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Mogul Skiing MA, Please

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
Following two clips are my mogul runs, please let me know how to improve my form and stance. You can rip it apart as you wish.

http://artloversplus.com/ski/tahoe/MVI_0570.AVI

The above is on small moguls, Mt. Lincoln, Sugar Bowl

http://artloversplus.com/ski/tahoe/MVI_0573.AVI

The above is on large moguls, double diamond, varied terrains. Mt. Lincoln, Sugar Bowl.

I know I do not have a "quiet" upper body and my skis are probably too long (Salomon Crossmax 10 @180cm). I am 172cm and 165lbs.
post #2 of 33

First

First you need to learn how to make a parallel turn on the groomed, then a short radius turn on the groomed. Then you can learn how to ski bumps
post #3 of 33
You have some issues that need to be solved on groomers, that in actuality you could probably solve in a few days of lessons to be quite honest... The glaring obvious thing is that stem you're making. but the thing is...there is a reason you're making that stem that has to do with that fact that without it you will lose control. So get a better handle on your short turns...gain your control... There are lots of things to work on, I'm not even going to start. You'd be much better off sending us some video of yourself doing short and long turns on groomer, let everyone give you MA on that and fix that skiing first.

Personally I think that if you ski a run like this....you not only get in the way of other people but you are not helping yourself improve...you're just getting down the hill and developing a number of nasty bad habits that will take you a long time to break. Sweet skiing is not about survival. its not about going down the most wicked run you can imagine possible to tell your friends you did or to keep up with them..if you revert to bad skiing habits in order to do it.

Don't take it the wrong way..I see people that are much worse than you going down similar runs... (They shouldn't be either). I'm just saying, get back to basics...come back to bumps later. In all of the higher level clinics I have attended, including certification clinics, etc..we spent 98% of our time on easy blue groomers...and that is with a class full of experienced experts. Trying to give you any advice about your bump skiing now is semi pointeless because you obviously have some things that need to be worked out on groomers first.

cheers
post #4 of 33

Warning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecut
First you need to learn how to make a parallel turn on the groomed, then a short radius turn on the groomed. Then you can learn how to ski bumps
Jackwan, what Sidecut said. But I admire you having the gutts to ski in conditions like that, filming it and posting it here.

Im not going to rip it apart since that would do no good to nobady but please let me post a warning example of the dangers that you are exposing yourselfe to:

http://media.putfile.com/One-skier-down

I see this as part of my work as a ski-instructor to advise skiers to stick to terrain intended for level of skills. BTW, you need a copy of my new instruction video .
post #5 of 33
You appear pretty fearless skiing the second steeper pitch, so I think that's a good thing because evrything else is just tactics and technique which you will be able to learn. I think the suggestions to practice short turns on the groomed allowing yourself to have better prospects of making better bump turms later in moguls is very wise. I think since you are motivated to improve you would enjoy reading some books on skiing. Of course, skiing with an instructor will allow you to advance faster and reduces the chances you will miss apply the techniques discussed .

I think you would enjoy Lita Tajada Flores books as well as the new mogul book by Dan Depiro . Keep skiing there is no substitute for ski milage, but you need to do some drills that will give you a foundation to take into the bumps. 180 cm skis probably at least 10 cm too long for you.
post #6 of 33
you need to keep both feet closer together and ski parallel. Like previous posters have said, work on short linked turns in blue terrain.
post #7 of 33
Jack,

You've got a lot of balls and a lot of ski. I've got a few inches and 50 pounds on you, but I'm skiing 168cm skis. You could easily go as short as 160cm. Yes it's hard to believe. I've been moaning with every new pair that I've downsized all the way from 202 even as my weight went up and my height went down. Just do it.

Although this isn't the strongest mogul skiing we've seen lately, there are some good things to note. In the second clip, the first turn is a classic stem turn. Note the weight moving up the hill and the transfer of weight to the new outside ski. Picking up the tail of the inside ski and keeping the tip in contact with the back side of the bump is a great move. Another good thing I see is that you are not shopping for turns. When you finish one turn, you go right into the next one. In the second clip, all of that vertical motion above the waist is helping you turn. Another nice thing I can see is the use of the pole to stabilize you through the edge change. Finally, although a wide stance is generally not a good thing in the bumps, you are making effective use of the increased balance afforded by it. Except for one little bobble in the second clip, speed control is pretty good and you're in no danger of falling.

For those of you who are snickering, just remember "there but for the grace of ... shorter skis ... go I". Whether your handicap is long skis or pea soup fog, this is not a bad defensive way to navigate difficult terrain. Jack looks like the classic case of someone doing just fine on terrain that a lot of instructors would not take him on due to a large number of ingredients in the recipe for disaster. The difference here is soft snow and a can do attitude. Jack is making effective use of the skills that he has and is not getting in anyone's way. Glen Plake may be able to cruise control the bumps with long skis, but mere mortals are going to be real tempted to cheat just like this. And there's nothing WRONG with that. He's having fun and has not come close to killing himself or anyone else.

That said we don't want to fix things so much as give you new skills that will let you have the additional option of going on offense instead of being on defense all the time. Here are the things I suggest:
1) quick feet
2) slow feet
3) edge set/absorption

1) quick feet
(booming voice from the heavens) Get Thee Shorter Skis! Practice pivot slips where the objective is to turn your feet as fast as possible while the skis are flat on the snow. You should be able to this just fine. With shorter skis you should be able to do it better. Got that? Now do it even faster. Pivot turns will get your direction changed much faster than stem turns. This will give you more options.

2) slow feet
Some people are going to tell you that your stance is to wide for moguls. It is. But that's only a symptom. Look at the beginning of the second clip. Just as you start you are in a good stance width. But right before the first turn you stick your right foot down the hill to put the brakes on.

(Madden voice) Boom - you're in a wide stance. This is ok for a stem turn, but there is a way to put the breaks on via a parallel turn. Look at Dave (from the Davebumps2 clip).

He's got his skis angled uphill before he starts his turn. You don't always need this much to slow down, but you need to be able to put on the breaks with your skis in parallel. So where do the "slow feet" come in to play? Simple, instead of turning your feet right or left quickly, you need to learn to roll your feet onto higher edges RELATIVELY SLOWLY and let the skis put more shape into the turn. Using your edges more will give you the stability you need if your going to KEEP your feet closer together. Look how far you've turned and still have relatively flat skis:

In contrast, look at the difference in Jack's edge angles. He's on his new edges above the fall line.

As Sidecut has mentioned, doing good parallel turns and then transitioning those into short radius turns with edging is the best way to build these skills.

3) edge set/absorption
This is the big difference between offense and defense. Here you are sticking your right leg out and bracing against it.

This is forcing your upper body to fold over to absorb the pressure. What we want to see is both legs out a little less than the one leg and the legs bending a lot more. This will let your upper body stay more upright. Watch Johnny Mosely set his edges and then boom - absorb with knee flex. Ok - this might be an extreme example, but it should demonstrate the point.



Yes, you've got some new tactics to learn. Yes, those tactics are easier to learn on groomed terrain. But you can already do moguls. Don't let the naysayers stop you just because you're not doing it like the hot shots. You've got a road map for improvement. You can do it! But you do need to trash those war canoes.
post #8 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Personally I think that if you ski a run like this....you not only get in the way of other people but you are not helping yourself improve...you're just getting down the hill and developing a number of nasty bad habits that will take you a long time to break. Sweet skiing is not about survival. its not about going down the most wicked run you can imagine possible to tell your friends you did or to keep up with them..if you revert to bad skiing habits in order to do it.

Don't take it the wrong way..I see people that are much worse than you going down similar runs... (They shouldn't be either). I'm just saying, get back to basics...come back to bumps later.
cheers
did you say cheers!

i think this guy has as much right to take up space as anyone and it appears he was having a pretty good time.

first of all you have a lot of positives in your skiing. the biggest is your ability to "move down the hill". if every person who exhibited a little stem in their turn on a bump run was banned, mogul runs would be empty places.

i first looked at the "steep run". your first turn tells a great deal. it is a textbook example of "rotary pushoff". rather than releasing or reducing the edge angle under the ski edge that is below your right big toe, you maintain that edge angle and push the left tail to the left. one ancillary issue is your hard pole plant that becomes an axis of rotation that you "turn around".

your goal should be to initiate turns with both tips falling down the hill as opposed to a ski tail first moving up the hill.

you'll hear folks talking about a great deal of rotation with your upper body to initiate and to turn. i feel confident that if you learn to tip your outside (downhill) ski to start a turn you may not feel the need to utilize the muscles of your upper body.

don't feel the need to do as much rotation as quickly. my teaching mantra in most cases and particularly in bumps is folks try to do TOO MUCH, TOO SOON, TOO FAST. you're clearly not afraid of the terrain. let the turn evolve sloooowly.

go back to that first turn and try three things;

1.when you start your hips begin in a decent position and then you gently sit down. stay tall and keep your hips over your boots. touch your pole and get it out of the snow. don't plant and then rotate around the pole. a pole plant shouldn't grow roots!

2.release the right ski by one of four movements....roll your right foot towards the right little toe, feel as though you pry your right big toe off the snow, move your right knee to the right two inches, move your right thigh to the right two inches, imagine your right boot is filled to the rim with boiling water and you want to tip a little out to the side or downhill. all these simply describe reducing the edge angle on the right ski. this will serve to get the ski tips pointing downhill and preclude you feeling as though you have to push the tail of the left ski to the left.

3. as the tips begin to fall downhill focus on pointing both ski tips back uphill to the right in a progressive smooth manner.

this just reworks your first turn, however, it's a start.

you're a brave guy to post video on the internet for all to pick to pieces. based upon the guts this shows and your ability to "move it down the hill" i think you have the makings of a great bump skier.
post #9 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
In contrast, look at the difference in Jack's edge angles. He's on his new edges above the fall line.
You mean me?:

FYI for those of you that know sort of know Sugar Bowl, The first clip is on Ralves run. It looks like a mid day sort of bump run. they are small gentle and usually pretty soft. A great place to learn bumps. They groom this run several times a week and for the month of March with the amount of snow that has fallen, I don't think it's been firm pack all month.

The second clip is in Steilhang Gulley to skiers right of Steilhang. It's a moderatly narrow chute. Most of the time the bumps in here are gentle and forgiving but quite a bit larger than the bumps on Ralves. The terrain in here can get pretty nasty if there is no snow fall for a long period of time.

Gutsy for you to post your video. I like the athletic attitude you have show in your skiing.
post #10 of 33

Think about your skiing paradigm

Where do you like to ski in addition to bumps?

I ask because I do agree that for the ski you're currently on they're too long, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily should go shorter in another ski.

The advice you're getting, which is all quite good, is basically suggesting you get a 160 recreational carving ski and focus primarily on turning through higher edge angles. (Probably a crude summary on my part.) There are some fundamentals you need to work on, such as a balanced, athetic stance, that will apply to all types of skiing, but the equipment and carving approach will not.

Maybe try some K2 Public Enemies or Line Chronics in roughly a 174-ish length, or for a slightly stiffer ski a Volkl Karma. Also try some slalom skis in maybe a 155.

Definitely learn to ride the edge around in an arc, but also learn to steer the skis as a unit. In addition to pivot slips, working on quick jump turns in a straight line down an easy blue can help you find your skis, and to then keep a flat ski in the bumps.
post #11 of 33

The power of Epic

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
You mean me?:
Oops - sorry about. I was trying to give credit where it was due (I did get it right the first time), but really screwed that up. Thanks for the info on Sugar Bowl.
post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook
The advice you're getting, which is all quite good, is basically suggesting you get a 160 recreational carving ski and focus primarily on turning through higher edge angles. (Probably a crude summary on my part.) There are some fundamentals you need to work on, such as a balanced, athetic stance, that will apply to all types of skiing, but the equipment and carving approach will not.
...
Definitely learn to ride the edge around in an arc, but also learn to steer the skis as a unit.
Yes that was a crude summary, but you made up for it with the last sentence. That's where I was going at least.
post #13 of 33
FYI the first clip of Jackwan1 (ralves) is about the same conditions I was skiing in the clip that therusty used as reference. Probably about the same size moguls as well.

DC
post #14 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook
The advice you're getting, which is all quite good, is basically suggesting you get a 160 recreational carving ski and focus primarily on turning through higher edge angles. (Probably a crude summary on my part.) There are some fundamentals you need to work on, such as a balanced, athetic stance, that will apply to all types of skiing, but the equipment and carving approach will not.

Maybe try some K2 Public Enemies or Line Chronics in roughly a 174-ish length, or for a slightly stiffer ski a Volkl Karma. Also try some slalom skis in maybe a 155.

Definitely learn to ride the edge around in an arc, but also learn to steer the skis as a unit. In addition to pivot slips, working on quick jump turns in a straight line down an easy blue can help you find your skis, and to then keep a flat ski in the bumps.
i didn't suggest higher edge angles!

i suggested lower edge angles and movements that would release his skiis. the length of his skis is not a particular issue.

the last thing the guy needs is a 155 slalom ski.

he has no freakin idea what the heck a pivot slip is: nor do 99% of the people posting here.

in the event anyone knew what pivot slips are they couldn't do pivot slips nor should they be expected to.

hockey stop.....sure
hockey slide......maybe
linked hockey slides......doubtfull
pivot slips........fahgetaboutit.
post #15 of 33
ditto to what Rusty said.
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
i didn't suggest higher edge angles!

i suggested lower edge angles and movements that would release his skiis. the length of his skis is not a particular issue.

the last thing the guy needs is a 155 slalom ski.

he has no freakin idea what the heck a pivot slip is: nor do 99% of the people posting here.

in the event anyone knew what pivot slips are they couldn't do pivot slips nor should they be expected to.

hockey stop.....sure
hockey slide......maybe
linked hockey slides......doubtfull
pivot slips........fahgetaboutit.
RustyGuy,

Sorry if I misread your post. Definitely read you to be advocating he release his edges, I did not pick up that you were suggesting lower edge angles.

Pivot slips are an advanced skill??? I doubt he can do them now, for that matter I doubt he currently can do the quick jump turns I recommended either. He's an athletic skier, though, and if he commits to practicing them , will he get them quickly and will they help lay a foundation for bump skiing? Imo yes.
post #17 of 33
spiess turns may certainly serve a purpose as a drill, however, i would not put them at the top of my list for the guy.

a balanced centered stance would go a long way.

the ability to release his outside ski and steer the ski tips in a progressive manner would be my next goal.
post #18 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
...in the event anyone knew what pivot slips are they couldn't do pivot slips nor should they be expected to...
Hi Rusty,

Who and when would you recommend pivot slips?

Just curious,

Chris
post #19 of 33
I didn't really see any bumps in the first video, anyone else notice that? I don't think I could have skied moguls with such a wide awkward stance. I think the suggestion to practice short parallel turns on a groomer is right on. Follow through on the turns instead of making incomplete snowplow pointers. And make your pole plants effective. Those looked like canes or crutches to me. Finally, get some flex in the knees.
post #20 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
Hi Rusty,

Who and when would you recommend pivot slips?

Just curious,

Chris
chris it's simply a tough exercise to get folks to do and takes some practice. you take the average group of instructors and they cannot do the task particularly well.

if the goal is to create independent steering of the lower legs pivot slips are a wonderful way to ingrain the movement.

i will dare say take a group of recreational skiers out and show them the exercise and it will take a lot of work to get them done with any degree of proficiency.

done poorly and they are a waste of time.
post #21 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
chris it's simply a tough exercise to get folks to do and takes some practice. you take the average group of instructors and they cannot do the task particularly well.

if the goal is to create independent steering of the lower legs pivot slips are a wonderful way to ingrain the movement.

i will dare say take a group of recreational skiers out and show them the exercise and it will take a lot of work to get them done with any degree of proficiency.

done poorly and they are a waste of time.
I think you've just summed up why there's so little depth to American skiing. Pitching is integral to golf, too, but 95% of American golfers won't practice it either.

However, for a motivated, athletic, intermediate skier I think it is a pretty basic exercise and one they can easily get their arms around. Find an appropriate practice slope, and plan a cycle where for at least 10 runs they'll hit that slope as part of the run and practice only pivot slips, and dedicate two back-to-back 2-day weekends and at least one day bridging the week in between. I bet you they'll be doing them pretty well by the end.

Of course, how to produce that motivation is a different thing entirely.
post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook
I think you've just summed up why there's so little depth to American skiing. Pitching is integral to golf, too, but 95% of American golfers won't practice it either.

However, for a motivated, athletic, intermediate skier I think it is a pretty basic exercise and one they can easily get their arms around. Find an appropriate practice slope, and plan a cycle where for at least 10 runs they'll hit that slope as part of the run and practice only pivot slips, and dedicate two back-to-back 2-day weekends and at least one day bridging the week in between. I bet you they'll be doing them pretty well by the end.

Of course, how to produce that motivation is a different thing entirely.

i think pivot slips are a bit more like full flop shots with a 60 degree wedge or a knock down wedge shot into a thirty mph breeze.

all can be taught, however, in the case of skiing there are easier ways to teach independent rotation of the femurs under a stable upper half.
post #23 of 33
Thanks, Rusty. I guess I understand what you're saying and also agree with CTKook to some degree; depends on the person you're working with I suppose.

What other ways do you teach independant rotation?

Chris
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
Thanks, Rusty. I guess I understand what you're saying and also agree with CTKook to some degree; depends on the person you're working with I suppose.

What other ways do you teach independant rotation?

Chris
certainly it depends upon the person. what i'm putting forth is based upon quite a few upper level bump lessons where i explained the movement, demoed the movement, and then watched folks botch the exercise.

boot skiing, hocky stops, hockey slides, linked hockey slides.

i will reiterate that few folks are able to do pivot slips right off the bat or without a progression leading up to it. asking someone to attempt an exercise and having them fail is not the best methodology to create a happy lesson!
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
i will reiterate that few folks are able to do pivot slips right off the bat or without a progression leading up to it. asking someone to attempt an exercise and having them fail is not the best methodology to create a happy lesson!
As a business proposition I can't argue with that within the confines of the average "upper level" student.

Here however you've got an athletic skier who's happy to have his skiing ripped apart in the interest of getting better. Assuming he's sincere (no offense to the o.p., I'm sure he is), that already puts him worlds ahead of most "upper level students" in terms of headspace and potential. So why not give him a basic drill that, while it may be hard at first, will prepare him for the more difficult task of skiing bumps well?
post #26 of 33
You cant learn how to ski on the internet or from reading a book or magazine. But you can get lots of valuable information and new ides.
post #27 of 33
Thread Starter 
Thank you guys so much.

I have been reading a lot about what you have said here and even some of the terms I do not understand, however I do appreciate your inputs.

First of all, let me say that I sand bagged you a little bit from the onset. Let me explain:
I have been skiing for over 30 years, for my own enjoyment. I did not take too many lessons, especially in the last 20 years. Between 1990 and 1998, when the "shaped ski" revolution took place, I did not ski frequently, maybe only two days per year and if that, therefore I missed the entire transition. When I woke up in 2000, it was a totally different world. There is a lot to learn, but because my pride and stubberness, I did not go to the school to update my technique and to begin with, mostly created by my own. Of course, the techniques I created will not meet all you professional's eyes. But I can say this, I have never hurt anyone on the slope, neither I have fall down on mogul fields like one of the film illustrated. Basically, I was injury free for all those 30 years, except last May my jump at Squaw landed on a flat and bruised my tendon which set me back for few months in the summer.

I have never intended to be a ski instructor, neither I will compete in any races. Skiing to me is just a relaxation, enjoyment and self challenge.

The reason I boldly post these clips to have you rip apart and ask for your suggestions is that I found increase difficulties to advance myself. I do think your suggestions are very helpful and the followings will be implemented.

1. Buy a shorter carving ski. I have my eye on a Dynastar skicross 10 or 9 and a Blizzard Titan 8.2. The Skicross 9 can be bought for $200 including shipping and I think it is good for me. However, if the skicross 10 or the Bilzzard 8.2 can be had for around 200 also, I might go for those. All those are including bindings, size 160cm.

2. I will take on some private lessons and ask the instructor to show me how to do certain drills discussed here. As Tdk6 alluded here that you can's learn skiing by reading, you have to learn on the slopes.

post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
Thanks, Rusty. I guess I understand what you're saying and also agree with CTKook to some degree; depends on the person you're working with I suppose.

What other ways do you teach independant rotation?

Chris

certainly it depends upon the person. what i'm putting forth is based upon quite a few upper level bump lessons where i explained the movement, demoed the movement, and then watched folks botch the exercise.

boot skiing, hocky stops, hockey slides, linked hockey slides.

i will reiterate that few folks are able to do pivot slips right off the bat or without a progression leading up to it. asking someone to attempt an exercise and having them fail is not the best methodology to create a happy lesson!
Thanks, Rusty.

To be clear, I wasn't taking exception to your position.

Just wanted to get those other ways for my personal understanding

Chris
post #29 of 33
Jackwan1,

Sounds like a plan. You don't say where on the mountain you want to ski in general, though? Carving skis will not be the best choice for every skier. I believe the Blizzard you mention still has metal in it, for instance, and a lot of sidecut, something to think about if you want to improve in bumps. If you ski primarily in Tahoe, you may have much more fun, too, on a wider-waisted ski. Rather than buying again immediately, demoing widely to get a sense of different ski constructions and shapes may give you a clearer idea of their different "flavors."
post #30 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwan1
Following two clips are my mogul runs, please let me know how to improve my form and stance. You can rip it apart as you wish.

http://artloversplus.com/ski/tahoe/MVI_0570.AVI

The above is on small moguls, Mt. Lincoln, Sugar Bowl

http://artloversplus.com/ski/tahoe/MVI_0573.AVI

The above is on large moguls, double diamond, varied terrains. Mt. Lincoln, Sugar Bowl.

I know I do not have a "quiet" upper body and my skis are probably too long (Salomon Crossmax 10 @180cm). I am 172cm and 165lbs.
this is HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOGUL SKIING. Get Dan DiPiro mogul book, read (100 pages) and stick to what he says. - much more enjoyable. I'm not the expert in moguls but obvious mistakes:
* too wide stance
* hands all over
* your upper body does not face fall line
* don't know - get the book
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