EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › are we all talking about the same sport?!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

are we all talking about the same sport?! - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
.I have no credentials except that I can get down a hill ok. There are some basic truths that apply but my balance and ski management change drastically depending on many factors. I am not a one trick pony, and basically agree with CSOcean10
And I agree with you, but the issue is whether or not the best skiers "look" like they've changed their balance and ski management - they don't. Trust me on this - I skied with Uncle Louie today (ex-Breck and Copper instructor). We hit all kinds of different terrain and conditions, but he looked dynamic and smooth through all of it - and that's the key - he looked the same - his "style" didn't change. Compare that to the skier that looks great on groomers, but falls apart on a chopped up black. I believe that was Shaw's point. The best skiers can maintain the same turn pace, high edge angles, and general "quietness" in their skiing. One of the most amazing demonstrations of this was seen over and over at ESA. The "coaches" I skied with were all able to completely slow down their movements while skiing the most difficult lines down double-blacks. If you had recorded them and then sped up the playback they would look like they do when they're just free skiing - always in control while fully completing their turns and releasing smoothly between every one.
post #32 of 46
Sorry to disagree with half of you folks...but hey...I'm agreeing with the other half. :-)

Whomever said that one style fits all snow conditions, I can't agree with. You can sorta make one technique work in many conditions by virtue of the fact that you have good balance and athleticism. This is not such a bad thing to be able to take your singular way of guiding your skis and make it work in any situation, kudos to you. Actually, its a GREAT thing. BIG kudos to you.

But in my view it is not top shelf skiing. Top shelf skiing means skiing a groomed run like a racer, skiing a bump run like a freestyler, skiing powder like a powder-8 winner, etc.. The best in the world all use technique which is most definitely specialized for that particular type of skiing. A truly top shelf skier would hit a groomer making clean fast arcs and looking a lot like a WC racer, would jump into some bumps and swivel his hips down through like Mosely, hit a huge steep face like Coombes, handle deep pow another way, even grab nasty big air when the opportunities present themselves and make everyone drop their jaw. Ok, that last one I'll leave for the "young" top shelf skiers. :-)

Are there similarities between all these conditions and techniques? Absolutely. Are certain aspects of a turn applicable everywhere? Sure. They aren't COMPLETELY different. But there most definitely are differences and if you know what to look for you will see them as stylistic changes. Feet closer together sometimes, more or less flexion and extension, more or less pivoting, more or less angulation, more or less anticipation, more or less pole planting, etc...etc...etc... The top shelf skier adapts many factors to the conditions to ski at the highest level of performance in those conditions.

And if you want a one-size-fits-all approach to skiing all the conditions you can get what many would consider plenty good enough performance to be impressive. But mostly what I think you would be demonstrating is A) extremely good proficiency at YOUR way of skiing and B) great athleticism...neither of which are bad things. But truly top shelf skiing means adapting a bit to the terrain and conditions.

I once saw a video of Bode Miller in some bumps and he looked gawd awful. Obviously, his style of skiing is very race oriented and he does not know how to adapt for bumps.

wait.. was I condenscending again? Nothing personal I promise...
post #33 of 46
A good skiier might LOOK like they aren't changing stuff as the terrain and snow changes, but they are! Tactics and skills blending is key. Having the skills to blend, and the knowledge to use tactics is what they do.

Their own ski "style" is theirs, and their skill enables them to be their style no matter what the mountain throws at them.
post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Sorry to disagree with half of you folks...but hey...I'm agreeing with the other half. :-)

Whomever said that one style fits all snow conditions, I can't agree with. You can sorta make one technique work in many conditions by virtue of the fact that you have good balance and athleticism. This is not such a bad thing to be able to take your singular way of guiding your skis and make it work in any situation, kudos to you. Actually, its a GREAT thing. BIG kudos to you.

But in my view it is not top shelf skiing. Top shelf skiing means skiing a groomed run like a racer, skiing a bump run like a freestyler, skiing powder like a powder-8 winner, etc.. The best in the world all use technique which is most definitely specialized for that particular type of skiing. A truly top shelf skier would hit a groomer making clean fast arcs and looking a lot like a WC racer, would jump into some bumps and swivel his hips down through like Mosely, hit a huge steep face like Coombes, handle deep pow another way, even grab nasty big air when the opportunities present themselves and make everyone drop their jaw. Ok, that last one I'll leave for the "young" top shelf skiers. :-)

Are there similarities between all these conditions and techniques? Absolutely. Are certain aspects of a turn applicable everywhere? Sure. They aren't COMPLETELY different. But there most definitely are differences and if you know what to look for you will see them as stylistic changes. Feet closer together sometimes, more or less flexion and extension, more or less pivoting, more or less angulation, more or less anticipation, more or less pole planting, etc...etc...etc... The top shelf skier adapts many factors to the conditions to ski at the highest level of performance in those conditions.

And if you want a one-size-fits-all approach to skiing all the conditions you can get what many would consider plenty good enough performance to be impressive. But mostly what I think you would be demonstrating is A) extremely good proficiency at YOUR way of skiing and B) great athleticism...neither of which are bad things. But truly top shelf skiing means adapting a bit to the terrain and conditions.

I once saw a video of Bode Miller in some bumps and he looked gawd awful. Obviously, his style of skiing is very race oriented and he does not know how to adapt for bumps.

wait.. was I condenscending again? Nothing personal I promise...
Top shelf post.
post #35 of 46
I think shaw was the one who should be posting his credentials and I don't think what I said was so controversial. His statement was the absolute one (that if you change style in different conditions you are a bad skier). My statement was merely common sense. And how am I 5 years behind? And how does the number of days on the snow that I have relate to anything? But for your information it is quite a few(nearly 50) In the context that his post were in it can be assumed that by style he meant technique. We weren't really talking so much about style were we? Or maybe I'm wrong....But I think technique was the issue. Also is fluidity a style? I think of it more as a prerequisite for good skiing. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. Shaw also has around 5 posts and hasn't been back to clarify his remark so how credible is he?
post #36 of 46
Also if you mean to say I'm 5 years behind either because my example involved even weight distribution whilst powder skiing and more weight on the outside ski whilst carving...you had better clue me in. Last time I checked even those who are adept at two-footed carving still place the majority of their weight on the outside ski. Also I admit I am not a powder guru but unless you are on some really fat skis how will my example not hold true. Unless the fundamental laws of the universe have changed in the last five years I think gravity still works....help me out...
post #37 of 46
jinx,

Conclusion: there is no such thing as "THE right way to ski" and certainly not "ONE right way to ski in all conditions".
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSOcean10
Also if you mean to say I'm 5 years behind either because my example involved even weight distribution whilst powder skiing and more weight on the outside ski whilst carving...you had better clue me in. Last time I checked even those who are adept at two-footed carving still place the majority of their weight on the outside ski. Also I admit I am not a powder guru but unless you are on some really fat skis how will my example not hold true. Unless the fundamental laws of the universe have changed in the last five years I think gravity still works....help me out...
Even fat boards that allow the big turn in powder don't dictate it...and in fact a lot of very good skiers don't like a lot of sidecut on their "guns" for this among other reasons. How about buttering and sliding in powder? Looks very different than swooping SGS-style turns in the same snow by the same skier. What about Spatulas? Very progressive, mind-blowing even, and very different again. Those fundamental laws of theuniverse are definitely still in place.

If being relaxed and displaying dynamic balance are techniques, and in some way they are imo, I would agree that these should always be present.
post #39 of 46
Some poeple would consider changing weight distribution and foot seperation changes, and using more of the base than just the bottom of the metal edge to be style\technique adjustments, and switching between rotary-steered turns and carved turns to be syle\technique changes.
post #40 of 46
I'm not talking about ski design I'm talking about gravity. If you take the weight off of a foot in the powder I dont care how fat the ski is one will still rise a bit and one will still sink , no?
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSOcean10
I'm not talking about ski design I'm talking about gravity. If you take the weight off of a foot in the powder I dont care how fat the ski is one will still rise a bit and one will still sink , no?
Generally I was agreeing with your earlier statement. A big turn on mid-fat to fat boards in powder will allow an outside-ski dominant turn, however, very similar to a carved big turn on a groomer, with hips well away from the ski & outside leg straightened. You get enough float from the one ski, you just have to go fast enough. You can also do the opposite, ride only the inside ski and lift the outside ski off the snow. Pretty cool to be able to do in soft snow, but the catch is you have to be willing to cary the speed.

However, even those fat skis don't dictate only this type of turn. So you can change style either in different conditions or on different whims. And, generally the people who "always ski the same" aren't doing a big turn even on groomers, they're generally keeping their hips over their skis more or less.

Regarding ski design, my point was that many people want designs that allow a maximum of versatility. They want to be able to use different techniques.
post #42 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
And I agree with you, but the issue is whether or not the best skiers "look" like they've changed their balance and ski management - they don't. Trust me on this - I skied with Uncle Louie today (ex-Breck and Copper instructor). We hit all kinds of different terrain and conditions, but he looked dynamic and smooth through all of it - and that's the key - he looked the same - his "style" didn't change.
WOW .....THANKS
post #43 of 46
Here is my secret....start with the skeleton and then add this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
Tactics and skills blending is key. Having the skills to blend, and the knowledge to use tactics is what they do.

Their own ski "style" is theirs, and their skill enables them to be their style no matter what the mountain throws at them.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx
: i'm totally confused!! epic is wicked, i learned a lot about skiing and the gear by loitering around various threads, but now i got to that point where it all stopped making sense.. everyone is suggesting a different way of doing things :

from various theads:

- should lead the inside ski
- should pull the inside ski back s.t. it's aligned with the outside ski

- should wheigh (yes, it's a bad word - read 'put pressure' or whatever) the outside ski
- should distribute the pressure to both skis

- should flex ankles and apply pressure to the tongue of the boot
- should maintain a centered stance on the skis (no pressure on the boot)

and so on ad nauseam.

jinx confused


edit: i avoided the stance arguments on purpose, let's not go there
Don't feel bad. I have noticed a few posts like this recently. The fact is most people are confused, especially those who post. On this forum about 5% is pure gold....30% is correct, but unless you know what they mean already, it can be hard to understand, this I would suggest is more of a limitation of the forum, what can be hard to describe in words is often real easy to show on the hill...the rest of the posts are pure garbage.

Often people take bits and pieces of things they heard or read put them together and come to the wrong conclusion. Remeber, you have to pass tests and exams to get certified, but they will sell anyone a keyboard. It is often difficult to tell who is right and wrong, but just becuase someone types "loud" doesn't make them correct.

My advice, as I have given before....is this: The trick is not to know how this technique or move is differrent from that move, the trick is to know how they are the same. Good skiing, is good skiing. I know some people argue you can tell the difference between top PSIA, CSIA, PMTS, Racer, Austrian etc etc...BULL! The paths to get there may differ, but the end goal or destination is the same. Top dogs are top dogs, any differences are do to their individual charateristics...a 6' 6" ft tall lanky guy wont look like a 5'8" tank. Has nothing to do with system they came up through. What you need to understand is how they ski the same...what they all do no matter what is the gold, the real fundamentals that you need to ski well. The rest is window dressing.

When comparing posts...remeber to link this: Part of the body to Part of turn (break down the turn into 3 parts...start/middle/end). This may help as I notice things get confused where people will talk about different parts of the turn or somtimes forget to clarify, and that will confuse things.
post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
You're about 5 years behind in modern ski technique. I'm not starting a pissing match, but please post your credentials for making this "absolute" statement. You're leading unsuspecting people down a poor path. How many ski days do you have in this year?

What Shaw posted is right on target. The statement didn't mean that the skier wasn't changing technique - Shaw said that the style would look the same with all of smoothness of an easy groomer when skiing a double black. I've found this to be true myself and it definitely separates "good" skiers from those who have truly mastered the skills.

Shaw is right IMHO. A racer has a style that can follow him in changing conditions. The fundamentals: how you stand on the ski, how you pressure the ski, you know the basics. For me the racer is the perfect example. You can see them on the hill with confidence.

Doug Coombs was another example. His style of skiing allowed him to adapt to variations in terrain and snow. But no matter what conditions, you could tell it was Coombs.
post #46 of 46

Interesting question

Pressure:

Pressure the outside ski or the both skis: In the way I have mostly focused on technique wise for skiing I was taught outside or inside or both or anything in between. Yet my background is what many here view as a 'narrow" school of ski technique. Even in this 'narrow' school there is no one way or right answer to that one. Conditions and intent dictate. In Eric D's book he pretty much is talking super phantom style turns which has your outside foot weighted at the top of the turn. But in his appendix where there are drills you learn the weighted release which is the total opposite of this.

Tip Lead:

The tip lead one, as I've been taught, is a bit more controversial. My own take is tip lead happens, but you fight to keep the inside foot back so it does not get excessive. The goal much like the pressure question above is that on tough all mountain terrain or on the race course, you need to stay balanced over your skis so that either ski can take over if need be. If you have too much inside tip lead and all of a sudden that ski needs to be dominant due to conditions, you'll be instantly way in the back seat. If you keep it pulled back so it's more in line with your outside ski then you're better able to handle the real life dynamics of difficult terrain where pressure changes can be instantaneous.

Yet, I was skiing with a PSIA III cert about a month ago who was pointing out all sorts of on purpose tip lead on some instructors illustrating what he described as very well done open parallel turns as one might be asked to demonstrate in their PSIA III exam. But this was on 'safe' groomers. I don't fully understand the rational of on purpose tip lead in that context. But it might explain why some people say it's ok or even desireable.

For myself it was a problem I had for my first couple of years of skiing that really kept me in the back seat. Now I keep the inside foot back without thinking about it.

Pressuring the shins vs staying centered:

This one might be a variant opinion due to shaped skis. My buds in the local ski club had told me that to get the old straight skis to turn or carve you had to pressure the shins to get the area of the ski between the tips and the bindings to bend, then the ski would enter a carve. Without that shin pressure they say it was hard to get them to start carving. But, I've only ever been on shaped skis. On shaped skis a more centered approach is taught most often. But if a person is back seat a pressure the shins cue might be just the thing to get them out of that position. Even on shaped skis playing with the dynamics of fore/aft/centered position is a key skill according to John Clendenon for instance. But the idea of just keeping pressure on the shins at all times (and I was told that in my first lesson) seems old school.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › are we all talking about the same sport?!