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Side bevel from 1or2 to 3, review

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Skied my allstars for a few runs yesterday at Killington. Conditions were very hard snow atfer a rain and pure ice. My skis were tunes 2 ski days before so the edge was good. But conditions were so bad I skidded all over the mountain.
We then left the mountain went to a local ski shop where I talked to on of the techs. I had the bevel on my all stars changed to a 3 side for a 1-2 there are from differing opinions on what volkl uses(yes I know they claim a 2 but many,many ski techs I've talked to insist they use a 1). Also made sure they didn't detune the tips.
Back on the hill 1 hour later.
First difference I found was it was much harder to skid a turn on flat slow trails. There was a little more egde grip on the ice/rain hardened snow but she still slid some. Not a drastic difference, but noticeable. Next was the only relatively soft part of the mountain with small moguls. This is where I noticed the fully tuned tips go to work. Much more quickness and precision in short turns and moguls. No sliding going on at all.

Conclusion: The bevel change and not detuning the tips made for slightly more edge grip and a much quicker turn, but left them harder to skid and probably a little less versitile.
post #2 of 28
What you stated is mostly correct, but don't be led astray on the skidding observation. The skidding issue is directly related to the BASE edge bevel (and the detunining of tips/tails a bit) not the side edge bevel. I have been through this myself (from my own experimentation) and I'm amazed at how even a 0.5 degree base edge bevel change can be so dramatic. I've found that I like a 1 degree base bevel as a nice compromise between a 2.0 degree (skis are very easy to pivot and turns can be done like "spreading butter") and a 0.5 degree (requires much precision in your skiing - difficult to relax on).
post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
What you stated is mostly correct, but don't be led astray on the skidding observation. The skidding issue is directly related to the BASE edge bevel (and the detunining of tips/tails a bit) not the side edge bevel. I have been through this myself (from my own experimentation) and I'm amazed at how even a 0.5 degree base edge bevel change can be so dramatic. I've found that I like a 1 degree base bevel as a nice compromise between a 2.0 degree (skis are very easy to pivot and turns can be done like "spreading butter") and a 0.5 degree (requires much precision in your skiing - difficult to relax on).
thanks for posting exactly what i was going to say. although 2 degrees is very extreme and would be very "Loose' You would need very extreme edge angle and, inclination, angulation to get a 2 up on edge. if one was a fairly upright skier 9not much inclination) the ski would slide all over the place with very limited edge hold on hard snow.

A point .7 (SVST makes a .7 base beveler) is a very good compromise between .5 & 1.0.
post #4 of 28

Base edge

I just got a pair of Rossi 9S oversize on ebay. They are in great condition, but they have a 2 degree base edge. Could hardly believe it when I measured it. They are for my J2 racer son as a practice ski - he skis on .5 bases now for slalom and 1 for GS. Should I just get them stone ground flat now and put a .5 edge on them or let him try them next fall first? I'm thinking that it would just be a waste of time to wait.
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by c1er
I just got a pair of Rossi 9S oversize on ebay. They are in great condition, but they have a 2 degree base edge. Could hardly believe it when I measured it. They are for my J2 racer son as a practice ski - he skis on .5 bases now for slalom and 1 for GS. Should I just get them stone ground flat now and put a .5 edge on them or let him try them next fall first? I'm thinking that it would just be a waste of time to wait.
Definitely go for the stone grind. No point in skiing them the way they are, but I must ask how you determined the current base bevel angle (and yes this is a "loaded" question ).
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
thanks for posting exactly what i was going to say. although 2 degrees is very extreme and would be very "Loose' You would need very extreme edge angle and, inclination, angulation to get a 2 up on edge. if one was a fairly upright skier 9not much inclination) the ski would slide all over the place with very limited edge hold on hard snow.

A point .7 (SVST makes a .7 base beveler) is a very good compromise between .5 & 1.0.
Ya know I didn't realize that there were .7 degree base bevel tools available. Now you've got me - the last thing I need is another tuning tool, but I'm incredibly intrigued by the idea of .7 since .5 wasn't enough bevel for my recreational needs, but at times 1.0 is too much.

Guess there will be a new tool joining my "toy" box - thanks.
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
Ya know I didn't realize that there were .7 degree base bevel tools available...
I just find this so hard to believe
post #8 of 28
How do you measure the base edge bevel? Is there a tool?

I've had a base grind on two pairs of skis and I'm sure they've put more than 1* on them.:
post #9 of 28

Base Edge

I marked a 60 mm distance on my true bar, I place one mark of the true bar on the metal edge and angle the true bar to match the angle of the edge. If you can get your eyeball right down to the ski edge it is fairly easy to do. I have a shim that is exactly the height off the ski at the other mark (close to the opposite edge) if the angle is 1 degree (thanks to my grandfather's machinist tool box). With a little practice it appears fairly accurate.

The other way is to magic marker the base edge and use a fine diamond stone on my .5 or 1 degree guide, and see if it cleans off the outer or inner edge first, but in this case the 1 degree guide isn't hitting the metal edge at all.
post #10 of 28
c1er - you've clearly passed the test of my "loaded" question. I just wanted to be sure you were getting an accurate read. I also use both methods you listed (actually A-man gave us the first really detailed explanation of how to use the 60mm scribe mark method).
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
Ya know I didn't realize that there were .7 degree base bevel tools available. Now you've got me - the last thing I need is another tuning tool, but I'm incredibly intrigued by the idea of .7 since .5 wasn't enough bevel for my recreational needs, but at times 1.0 is too much.

Guess there will be a new tool joining my "toy" box - thanks.
There ya go, I have one,

TRY IT YOU'LL LIKE IT!
post #12 of 28

Edge

Part of the post ski season withdrawal is not being able to spend evenings tuning skis, it gets pretty addictive. Unfortunately my summer sport, whitewater boating, has gone over to plastic boats which are pretty maintenance free. Used to spend my summer evenings patching my fiberglass boats after a weekend of bashing rocks.
post #13 of 28
I like Doug Coombs' take on beveling...

http://www.jacksonholevlog.com/2006/...d-his-q-and-p/
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc gledhill
How do you measure the base edge bevel? Is there a tool? I've had a base grind on two pairs of skis and I'm sure they've put more than 1* on them.:
I've used the marker pen method as describerd by c1er.

Who did the base grind, was it EB's? I told EB's that I wanted a grind only, without any edge work at all & they told me some bollox about they couldn't offer a grind only & that they had to do the edges as well.

I went to Wardy at S&R Sheffield for a grind only. Great job for £5 while I waited.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by John J
I like Doug Coombs' take on beveling...

http://www.jacksonholevlog.com/2006/...d-his-q-and-p/
John if you believe this I have a couple of floating bridges to sell you here in Seattle!
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
John if you believe this I have a couple of floating bridges to sell you here in Seattle!
But for where and how Doug skied, it was probably fine.
post #17 of 28
Atomicman, actually I do believe it, with the message
being to Get Out and Ski!

What?
post #18 of 28
Atomicman, actually I do believe it, with the message
being to Get Out and Ski!

What? you
post #19 of 28
Atomicman, actually I do believe it, with the message
being to Get Out and Ski!

What? you have
post #20 of 28
Atomicman, actually I do believe it, with the message
being to Get Out and Ski!

What? you have some surplus pontoon bridges?
post #21 of 28
John J, I heard ya the 1st time!
post #22 of 28
Sorry about that.
Aren't you glad I don't have my finger
on "The Button"?
post #23 of 28
Yes!
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1
But for where and how Doug skied, it was probably fine.
I don't know, did you see the "blades" on that file. It would take off half the edge and leave what was left scalloped. LewBob
post #25 of 28
LewBob, it is a "pansar" or curved tooth file.
It is muy aggressive, but it would not leave a
scalloped edge.
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by John J
LewBob, it is a "pansar" or curved tooth file.
It is muy aggressive, but it would not leave a
scalloped edge.
That's good to know. It looked kind of scary to me :, but I suppose it would make things quick if you have a lot of rock damage. One thing I like about my Volants is that they have lots of edge to work with. I do side filing between grinds when things get rocky, so I related to his approach. Lew
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewBob
That's good to know. It looked kind of scary to me :, but I suppose it would make things quick if you have a lot of rock damage.
LewBob:

Pansar is a great tool for removing a lot of material quickly. It doesn't leave any rougher an edge than any other file when used correctly. (All files leave striations that require smoothing and polishing via your stones of choice.)
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1
LewBob:

Pansar is a great tool for removing a lot of material quickly. It doesn't leave any rougher an edge than any other file when used correctly. (All files leave striations that require smoothing and polishing via your stones of choice.)
Coombs did no smoothing or polishing. Of course the are he worked on looked like just under foot. Not as critical as the tip or tail!
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Side bevel from 1or2 to 3, review