New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

PMTS and No Legsteering - Page 4

post #91 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
Just a bit of clarification. PMTS uses the same movements which you can use to create different types of turns and turn shapes.
At some point it ceases to be uniquely PMTS and begins to get into areas of ski technique that are common to many disciplines. It only means PMTS is not so crazy different that it can't be applied everywhere. Perhaps in bumps and off-piste these PMTS gurus are backing off on the PMTS-specific stuff just a little bit to the point that its more applicable for those conditions...and in such a situation the distinction between PMTS and everything else is blurred a bit. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. That would be great wisdom in fact.

At any rate, I don't want to turn this into yet another debate about PMTS vs the world. I spent most of this thread defending PMTS (if you look back), so now you want to corner me into a debate the opposite direction?
post #92 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
The PMTS vid#1 has some "ok" bump skiing (not zipper line though, widely space bumps almost hand picked for medium PMTS type turns.) and vid#2 is downright mediocre.
That is an interesting viewpoint that differs from my own. I'd be delighted if I could ski bumps anywhere near the level shown in video 2. No doubt you are a great bump skier which is going to give you a different metric when grading someone's bump skiing. I'm curious, what type of turn do you use when skiing bumps?
post #93 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
...so now you want to corner me into a debate the opposite direction?
Oh no, not at all. I'm not trying to get into a PMTS vs anything debate. My post that you replied to was in relation to HeluvaSkier's post and was only meant as a clarification regarding what PMTS teaches.
post #94 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
Wow, a civil discussion about PMTS, and some good information as well.

In general, I agree with most comments said by dewdman42. I need to re-visit a little bit the one footed approach, to experiment and convince myself. Frankly we all ski with outside foot dominanting, but the degree and emphasis is where PMTS seems to diverge from PSIA. I think.

Anyway, where I see PMTS lose some ground (in terms of clarity for the layman) is in the area of short turns, bumps skiing. PMTS clearly has helped lots of intermediate skiers make some significant improvements, but it does not seem to have the same results where bumps are concerned.

It is hard enough to ski bumps with lots of rotary, but to tell an intermediate that rotary is a no-no, kills almost any chance of quick success in bumps (for low level skiers at least).

I think this is where Dan was right. As long as you insist that bump skiing is the same as groomed skiing, you will be missing something. And unfortunately PMTS insists that you can use the same techniques in the bumps. Maybe they are right as far as experts are concerned, but evidence clearly shows that it does not work for intermediates and many advanced skiers.

Let's face it, you would have to be a damned good skier to work the bumps by using aggressive tipping, counter-rotation and terrain features only. Yet this is what seems to be asked of EVERYONE in PMTS. Seems a little unrealistic to me.
Excellent

Comming mostly from the TST school of skiing myself, I can't claim to speak for PMTS, but I strongly agree with your last statement.

You would have to be a damned good skier to work bumps using aggressive tipping. Perhaps that's the ultimate goal, but there are a lot of people who aren't going to make it all the way, and there is no reason they shouldn't enjoy the bumps with some pivoting.

In my TST training I first skied by actively pivoting at slow speeds and by banking at high speeds. Later I discovered that by pivoting only slightly and then weighting the tips I could let the snow pivot the skis for me. Still later, when I discovered how a ski worked and that I was carving at high speeds, I extended my carving to low speeds. In this stage of my developement, I had to have the ski moving parallel to its edge. Pivoting and digging the edge in were mutually exclusive.

With that background, it is easy for to understand why someone would be discouraged from actively pivoting if they wanted to learn how to use a ski properly. Granted there were still exceptional circumstances, where other things had to be done, but you don't teach the basic concept by explaining all the exceptions; that only makes it harder to grasp the concept.

BTW, I see no difficulty carving short turns on the outside ski. In fact after a dozen years with my one-ski quiver of 208 SGs, lifting the inside ski and using only the outside ski (with extra forward weight bias) seems the best way to get a short turn going.
post #95 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
As long as you insist that bump skiing is the same as groomed skiing, you will be missing something. And unfortunately PMTS insists that you can use the same techniques in the bumps. Maybe they are right as far as experts are concerned, but evidence clearly shows that it does not work for intermediates and many advanced skiers.
I'm going to offer a different opinion on this. PMTS teaches the same basic movement pattern for bumps with more absorption and extension used then on a groomed run. PMTS does teach a very fast very tight turn that looks alot like a pivot, but you don't actively steer or twist your skis around. Its done with tipping. This turn can be used to zipperline the bumps if that's how you want to ski them. I prefer more of a carved style (typically seen whan a racer blasts down a bump run).

Can I ask what evidence you have that clearly shows that PMTS doesn't work in the bumps for intermediates and many advanced skiers?

BTW, I'm not saying you shouldn't use pivots to ski the bumps. I'm of the opinion that you should use whatever you want, doesn't make any difference to me. I'm just clarifying what PMTS teaches and suggesting that what it teaches does work.
post #96 of 119
Hey max.. I don't think most people mean (certainly I don't) to say that PMTS absolutely does not work in the bumps. In fact, when I am on fire on the bumps my inside ski is in fact tipping on edge (I see it in video) and I've even noticed my inside knee dive in a bit giving a very short momentary bowlegged look for a sec. (which is a characteristic PMTS thing). But I'm not at all conciously thinking about foot tipping or anything related to anything I have learned about PMTS in the past few months. Tipping the inside ski is not something that is unique only to PMTS skiers. That is just the primary emphasis of PMTS. I've been tipping my inside ski for years before ever hearing the name Harald Harb or PMTS.

But what I am meaning to say is that perhaps PMTS alone..without some pivoting or other skills which are generally frowned upon in PTMS, is going to be a bit difficult sometimes in some kinds of bump lines. My personal impression is that HH is a master of coaching race technique and high speed carving. This is not to say there is only one right way to do that, because there isn't...but certainly HH is one of the masters...and one of the few to actually write a book about it. He has also created a methodology whereby beginner and intermediate skiers can latch on to important concepts without having to read LeMaster or have a degree in biomechanics. Some other disciplines are afraid to even mention the word "counter" for example, where HH takes the attitude that skiers can handle concepts like that and do need to think about it. The MA I've seen HH do online a few times is also some of the best I've ever seen quite frankly..he has incredibly great eyes to see what skiers are or are not doing.....(again, I'm referring to racing or carving).

All that being said, I personally feel that he has not impressed me with his bump skiing nor his explanation of how to do it. What he has explained is how to ski bumps at an advanced level, not expert. He has shown PMTS techniques to ski smoothly through larger bumps (where there is lots of room to turn), essentially making short radius carving turns. He does it with expert carving skills, no doubt, but any mogul-addict would watch it and just shrug and walk away.

For some people, this is all the more they will ever want to do in the bumps and they will be happy as can be to do that...so that's cool..nothing to knock HH for. his books are primarily targeted at beginner and intermediate skiers that want to break free from that mold...and I think PMTS does very much indeed help them..even in bumps.

But..there is an even higher level of bump skiing...off piste skiing and situations where pure PMTS is simply not gonna cut it without mixing in some skills that are normally considered taboo to talk about in PMTS (namely pivoting, but not only that). Now, ask me again in a year or two..maybe I will discover some new things about PMTS which will enlighten me and I will ski the bumps in a new way or something..but as of now, they haven't demonstrated anything in their books or videos to impress me in this regard.

I saw a video of Bode Miller in the bumps too and he was even worse than HH for whatever that's worth.

As far as how I think people should ski the bumps..there are a few threads in the past few weeks on this subject, I have made my comments and generally gotten thumbs up on my comments. Do a search for stuff by me and read the bump related threads. Dan DiPiro also has that book out which is probably quite good..I'm still waiting for my copy in the mail.

cheers
post #97 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Do a search for stuff by me and read the bump related threads. Dan DiPiro also has that book out which is probably quite good..I'm still waiting for my copy in the mail.
Dewd, good post as usual. I've read your posts as well as Dan's book and I posted a short review of it. I've also taken bump lessons from a bump pro and from a PMTS coach. Personally I prefer a carving style to bump skiing rather than the zipperline pivot approach. But that's just me. I enjoy watching a good zipperline skier...I'm always in awe of the foot speed and the ability to give the knees that kind of workout (punishment in my book). Mine just won't take it any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
But..there is an even higher level of bump skiing...off piste skiing and situations where pure PMTS is simply not gonna cut it without mixing in some skills that are normally considered taboo to talk about in PMTS (namely pivoting, but not only that).
I ski a fair amount and in all conditions and I've yet to find a situation where PMTS movements don't work. It sounds like you are relying primarily on the books/dvds for your PMTS training. Some newer info can be found on the PMTS site...some in the PMTS newsletter...and the rest from a PMTS coach (my PMTS skiing leaped forward when I spent a weekend with a PMTS coach). My understanding is that the latest book (hopefully out later this year) will cover the rest of the high lvl stuff.

Again, I want to be clear that I'm not saying you or anyone else should use PMTS. I think you should use whatever works for you. I'm just saying PMTS works for me (if it didn't I'd switch to something else...I take skiing very seriously...in fact you could say its a way of life for me).
post #98 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501
Personally I prefer a carving style to bump skiing rather than the zipperline pivot approach. But that's just me. I enjoy watching a good zipperline skier...I'm always in awe of the foot speed and the ability to give the knees that kind of workout (punishment in my book). Mine just won't take it any longer.
Truth be told, so do I for my own skiing. I still ski the zipper line though. But I work my skis from edge to edge and achieve better speed control which avoids the frantic knee popping you see on TV. I am by no means at their level. There are sometimes some sections where some big extension/flexion is reguired and some friends thought I looked like the guys on TV for a few brief moments, but for me its only in spurts..most of the time I'm making turns through the bumps...but tight turns..tight enough that pivoting is required sometimes...and I'm most definitely smearing speed away.

Quote:
It sounds like you are relying primarily on the books/dvds for your PMTS training. Some newer info can be found on the PMTS site...some in the PMTS newsletter...
yes, this is true.

Well I've been asking questions a lot on realskiers, but to be honest, people are a lot more open minded about PMTS..even PMTS skiers are..over here on epic. I think on HH's forum people are afraid to really speak their opinion, its very difficult to get any kind of extra coaching there.. I've asked a lot of stuff and one or two interesting things came out from HH, but so often he just goes into more justifications about why PMTS is the answer to everything and that is turn off I must say.

Quote:
and the rest from a PMTS coach (my PMTS skiing leaped forward when I spent a weekend with a PMTS coach).
I am actually hoping to spend 1-2 days with a guy that works out of Hood.. I think he is black certified. (Jay?) I'm not interested in being taught by HH himself to be honest. I just have a feeling I will not be happy with that experience.

Quote:
My understanding is that the latest book (hopefully out later this year) will cover the rest of the high lvl stuff.
I will probably get it

Quote:
Again, I want to be clear that I'm not saying you or anyone else should use PMTS. I think you should use whatever works for you. I'm just saying PMTS works for me (if it didn't I'd switch to something else...I take skiing very seriously...in fact you could say its a way of life for me).
You're here amoung similar souls mate!
post #99 of 119
dewdman

why not think about trying to head to italy for a week.... it was cheap - lift tickets were about 150euro for the week... accom and flights (from here) about 350pp... food cheap... lessons 31euro per hour... and you can book 1 hour or 2 or 3 or whatever you want.... Not fancy accom (studio apt) but fine... I think it is about 2-3 euro an hour more for another person in lesson...

you might enjoy the experience - it would be very different to USA.... (then again you may hate it).... personally i found it worth about 4 times more than ESA and it was a LOT less money... 6 hours of lessons with that guy worth a lot to me... I am desperate to work out how I can get back before they close the lifts(not I think - maybe next season)....

If you tell them ahead you can do guided tour stuff in the area - I have heard about a nice climb from StMoritz then ski down to the train station below - heading over the mountain towards Livigno... (in post card I got of Livigno you can see this mountain)
post #100 of 119
I would *LOVE* to spend a week skiing in Italy... I've skied in the Dolomites...and I've visited Italy about 8 times.. its one of my favorite places on planet earth. Unfortunately, a week off of my day job is not going to happen anytime soon. So there it is... Thanks for the suggestion though.. I'll just go make myself another cup of Italian roast now...
post #101 of 119
mr d woulld you say that pmts and psia offer differant views on same subject and that trying differant styles gives you more tools to work with or way to personalize your movements to create your own personal style. or is it ,to you an absolute this way or that?i believe you are just trying to enlarge your knowledge base to become a better skier through an open mind. yes? no?
post #102 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
mr d woulld you say that pmts and psia offer differant views on same subject and that trying differant styles gives you more tools to work with or way to personalize your movements to create your own personal style. or is it ,to you an absolute this way or that?i believe you are just trying to enlarge your knowledge base to become a better skier through an open mind. yes? no?
Is Mr. D me? LOL. Yes. I am seeking all info from any sources which may make me a better skier.

I do not think there is an absolute correct way to ski. I do think there are some things which are absolutely wrong in different situations, but there is more than one way to peel an apple. And unless you're trying to win a WC event, personal style is also a huge factor...even if it starts to become "wrong" by some standards...if it gets you down the hill in control, having fun and you like the way it makes you look...then what the heck...go for it.

Yesterday I was skiing with two pretty good skiers on and off piste. One of them was the director of a small ski school(who I was trying to impress) and the other was a hot skier who just skiis backcountry a lot, hikes to crazy killer lines a lot, etc.. The first part of the day I made all my pretty instructor turns..(the director offered me a job after the first run BTW), but later in the day I just started going for it a little more, skiing steep off-piste lines much more down the fall line, carrying a lot more speed than most ski instructors would in that terrain...it was pretty crudded out and I was airborne a lot...I wasn't really throwing techinque out the window, I still had style points, balance, making turns....but lets just say I wasn't "completing my turns" like most good instructors are obsessed with. I didn't hear what the director had to say about it..but I could imagine in my head him saying something dismissive about it...while the other free skier was giving me tons of kudos for how great I looked. (I knew in my head that I had thrown the ski instructor look out the window once I had my groove on).

Different strokes for different folks..

My quest for knowledge about skiing from many different sources is because my observation is that no one group of people has lock on the market. They all have some good points and weak points. The unfortunate thing is that if you try to get really involved with one of them they tend to want to pull you away from a generalized all-encompassing approach because they THINK they have it all worked out and want you to become one of the fold. But in my experience, they all have some strengths and weaknesses and true top shelf skiing only comes when you get outside that box and take in other concepts. My experience is that most people involved heavily in ski instruction get a little bit 1-2 dimensional in their thought process because they get locked into whatever system they are using. Race coaches seem better to me because they tend to be a bit more results oriented, but they can also get locked into that trap. The best free skiers I know are completely open minded about it(there are pitfalls to that as well since some discipline also helps in the quest for better skiing).

Its usually pretty obvious when something is working or not and if you aren't looking to spot certain tell tale signs that your ski teaching/coaching system has taught you to look for and just looking at a skier to decide if they are hot or not...then its obvious...
post #103 of 119
can do this by taking lessons with instructors from ALL AROUND THE WORLD..... the world is not North America....

there are many teaching and skiing styles.... they all have pluses...

me - I'm liking the austrian system... the aussies that complete it are VERY good to ski with... aussie sense of humour and austrian ski knowledge= fun!

the italians i skied with rock.... get one of their "ski maestro" (Matteo we need help with this I don't understand the system or the term that well)...

French - the french guy i skied with skied just damn fine but was not critical enough for my liking... I was told to cut him slack and think what his average client was like...OK i'll buy that Brits on french holidays give me the irrits too...I suppose you have to "be nice" when dealing with them...

Czech - I like the ones I've known and skied with... fun people

Brits.... well... not excited by the one british instructor i had - but that might be just not the best choice...

Canadians... the higher level ones are good.. the race coach ones are great.....

Aussies.... forget the lower levels... but teh good ones are pretty good... the snowboarders I knwo with full cert are all SUPER guys... telemarkers I know are good too....

there - a heap of systems and no mention of the dreaded P twins
post #104 of 119
You all aught to take a look at the adaptive slant on ski teaching. What works, works, use it. I'll use anything anytime to help a student ski more efficiently, gracefully, and, most importantly, with a smile on their face.
post #105 of 119
i hear all of this 2 p's back and forth and much intensity. it is a big world out there and americans have much to learn from it and it is our loss if we don't
post #106 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square
You all aught to take a look at the adaptive slant on ski teaching. What works, works, use it. I'll use anything anytime to help a student ski more efficiently, gracefully, and, most importantly, with a smile on their face.
mr t .i did a search and it didn't help much can you steer me to more information about this?
post #107 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
i hear all of this 2 p's back and forth and much intensity. it is a big world out there and americans have much to learn from it and it is our loss if we don't
One thing I want to correct here. One would think from a couple posts just now that Americans are only interested in North American ski systems because of some bias towards things invented in america or something.

There is a lot of discussion around here and debating and comparison about the North American systems because that's all we know and we simply don't have access to other information. I have tried looking for information about the Austrian approach and can find ZERO information about it.

This is not a bias..its simply that the majority of people on this forum are from North America and only exposed to North American systems. Also, the P's, USSA and CSIA have gone to great lengths to publish their systems on the internet..anyone can do a little googling and learn a lot about those North American systems, but there is no way to learn about Austrian, Italian or any other system without spending a lot of time with an expert from there, or perhpas if you speak German or Italian there are books written, but I certainly don't know about them and I tried to find stuff, especially Austrian.

Its not on us north americans to get the word out for those other systems. If they don't get their word out there, then they don't get their word out there and its impossible for us to debate about it, learn about it or even consider it.. It has nothing to do with bias. Please...
post #108 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square
You all aught to take a look at the adaptive slant on ski teaching. What works, works, use it. I'll use anything anytime to help a student ski more efficiently, gracefully, and, most importantly, with a smile on their face.

works for me....
but then one of my instructors had a client that he just carted around every year... loved to feel the wind on his face and see the snow....

another spent a whole lesson telling a blind skier(young boy blind from birth) what things "felt" like and what all the noises around the teaching area were.... (we spent a heap of time deciding how to let the kid feel as much as possible of teh stuff(like magic carpets) that he was interested in)...

another got patrol to take a kid with limited life expectancy and poor motor skills on back of skidoo to lookout outside resort to see our countries highest mountain....

for me they "walked" around ski turns pushing on my arm to tell me how much pressure to put on my boot cuff through the turn.....
one even made me sit on his knee - as i am short and he is tall and he was uphill it sure taught me to "lift my hip" (I think they were getting desperate by then as the staatliche had just confessed I had run him out of options to get me to do the moves he wanted...) another had me "pull my pants" sideways in every turn.... i remember those 2 years so clearly... a HEAP of instructors watching out for me out of lessons and messages going back and forth between 2 ski schools (one instructor was a trainer/examiner and sought out other instructors to tell them how to teach me so they would all be consistent)... worked though....
post #109 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
One thing I want to correct here. One would think from a couple posts just now that Americans are only interested in North American ski systems because of some bias towards things invented in america or something.

well - it sort of does you know...

My home ski school most of the instructors teach TWO seasons a year....
check how many PSIA instructors do so....(ask the local ski school)

All the examiners I know in Oz taught 2 seasons... so how many PSIA ones do?

home ski school also has instructors from CSIA, austria, czech republic, italy, switzerland, france, britain, japan,andorra etc come and teach..... it is NOT that big a ski school - this is normal.... the italian I skied with commented on having friends who had gone to australia and the ski school held people from "everywhere".... not kids on j1's or fake H2 visas.... but full certs ... this gives more "mix" to the teaching.... we get austrian B team racers doing the race coaching... etc etc... it makes a "mix of ideas"....leads to exposure...
post #110 of 119
Oh and knowing about the austrians seems common back home.... like I said I have skied with 2 high level aussies who have their full austrian certification.... you think they just up and headed to austria with no idea where they were heading?

oh and thinking about it I think I know at least 1 more maybe 2 with austrian full cert... just i never skied with them...
post #111 of 119
Well you are lucky. I agree its better. We are not unfortunately exposed to it here, but its not really by choice.
post #112 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ
mr t .i did a search and it didn't help much can you steer me to more information about this?
Here you go. I just love this stuff.

http://www.abilityplus.org/brettonwoods.htm Bretton Woods Adaptive, where I teach.

http://www.skiindex.com/world/ Scroll down and click Disabled Skiers. A world of info.

http://www.andyparr.com/ Andy is a friend and just won Bronze and Silver at the paralympics.

http://www.sitski.com/index.htm Check out the monoskier. Great shot!

http://www.paralympic.org.au/ For disski.

http://www.dsusa.org/ Great organization. Really got adaptive skiing going in the US.

Hope this helps.

Being an adaptive instructor has made me a better teacher overall.

Remember, everyone is an adaptive skiier. We all need boots to hold our weak feet, skis to prevent us from sinking in, and steel edges to grip the snow and ice.
post #113 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Well you are lucky. I agree its better. We are not unfortunately exposed to it here, but its not really by choice.

not your choice ...

but some of those "professional" instructors are making a choice to stay home each summer....
(apologies to the Northstar crew some of whom head south every year.... )

I know the canadians don't exactly go home rich from coming down under.... our dollar is too close to monopoly money.... it seems to be viewed as "experience" .... ditto japan, europe, NA for our guys...

sorry - one of my pet peeves ... I ski with mostly those that have worked/skied 2 systems... (at least) .... so I keep trying to get people to travel.... I find them teh better ski instructors....
post #114 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square
Being an adaptive instructor has made me a better teacher overall.

Remember, everyone is an adaptive skiier. We all need boots to hold our weak feet, skis to prevent us from sinking in, and steel edges to grip the snow and ice.

one reason why I prefer our system where the ski school is integrated - just a different qualification available... just like kids or tele cert it is simply another cert in an instructors list... more experience...
I really have a problem with the idea that I must go to a DIFFERENT ski school... I want to learn the same thing to slide on snow in control... why do I need to be segregated? who says so? why? I am not an alien!!!
post #115 of 119
post #116 of 119
and my hero is here...

http://www.michaelmilton.com/
post #117 of 119
2 d's and a t , thank you ,great stuff. so adaptive means doing whatever is necessary to get people on the snow learning and experiencing what we love
post #118 of 119
Garry

don't know if it helps but if any adaptive skier hits Oz they can get registered with Disabled Wintersport Australia and get a 50% discount on lift tickets and lessons...

Some resorts (perisher blue stands out) only give 50% on PRIVATE lessons... but most honour the intent and do 50% on all lessons that are not already discounted (eg in a package of some sort).... (when it was negotiated it was not envisaged to have skiers that would eg want to ski with their friends in regular lessons... but a large number of teh 1 leg kids do just that)

any guide also receives a concession... it may be free tickets... but i don't know as my registration is for NO guide

I know the names at Thredbo and a few others .... the DWA also has a special lodge that is wheel chair accessible at Jindabyne - so can ski Thredbo or Perisher....
post #119 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
...sorry - one of my pet peeves ... I ski with mostly those that have worked/skied 2 systems... (at least) .... so I keep trying to get people to travel.... I find them teh better ski instructors....
One of the reasons I went to a PMTS Camp and am working on my Alpine Level II certification. The more I know, the more varied it is, the better an instructor I hope to become. Its all about continuous improvement.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching