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Steamboat sues instructor - Page 4

post #91 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
When a lawyer appeals to the public for sympathy instead of declaring the outrageousness of the false charges, it's a sure sign he's fighting an uphill battle.
Yay for broad generalizations.
post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Yay for broad generalizations.
As someone who worked for Ski Corp near the begining of the ASC era, I think it may be a good strategy. There is still a lot of residual ill will towards ASC. It might make scence to have them want in a position where they just want the issue to go away.
post #93 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredthe'boat
But he doesn't work there now and is still claiming to do so.
Says who? Stop spreading misinformation. It makes no sense that he would be claiming that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shredthe'boat
Certification may mean nothing, but it does give you access to technical information (remember, when this guy is not teaching in a ski school, he has no access to internal clinics/training). However, many people have seen him teaching, and from what I understand he teaches some strange things and does little to help the students (he just goes watch and follow).

Do I sense a customer of his?
Don't fall into the trap of beleiving that all of this technical gobbleygook will make you a better teacher or help your students. Would you rather be able to follow Bob Barnes or stand around listening to Kristi Robertson yammer? What do you think made a Cantrell, Campbell or Stiegler great teachers.

No I'm not a customer. I wouldn't waste my time skiing Steamboat especially with ASC runing it into the ground.
post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecut
Says who? Stop spreading misinformation. It makes no sense that he would be claiming that.
I know for a fact that he has been.
post #95 of 115

shredthe'boat

Before you take offense, I think you are probably right.

BUT

How do you know as in ..... "I know for a fact" ....

I often "know in my gut" that someone is doing something .... right down to where your bones ache from it .. but you can't take that to court and if you try you are gonna get a chunk out of your ass and it's gonna hurt.
post #96 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Before you take offense, I think you are probably right.

BUT

How do you know as in ..... "I know for a fact" ....

I often "know in my gut" that someone is doing something .... right down to where your bones ache from it .. but you can't take that to court and if you try you are gonna get a chunk out of your ass and it's gonna hurt.
I can say I am 99% sure. I don't want to get into details of the events that occured that suggest that he does. If you don't want to believe me, fair enough, thats your perogative. I've really said too much about this issue and I don't particurarly want to get in trouble with my supervisors about releasing any info in these threads (should they by any small chance find out about them).
post #97 of 115

another set of voices

'boat, I believe you.

To be more direct than I was earlier, I am curious about the spectrum of opinion in your locker room re: this guy, what's happening to him, and how the paid pros see the issue of under the table instructing in general. What's their consensus?

I also will understand if you're feeling more and more uncomfortable about answering.
post #98 of 115
Anyone have a mug shot? I know I worked at Steamboat at the same time as Kenny, the name is super familiar. I just want to make sure he is who I think he is. What line up did he work out of?
post #99 of 115
This may sound harsh, because it is.

From my perspective and that of many longtime pros (15-30 years) where I work, the onsite under the table instructing we see here is often not difficult to spot. It is most often done by a few without the skills, investment and ability to make it as big fish in the pool. That would take commitment, training, dedication, forbearance, people skills and maturity.
It's no surprise to hear this gentleman has marginal teaching skills according to the paid rank and file on the hill. This is consistent with a trail left that he might as well have flagged with orange tape.
Whether or not it can be proved by the villainous ski corporation or government agency, and whether he has to ante up is not entirely the irony here. Neither is his certification or lack thereof under whatever body of skiing one wants to trash.
His clients whether they realize it or not are getting even less than what they paid for, while thinking they got a deal.
post #100 of 115

vera

At many hills here in the mid-east ... your statement would be a stretch.

I know from threds here that the quality sounds way better out west, but here .... I can tell you have never had a Pocono lesson; it's a real crap shoot!
post #101 of 115
So, Yuki I knew my last post might get the hairy eyeball , thanks for your response.
I know my perspective is colored by location and time-in-grade, for sure.
(I did grow up night skiing at Bristol Mtn. though!)
Fill me in what you are thinking about this practice in the mideast. Is it common? Is it possible to get a top-end lesson there under the table (are there viable competitors)?
How do people win the crapshoot for legit instructors? Do lesson costs encourage going around the system?
post #102 of 115
I really have no idea on teaching under the table. When I was employed by a ski school, I was asked a few times and declined.

Oddly enough, a few weeks ago, I gave a five hour "private" to a friend of mine and I was at another hill wearing the jacket of another school I used to work for .... my kid took my "civilian" jacket this winter and the old SS jacket was/is all I have now. I was waiting to get "flagged" since the other school is only fifteen miles away, but fortunately it didn't happen.

No money or other "squid-pro-quo" ... it's a guy who works for me ... I buy my own ticket and lunch.

If ..... and note the IF ... I was of a different mind set, considering the low pay and treatment of local instructors in these parts ... I would never turn someone in. Personally, I don't see that giving free lessons to friends as being a crime. I have little or no respect for the last two SSD's and their respective management.

If your employer is fair, count your blessings in that "two way street of life" .... and be loyal.
post #103 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredthe'boat
Yuki,
My knowledge of US law is limited to that of American TV shows (I am Australian). .
hmmmm you don't happen to rollerblade do you?
post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
hmmmm you don't happen to rollerblade do you?
No, but you probably know who I am.
post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tief schnee
Anyone have a mug shot? I know I worked at Steamboat at the same time as Kenny, the name is super familiar. I just want to make sure he is who I think he is. What line up did he work out of?
Don't have pic. He was SB lineup, mainly kids.
post #106 of 115
never mind. Gonna think before i post.
post #107 of 115

if resorts paid the instructor 50%-----

i was shocked to find out that the instructor got paid only $90 out of $450 for a day lesson and that an instructor got $8 an jhour for leading a group of 10yr olds down double-black diamonds. its the resorts that should be sued!
post #108 of 115
$8 ... sign me up ... my "normal weekend" check was .. never mind ..
post #109 of 115
There is a fairly large difference between bringing your nanny and hiring an under-the table instructor. In the first case, you have a prior business relationship with the nanny, and are actually bringing some extra business to the resort (the nanny's lift tickets, meals, etc). In the second case, you arrived at the resort ready to take a lesson from their ski school, but decided instead to take a lesson from someone working illegally.

I think a lot of instructors work uner the table at resorts other than their home resort. In many cases regular clients want to take lessons from an instructor while on vacation at a different resort. Sometimes this is arranged through the ski schools for nearby resorts (e.g. Deer Valley instructors taking clients to Alta). In other cases the ski schools dont really have any relationship so this is done completely under the table (e.g. Killington instructor travelling with a client to Breckenridge). Since the instructor solicited the business off-site, you can actually argue that they brought business to the resort rather than taking it away. From what I can tell most ski schools aren't particularly concerned with this behavior. I have even heard of instructors that simply travel full-time with wealthy clients, and don't have a home resort.
post #110 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke walker
i was shocked to find out that the instructor got paid only $90 out of $450 for a day lesson and that an instructor got $8 an jhour for leading a group of 10yr olds down double-black diamonds. its the resorts that should be sued!

I was shocked when I realized that I paid interns more than ski "pros" are paid.
post #111 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSki
There is a fairly large difference between bringing your nanny and hiring an under-the table instructor. In the first case, you have a prior business relationship with the nanny, and are actually bringing some extra business to the resort (the nanny's lift tickets, meals, etc). In the second case, you arrived at the resort ready to take a lesson from their ski school, but decided instead to take a lesson from someone working illegally.

I think a lot of instructors work uner the table at resorts other than their home resort. In many cases regular clients want to take lessons from an instructor while on vacation at a different resort. Sometimes this is arranged through the ski schools for nearby resorts (e.g. Deer Valley instructors taking clients to Alta). In other cases the ski schools dont really have any relationship so this is done completely under the table (e.g. Killington instructor travelling with a client to Breckenridge). Since the instructor solicited the business off-site, you can actually argue that they brought business to the resort rather than taking it away. From what I can tell most ski schools aren't particularly concerned with this behavior. I have even heard of instructors that simply travel full-time with wealthy clients, and don't have a home resort.

So resorts think they can pick and choose when they apply their rules......a lawyers dream!
post #112 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
So resorts think they can pick and choose when they apply their rules......a lawyers dream!

that's what I was thinking .... I have a prior business relationship with MY instructor.... so maybe it is OK with Steamboat if I bring him along? ......

that then makes it tricky for them if they are suing this other dude though....

but then why pick on my ski instructor if you will allow my nanny/chef/masseur/chauffer to work for me on your land too....
post #113 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
So resorts think they can pick and choose when they apply their rules......a lawyers dream!


(sigh) A good lawyer would choose to phrase the situation this way. It's an excellent example of "twisting" the truth. The statement is technically true. It's also misleading in a number of ways.

The most important set of rules that apply are the USFS rules that state that anyone providing commercial services on National Forest Service land must have a special user permit. As it's been explained to me, this covers ski resorts, ski instruction and nanny services among other services. EVERYBODY NEEDS A PERMIT, PERIOD. Similar to your State Highway Patrol picking and choosing which speeders to give tickets to, the USFS has limited enforcement capabilities and thus "picks and chooses" who they go after for enforcing special user permit regulations. Lawyers may choose to attack such behaviour, but it's a common and accepted practice in our justice system.

A ski resort on NFS land is typically given exclusive rights to conduct their business under a special use permit. The permit typically allows a resort to subcontract out provision of services. If a resort chose to allow a freelance instructor to teach under the auspices of their permit, it is their right to do so provided they include the revenue generated in their accounting to the USFS. An "exclusive right to provide service" is not an obligation. The resort is also permitted to allow competitive service provides to operate on resort boundaries when those service providers choose to operate under their own permit. Finally, the resort is not obligated to PREVENT unpermitted commercial services from being conducted within the resort boundary by non-resort employees or contractors (as long as such activity does not conflict with the terms of the permit - e.g. someone building a structure on the property or disposing of hazardous waste, etc.). When a resort becomes aware of unpermitted activity they can:
1) Pursue a civil action to secure damages from past activity that infringed on their exclusive rights and/or to prevent future activity
and/or
2) Report the activity to the USFS and request criminal prosecution
Or
3) Do nothing.

Yes they can "pick and choose" what to do. No, there is nothing nefarious about it. How a resort makes it choices in these matters reveals a lot about their respect for their customers versus their respect to their stockholders. The most enlightened companies will attempt to make a reasonable compromise between the two (e.g. by allowing space in the lodge for brown baggers to eat and by ignoring all but the most blatant freelancing). Frankly, I believe we are all better off this way.
post #114 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
. The most enlightened companies will attempt to make a reasonable compromise between the two (e.g. by allowing space in the lodge for brown baggers to eat and by ignoring all but the most blatant freelancing). Frankly, I believe we are all better off this way.
Rusty,

You aren't playing fair, writing long, intellegent, well thought-out replies. What's a rabble rouser to do?
post #115 of 115
Go play with the long well drawn out dribble from your newfy dogs? That's what I do, except that I have to borrow the next door newfies.
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