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bottom of turn

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
i am starting my turns well and get almost through whole sequence but i ahve this bad movement foiling my nice turns. i am flattenning my skis just before completion of my turn. i am thinking iam not letting my turn and skis finish their work and am trying to get into next turn before it is time. my tracks are clean til the near end. could it be not letting turn achieve the right roundness , as in trying to shortcut the turn or could it be i am believing turn is ovewr so what the heck ,what can i do to train myself to keep in the groove of the turn so i can finsh there turns how i would like to. should i use more ankle and knee? i think i am relaxing a bit here too
post #2 of 21
Start by posting video. Without it, we're just guessing. General exercises to help develop good turn initiation include the Phantom Turn, Railroad Tracks, One footed turns (including the WhitePass turn) and Cowboy turns.
post #3 of 21

As mentioned, without some video, or at least a pic, it is impossible to say for sure...but I will point this little truth out: "A turn that starts well, ends well".....what you describe is often caused by being too far forward at the end of the turn...which is often caused by the way turns are intiated...

How do you intiate your turns?.....ie: how do you apply pressure to the ski's forebody?
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
on even terrain i lead with the inside ski and lean into it a bit. hold my outside ski very firm and somewhat less so with inside and have been working to keep my balance somewhat foreward, trying to keep pressure on front of ski, maybe i am over working forewards and it should be better to be more evenly balanced
post #5 of 21
Hmmmm...not sure I can help.....but as a general comment, and this is common of advanced skiers trying to make the leap to expert....be careful you are not too far forward at the end of the turn, as it will cause the ski to slip out.

Often skiers get too far forward because they intiate turns by allowing their ankle to collapse and just drive into the boot cuffs to get pressue to the ski tip. This works, but the trade off is, your mass is way to far forward to get back to finish the turns properly. In short to medium size turns this is especially true.

Again, not sure that is you at all...but somthing to check.
post #6 of 21
without video we can't say. You might not be countering. You might be over rotating, might be doing all kinds of things to lose edge grip when the G forces hit some point. The end of the turn is when the G forces are the biggest because your centrifugal forces of the turn are combined with gravity pulling you down the fall line to form the greatest overall amount of force your edges will need to hold you against. There are many reasons why your edges may not be holding there... post video if you can..
post #7 of 21
The video or pictures are important because what you feel may not be what we see. I know when I look at my own videos I see a much different picture than what I felt while making the turns.
post #8 of 21

it should be better to be more evenly balanced

Stay more on the middle of the ski and move more with the ski (forward).

on even terrain i lead with the inside ski and lean into it a bit.

Staying better balanced laterally and reducing tip lead (moving more diagionally into the turn) will also allow you to finish your turn cleanly. Patience in the transition from turn to turn is a virtue when skiing.

post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
thanks ron , i felt this might be so. i know from so much old school skiing i am impatient because on straight skis it was always good to get on with next turn or there might not be one.
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by T-Square
The video or pictures are important because what you feel may not be what we see. I know when I look at my own videos I see a much different picture than what I felt while making the turns.
i am sure this is true. i need to acquire camera for this, good excuse, huh?
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
tip lead was a big deal with longer straight skis isn't it not at all neccessary any more and even footing into a turn will cause it's own lead by itself. or just a more subtle lead?
post #12 of 21
Not sure what you have going on, but many skiers only increase edging into the falline and then go static with edging movements. Then as pressure builds coming out of the falline, what was enough edge up top gets overpowered in bottom of turn. If you are not actively rolling them up, external forces will pull them flat, especially if you are extending upward thru the finish of your turns.

Play with trying to continously roll your feet/skis onto a little more edge coming out of the falline. From max leg length in falline, soften and /or flex legs to both manage pressure and enable you to use feet (leading with inside) to roll skis up onto more edge (seen as more tipping of lower legs). Carry this to the start of the transition where you will then actively tip them over (leading with new inside foot). This should give you a crisper finish.
post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
at the point i should be adding pressure i am letting it go. my skis often do go flat at bottom of turn .i saw the differance in someoneelses skiing and thought i saw much more pressure at bottom than i was using . i will play with this this weekend. thanks all for some help . i am tinkering with this and i think i am very close to getting this. i did get complimented on some of my turns but haven't pleased myself yet.
post #14 of 21
A lot of the time if we are not active enough in the first half of the turn(s) the acceleration is greater than we intended. So as a consequence we are forced to be very active in the second half of the turn(s).
If we work the ski more in the first half of the turn(s), that acceleration is smaller and more managable. By eliminating the root cause we also eliminate the need for the extra work in the second half.
Like ARC suggested work on rolling up onto more edge. If you can do so as you are moving towards the fall line, you will notice less edge is possible near the end of the turn(s).
post #15 of 21
Yep. You could be instinctively rolling off your edges in an effort to reduce the G-forces. As you roll off the edges, your skis slip sideways, which takes some of the pressure off your legs. Just a guess... My reccomendation is that you need to EMBRACE the pressure and G-forces rather than trying to run away from them.

I will liken this concept to racing dirt bikes, something I used to do a lot. On a dirt bike (or mountain bike), when you hit a corner you need to put a lot of weight on the front tire. On our dirt bikes we would hit the corner with our head well over the front of the handlebars. Exagerated weighting of the front wheel. At first this seems counter-intuitive because your brain is saying..wait..if I throw all my weight onto that front wheel...won't that make the front wheel slide out? I don't want it to slide out..I want it to stick and make the turn in the mud or whatever I'm in. So at some level, the brain instinctively wants to back off the pressure there...essentially try to hold back the front wheel from sliding sideways.

But in this case that is wrong instinct. First of all you can't hold it back. Second of all, if you want to make the tire hold the turn, even in the slick mud..you have to get as much downward weight on the tire as you can. Essentially you have all the momentum coming from the direction you are going...and then you're turning..which causes lots of centrifigal force momentum to want to slide the tire sideways..but by getting your head and shoulders over the top of the handlebars, you add a direct downward gravity force that pulls the tire down into the dirt, gives it more friction, hopefully enough to overtake the centrifigal forces that want to make the tire slide side ways.

Translate this all to skiing.... Its exactly the same thing. As you hit that part of the turn..near the bottom...the forces trying to pull your skis sideways are reaching their maximum. You want to do things that will cause your ski edge to push harder DOWNWARD into the snow. If the downward pressure is enough then it will exceed the centrifigal force that is trying to pull your ski sideways in a slip. So you do this not only be keeping your edges on edge, but also by positioning your body in such a way that your body weight and forces will be transmitted as much as possible directly down into the snow instead of sideways.

This is analogous to the head over handlebars on a dirt bike. When you hit that part of the turn... you should be angulated, which places your CM further out over your skis(instead of towards the middle of the turn). A little counter will help you to use large muscle groups to do this also. Essentially, angulation and counter are the secret ingredients to getting your CM further outside the radius of the turn (like head forward of the handlebars) which will help make your edges operate more efficiently.

Hold that outside leg extended just a little longer, don't let it flex until you're ready to transition into new turn. EMBRACE THE PRESSURE. Keep angulated and countered, feel like you're purposefully putting your CM closer to the outside of the turn to get over the skis and push them DOWN into the snow. Stand on your outside ski much more so than your inside ski. Your edging will dramatically improve.

By the way, all of what I just expounded on can be found in much better detail in Ron LeMaster's book which I highly reccomend.
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
thanks. i can feel this but wasn't sure what to do about it.you said, jasp , that this can control acceleration , maybe because the turn has better shape and is rounded and has more distance to travel?i do want to control acceleration when i feel it is necessary. i think acceleration has alot to do with this .you want to bleed speed in steeper terrain but want to keep turn shape and forces under control by choice not happenstance
post #17 of 21
Because you are working the ski earlier in the turn, it is not free to accelerate as quickly. Less acceleration equals less need for braking in the second half of the turn.
Additionally, you are entering the second half of the turn with edge and pressure already established so it is easier to manage what the skis are doing.
post #18 of 21
One common theme I see in skiers that have trouble finishing their turn is that they use up their range of motion too early. Try keeping your legs longer further into the turn by slowing down your "relaxing of the leg(s)". Slowing down your movements will let the skis work longer. Massage and ride the pressure of the engaged ski longer into the turn. Also, pay attention to how the hips and core move into the turn. Keep it more on the diagonal into the turn as opposed to a big early move lateraly into the turn. This will keep better alignment over the skis and maybe allow the lower body to continue working longer into the turn. Just general ideas. Later, RicB.
post #19 of 21
Good point Ric, the progressive actions in the first half of the turn create the "working" I was talking about. It takes a little discipline to perform ski turns this way.
post #20 of 21
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Good point Ric, the progressive actions in the first half of the turn create the "working" I was talking about. It takes a little discipline to perform ski turns this way.
Interesting that you used the word discipline JASP, because I find myself using the word discipline more and more. Hopefully getting across that we do need to be attentive and concious of our movements and that we need to control them in order to change them. People seem to understand this and actually embrace the idea.

Yeah, I knew what you were talking about, and totaly agree. Hard to be specific with so little information, so I opted for general.

Discipline is what I need in the bar after skiing when I have to make my 2 glasses of wine last the duration of my stay. Progressive drinking? Later, Ricb.
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
ricb and jasp. thks i worked on this alot this weekend and feel much better, keys were the control of acceleration and moving diagonally into the turn instead of too much lateral, that kept my balance more to where i was going and not to where i already went, i am not new to skiing but want to learn this as it is supposed to be done.keeping pressure with my ankles ands knees inthe bottom third of turn building to a crecendo of forces made the transition much crisper and kept me from straying and i was ready for new turn instantly. funny how letting this happen on its own makes so much of a differance. i don't rush to anthing but can go any speed and turn the radius of my choosing. i was very much trying too much to make things happen instead of setting myself up to let it happen. much differant philosophy but i see it works very well.
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