and sidecut shape, binding mounting position, binding delta, zeppa angle, forward lean& boot flex.

HH on the thread you referred to seems to completely contradict what you are saying here. I think Harald is pretty right on in his comments on that thread!

I have watched the boot fitter I use analyze many skiers fore/aft alignment. None have had their fore/aft alignment improved with raising their heel, 2 were already pretty relaxed and centered, the rest neede their toes raised.

Most boots still have too much ramp 7 forward lean, add the binding ramp to that and you are skiing on your toes which makes you stick your butt out, break at the waist and put your hips behind your feet to compensate.

keep in mind Wtherall's book was written before the days of shorter, wider very shapely skis. fore/aft alignment needs have changed drastically since then.
post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn
If your boots are too upright you cannot flex deep enough withour loosing your balance. Just try this trick at home (taken from Ron LeMaster's book, BTW): put on your ski boots, stand on a level floor and try to flex your legs until you loose balance. Now put a book or a thick magazine under your boot toes. Repeat, notice how much earlier you start loosing balance... Repeat with placing the book under your heels. Too upright stance limits your vertical range of motion; too much forward lean puts too much of your weight over the ski tips. LeMaster says that you should have enough forward lean to make you flex your legs to make your hips parallel to the ground (with hands extended forward), but not too much more. More upright stance achieved by removing spoilers in your boots may help modern technique skiing, but it severely limits your ability to ski bumps and other terrain requiring flexion/extension movements.
You msut do this on your boots and skis because it takes the ramp angle of your bindings out of the equation
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon
Simon, I too can highly recommend Bud Heishman as he did the balancing & alignment work on my boots at the Epicski Academy in Feb.

I had a very similar problem to yourself & the solution for me was to reduce the forward lean on my boots & to raise my toes by having thicker toe pieces attached to the soles of my boots. The top surface of the binding engagement area on the boots was then routed down to the correct thickness for the bindings. I also had the soles of my boots planed slighty to give correct alignment. The results were superb so it was $150 very well spent.

Don't forget to take your skis with you as Bud will want to check your forward lean whilst your standing in the bindings as, as dchan has stated, different manufacturers bindings have different delta angles.

I also have b5's & have recently bought M:EX's & I'm sure that one of the major factors that makes it very easy for me to switch skis is that they both have the same binding position & delta angle set-up. I'm in the market for some fat skis (90mm+) for which I already bought Rossi bindings so I'm going to ensure that when I mount them that I shim up the toe bindings to match the Neox's angles.
Makes sense to me!!!!! Also, B5's have very little ramp angle, ski. plate and bindings is 2mm. 52mm at heel, 50mm toe. I am on the smae setup plus the Head RD 96 which has some of the least forward lean and ramp of any plug out there. I never feel like I am back.
post #40 of 47
Thread Starter 

Thanks for your help folks

Due to being rather pushed for time over the weekend, I ended up going to see the guys at "Elite Feet" who happen to be at the far end of the Squaw Valley lift system, and are on the Epic recommended list. We didn't do a full alignment, but put heel lifts under the linings at the backs of the boot, and raised the height adjustment cuff at the back. This has made a big difference. I can get my butt down to the level of my knees without hitting the backs of my boots now, as Ron LeMaster suggests. Also, it's much easier to flex the fronts of the boots. Previously my heel was too low relative to me toes for my feet to relax, and my ankle was similarly too low.
post #41 of 47
Oh, I understand the whole balancing issue. I've been looking at balancing and fitting for many years now. I've been watching and learning from the best of them. Bud, Greg Hoffman, Jim at starthaus Bob Gleason, etc..
The absolute

"but it severely limits your ability to ski bumps and other terrain requiring flexion/extension movements."

is the part I have to disagree with. This will all depend on many factors and telling someone that if they do xyz, it will "severely limit" what they can do without actually seeing them ski or try some of these is the part I don't follow.

By raising the heel inside the boot under the lining, It sounds like the guys at elite feet might have noticed Simon was having a flexion limitation. I wonder if they did a windlass test on Simon or flexion check..

This will not change the forward lean for Simon but it will open his ankle so that he will hopefully be able to flex into the boot more freely. This would then allow him to move his knees farther forward as he flexes the his ankle and hopefully get him more balanced.

If you had just raised the heel of the whole boot and changed the forward lean and ramp angle, and the limiting factor was your ablility to flex the boot, then raising the heel would have made it worse.

As noted before, Everyone is different.

DC
post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewBob
dcahn, A more upright stance moves your center of mass to the rear when you flex. Raising the heel within the boot moves balance forward while allowing more dorsiflexion. Lift under the binding heel gives more forward lean, weight and weight tilted forward without reducing dorsiflexion. With a skinny calf a spoiler is just filling in for meat that the skier doesn't have on his leg.

I don't think the issue here is limited dorsiflexion, but CM that is to the rear and a boot that won't flex well. Net result is skier fighting to get weight forward. Of course I could be wrong, but this is what I get from the description. Go back to "The Athletic Skier" and I believe you will find this is what Warren describes happening to many skiers. How to go about solving the problem is probably best left to a very good boot-fitter, but it is easy enough to experiment with trail maps behind the cuff or a little wedge under the boot liner's heel. LewBob
The first part of your comment is only true if the skier is unable to dorsiflex and flex the boot.

Too many factors in this to make a determination It's not a fitter you need but a fitter that knows stance, and alignment as well.

I've been to Masterfit U and have worked with many skiers and boot fitters /balancers and have a very good understanding of what goes on. Enough to know that Simon needs to be evaluated rather than just telling him one thing or another.

The fact that Simon's first comment was that he switched skis and now has a fore/aft balance issue tells me that either the mounting position caused a problem or ramp angle caused the problem. The fix? I would need to see him ski.

DC.
post #43 of 47
Thread Starter 
Looking at the bindings on my new and old skis, I reckon the binding ramp angle had a lot to with the suddent senstation of being in the back seat. The cheap-ass bindings on my B2s have a lot of ramp angle. But now I have heel lifts in the boots I feel much more balanced both in fast groomer skiing and over bumps than I ever did before. I was never entirely happy with the fit of the boots before - they never felt quite "right", but the shop that sold them to me could never figure out the problem. It's now apparent to me that prior to the heel lifts my ankle and lower leg weren't lined up properly with the boot cuff. My ankle was too far back, my toes too high, and my lower leg too far forward, hence the sense of straining to make the (very soft) boot flex. I no longer feel I need to curl my toes up to ski - yippee !

On the subject of getting a full alignment done - I agree, I just didn't have the time this weekend. I'll either make time to go and see Bob Heishman in Reno, or I'm thinking of doing an ESA or PMTS camp next year and will get it done then.
post #44 of 47
To those that are quoting Ron Lemaster... Which book (of the 2 on Amazon) of Ron LeMasters are you discussing and would you recommend? I see the titles: The Skier's Edge and The Essential Guide to Skiing (201 things every skier must know) as his newest book. So should I get both or which one to start with?
post #45 of 47

Boots

#1 Might be the motor not the boot

#2 Also, Bootwerks Cosmos, Tahoe City
post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
The first part of your comment is only true if the skier is unable to dorsiflex and flex the boot.

Too many factors in this to make a determination It's not a fitter you need but a fitter that knows stance, and alignment as well.

I've been to Masterfit U and have worked with many skiers and boot fitters /balancers and have a very good understanding of what goes on. Enough to know that Simon needs to be evaluated rather than just telling him one thing or another.

The fact that Simon's first comment was that he switched skis and now has a fore/aft balance issue tells me that either the mounting position caused a problem or ramp angle caused the problem. The fix? I would need to see him ski.

DC.
I meant relative to a less upright stance in the same boot. I don't want to argue this because you are absolutely right that a boot fitter that knows stance is the best solution and that all of us have different stances.

And Atomicman, I was explaining the effects of different changes, not telling Simon what is right for him. Most people I read about today seem to be better in the more upright boots and setups with less ramp. But I can tell that some of us need the opposite.

Anyway, I am glad that Simon has found a solution. I should have thought of the ramp difference in the bindings. I remember skiing demo skis with Marker M46's with the movable toe. They had no ramp, or even a negative ramp and I couldn't get balanced on the skis: way in the backseat. LewBob
post #47 of 47
This thread is a bit technical for me but here is some genuine recreational skier experience. Until this season, I skied on Atomic skis & bindings. This year, I switched to Rossi skis & bindings. The skis are reckoned to be similar (I won't say what they are because this isn't an argument about their relative merits). Half way through the second day on the Rossis my legs (mainly the top of the calf muscles) were screaming, I couldn't hold an edge and the rest of the week was an endurance test. I then bought some new Atomic skis+bindings and noticed that the Rossi bindings were about 2cm further forward and rear of the Rossi bindings was about 0.8cm higher than the front compared to the Atomics (I also have a short boot length (285mm)). The week skiing on the new Atomics was superb – great edge control, no pain, lots of enjoyment. I'm convinced that the difference in the skiing was due to the ramp angle (and maybe the binding position). I am not arguing that one is better than the other but I know which works for me - much to my surprise because I hadn't thought that it would have made that much of a difference.
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