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What to do with lactic build up in calves?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Getting pain in the area of the calves similar to the fatique one might get if standing on tip toes for a long period of time. I will ski for a stretch and have to stop to let the lactic acid in the muslces go down. Any thoughts why and what to do to improve the legs for skiing?

Joesixpack
post #2 of 25
From what I've experienced and read, calf pain is caused from skiing in the back seat. Get more forward in your stance, and you won't have to worry about it (at least in your calves anyway).

But then you need quad strength. There are lots of posts about building the proper leg muscles - try some searching. One quick tip: squats while standing on something unstable like a cheap inflatable exercise disk. This will build muscles and help your balance at the same time.
post #3 of 25
Take sportlegs vitamins. I took them the first few days out this year, they seemed to help with burning and soreness.
post #4 of 25
Cal/mag/zinc a multi vitamin that you can get at your local drug store or supermarket. a 100 pills cost you about $8.00 where teh same anout from Sportlegs costs you about $20.00. I have tried both and results are about the same. But your results may vary.
post #5 of 25
Many studies have been done on the subject of Lactic Acid build up.
The one that I refer to when ever I have that problem is ' my damn legs hurt it's time for a beer'
post #6 of 25
I'll second Sportlegs,technique improvement, and Skins. I use them all and if there are more, what the hell, might try them too. I need all the help that I can get. These 3 help!!!!! IMHO
post #7 of 25
Get a bike with a clipless setup and hours of LT intervals .. Seriously though, its interesting that your calves are building up lactic acid. They dont really move that much during skiing do they? My burn happens right at the bottom of the quads..
post #8 of 25
Workout more. 400 to 600 squats every other day. Also calf raises and road work would help. The problem is conditioning.

Mark
post #9 of 25
We were doing some exaggerated up movements today, and we skiied a portion of a run pretty much on tip toe, and my calfs (and achilles) were screaming. Do you try to ski on the balls of your feet? That'd do it.
post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by eblackwelder
From what I've experienced and read, calf pain is caused from skiing in the back seat. Get more forward in your stance, and you won't have to worry about it (at least in your calves anyway).
Nope, then it'll be in your thighs .

Quote:
Originally Posted by eblackwelder
But then you need quad strength. There are lots of posts about building the proper leg muscles - try some searching.
Yup, you need to use and build up those quads. The vitamin recommendation sounds great, I'm going to give it a try too.
post #11 of 25
For your calfs and quads ,try doing 'Siff Squats'
Normal squat range of motion except you will hold the barbell above your headand you will be on your toes thru the whole movement.
This will work your calfs,quads,core,balance ,shoulders and burn lottsa calories .
Don't do them instead of regular squats but add them in a few times a week
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog
Workout more. 400 to 600 squats every other day. Also calf raises and road work would help. The problem is conditioning.

Mark
About 10 years ago I was on that routine of doing 500 body weight squats 4-5 days a week.
It is amazing the feeling you get just after a few weeks.
post #13 of 25
The main problem here I think is that your calves need more conditioning. Try doing 3 sets 3 times a week of calf raises, no need for any weights, a step is all you need, make sure you fully extend with each repetition (the stretch is crucial). Max out each set to failure. You can also supplement your work out with seated calf raises but in this scenario will require that you have some sort of weights or appratus. To do at home, get an assistant to sit on your lap close to your knees and do the raises, if you can throw something under the balls of your feet while you do this to give better range of motion and stretch all the better.

You might also want to get your boot fitment checked, your boots might not be holding well enough at the heel and or the ramp of your inner soles may be off, you might need custom footbeds.

A natural supplements that helps muscle soreness is vitamin C, I recommend ester C with bioflavinoids. I take 6000mg a day, seems excessive, but its not, the more stress you put your body through the more nutrients you need. As long as you are not getting acid reflux, diarreaha or cramping then the C dosage is OK. Most bodybuilders mega dose on vitamin C.

A method to get rid of lactic acid after activity, is to cycle, the pros all do it between and after runs.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy
A natural supplements that helps muscle soreness is vitamin C, I recommend ester C with bioflavinoids. I take 6000mg a day, seems excessive, but its not, the more stress you put your body through the more nutrients you need. As long as you are not getting acid reflux, diarreaha or cramping then the C dosage is OK. Most bodybuilders mega dose on vitamin C.
.
ummm not quite...
I have heard tell there was one otherwise healthy young woman in oz who died very suddenly.... autopsy .... kidney failure due to oxalate crystals growing THROUGH kidney..... she was following the directions of someone who told her 10g Vit C a day and you won't die of cancer - well she didn't!
post #15 of 25
I'm really surprised that no one else has mentioned alignment issues yet in this thread. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw the question. I've rarely run into people who complain about the calves when skiing (even my wife who doesn't exercise all that much and only gets out on the mountain a handful of times each season).

Hopefully you have access to someone who can correctly evaluate your fore/aft boot balancing position when ON your skis. There are quite a few variables involved so it's important to get an assessment from a professional.
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ummm not quite...
I have heard tell there was one otherwise healthy young woman in oz who died very suddenly.... autopsy .... kidney failure due to oxalate crystals growing THROUGH kidney..... she was following the directions of someone who told her 10g Vit C a day and you won't die of cancer - well she didn't!
Not to get off the topic here but, oxalate crystals, or more correctly calcium oxalate crystals have to do with the retention of calciumand oxalates and forming kidney stones. Vitamin C does increase the body's production of oxalates however studies have shown that in practice vitamin C does not promote stones and is actually used to reduce the oxalate crystals by binding to the calcium thereby reducing it in the free form which is the form necessary to form stones / crystals.

Ref:
Cheraskin, Ringsdorf Jr., and Sisley: The Vitamin C Connection, Harper and Row, 1983

Pauling, Linus "Are Kidney Stones Associated with Vitamin C Intake?" Today's Living, September, 1981
Pauling, Linus "Crystals in the Kidney," Linus Pauling Institute Newsletter, 1:11, Spring, 1981 Pauling, Linus How to Live Longer and Feel Better, Freeman, 1986
post #17 of 25

Boot or Backseat Issue

I would be surprised if your issue is lactic acid buildup. I have been into long distance running for a few years now so I know what lactic acid buildup feels like. Even when I started running it took a pretty good workout to get it going.

I have a tendency to ski hard when I am out for the day (level 7-8), and I cannot see how you could get lactic acid buildup in your calves from skiing. It just doesn't work your calves that hard. The quads are another matter.

I suspect you are are dealing with a boot issue (poor fit, buckled too tight, alignment, etc) or, like a good portion of skiers on the hill, you are in the backseat
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by joesixpack
I will ski for a stretch and have to stop to let the lactic acid in the muslces go down.
Joe6pack, when you stop do you keep your boots on?
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski-Dad
I would be surprised if your issue is lactic acid buildup. I have been into long distance running for a few years now so I know what lactic acid buildup feels like. Even when I started running it took a pretty good workout to get it going.

I have a tendency to ski hard when I am out for the day (level 7-8), and I cannot see how you could get lactic acid buildup in your calves from skiing. It just doesn't work your calves that hard. The quads are another matter.

I suspect you are are dealing with a boot issue (poor fit, buckled too tight, alignment, etc) or, like a good portion of skiers on the hill, you are in the backseat
I would think that skiing in the backseat would promote shin soreness since this area is where the muscles primarily responsible for foot flexion are located. In order to promote calf soreness due to stance he would actually have to skiing too far forawrd; not putting enough pressure on his heel...imbalance. Maybe he walks / skis on his toes. Probably a boot issue.

If I wear my boots too tight, I too get sharp calf pain..try loosening up the boot and see if it makes a difference, dont go crazy tightening the power / booster strap.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy
I would think that skiing in the backseat would promote shin soreness since this area is where the muscles primarily responsible for foot flexion are located. In order to promote calf soreness due to stance he would actually have to skiing too far forawrd; not putting enough pressure on his heel...imbalance. Maybe he walks / skis on his toes. Probably a boot issue.
From my experience, I would definately say that skiing in the back seat can promote calf soreness. I had been skiing for 15 years in the northeast on groomers and never had issues with my calves. Then I skied Vail, all off-piste, mostly crud and some pow. I was very off balance as I learned to ski this very different terrain. My calves were killing after day 1, and I had 3 days to go. It took me too long to realize that I was completely in the back seat.

I haven't experienced that issue again (including more trips out west) until 2 weeks ago when I skied many runs on one ski (I was bored skiing slow while teaching my kids to ski, so decided to work on my balance). The calves were sore that night. Yup, you guessed it, I was in the backseat to compensate for being off balance again.
post #21 of 25
you might just want to try updating your research... by maybe 20 years or so...
[quote]1: J Nutr. 2005 Jul;135(7):1673-7.Related Articles, Links

Ascorbate increases human oxaluria and kidney stone risk.

Massey LK, Liebman M, Kynast-Gales SA.

Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, Washington State University, Spokane, WA, USA. massey@wsu.edu

..... The 1000 mg AA twice each day increased urinary oxalate and TRI for calcium oxalate kidney stones in 40% of participants, both stoneformers and non-stoneformers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy
Not to get off the topic here but, oxalate crystals, or more correctly calcium oxalate crystals have to do with the retention of calciumand oxalates and forming kidney stones. Vitamin C does increase the body's production of oxalates however studies have shown that in practice vitamin C does not promote stones and is actually used to reduce the oxalate crystals by binding to the calcium thereby reducing it in the free form which is the form necessary to form stones / crystals.

Ref:
Cheraskin, Ringsdorf Jr., and Sisley: The Vitamin C Connection, Harper and Row, 1983

Pauling, Linus "Are Kidney Stones Associated with Vitamin C Intake?" Today's Living, September, 1981
Pauling, Linus "Crystals in the Kidney," Linus Pauling Institute Newsletter, 1:11, Spring, 1981 Pauling, Linus How to Live Longer and Feel


you Better
, Freeman, 1986
post #22 of 25
and this one

1: Eur J Clin Invest. 1998 Sep;28(9):695-700.Related Articles, Links

Relative hyperoxaluria, crystalluria and haematuria after megadose ingestion of vitamin C.

Auer BL, Auer D, Rodgers AL.

Department of Chemistry, University of Cape Town, South Africa.

BACKGROUND: Long-term or high-dosage consumption of vitamin C may play a role in calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. The present study was undertaken to determine the biochemical and physicochemical risk factors in a male subject who developed haematuria and calcium oxalate crystalluria after ingestion of large doses of ascorbic acid for 8 consecutive days. METHODS: Twenty-four-hour urine samples were collected before and during the ascorbic acid ingestion period as well as after the detection of haematuria. A special procedure was implemented for urine collections to allow for oxalate, ascorbate and other urinalysis. Oxalate was determined in the presence of EDTA to prevent in vitro conversion to ascorbic acid, whereas ascorbate itself was determined by manual titration in a redox method using the dye dichlorophenolindophenol. Urinalysis data were used to compute calcium oxalate relative supersaturations and Tiselius risk indices, whereas scanning electron microscopy was used to examine urinary deposits. RESULTS: Oxalate excretion increased by about 350% during ascorbate ingestion before haematuria. Ascorbate concentrations also increased dramatically but appeared to reach a plateau maximum. Increasing calcium excretion was accompanied by decreasing potassium and phosphate values. The calcium oxalate relative supersaturation and Tiselius risk index increased during vitamin C ingestion and large aggregates of calcium oxalate dihydrate crystals were observed by scanning electron microscopy immediately after the detection of haematuria. CONCLUSION: High percentage metabolic conversion of ascorbate to oxalate in this subject caused relative hyperoxaluria and crystalluria, the latter manifesting itself as haematuria. Clinicians need to be alerted to the potential dangers of large dose ingestion of vitamin C in some individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
We were doing some exaggerated up movements today, and we skiied a portion of a run pretty much on tip toe, and my calfs (and achilles) were screaming. Do you try to ski on the balls of your feet? That'd do it.
And pushing on the balls of your feet can land you in the back seat too....
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by eblackwelder
From my experience, I would definately say that skiing in the back seat can promote calf soreness. I had been skiing for 15 years in the northeast on groomers and never had issues with my calves. Then I skied Vail, all off-piste, mostly crud and some pow. I was very off balance as I learned to ski this very different terrain. My calves were killing after day 1, and I had 3 days to go. It took me too long to realize that I was completely in the back seat.

I haven't experienced that issue again (including more trips out west) until 2 weeks ago when I skied many runs on one ski (I was bored skiing slow while teaching my kids to ski, so decided to work on my balance). The calves were sore that night. Yup, you guessed it, I was in the backseat to compensate for being off balance again.
After thinking about it for a while I can see your point. I have found myself in similar circumstances and the soreness as described. I usually consider skiing in the back seat (perhaps erroneously) to be literally skiing with your weight shifted to the back of the skis, but I can see the term also used to refer to not being 100% in control, thus taking a back seat to what the ski "wants" to do rather than you willing it to do. Admittedly I am not a very good powder or crud skier and when faced with such conditions I find myself in the back seat in both senses of the term...give me the hardpack and ice.
post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
CONCLUSION: High percentage metabolic conversion of ascorbate to oxalate in this subject caused relative hyperoxaluria and crystalluria, the latter manifesting itself as haematuria. Clinicians need to be alerted to the potential dangers of large dose ingestion of vitamin C in some individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=9767367&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
We can debate this till we are blue in the face, even the experts dont agree, but as with anything your results may vary. I have personally consumed 6g of vitamin C both in regualr and much more bioavailable Ester-C form for the past 10years and have never had any issues. Most of my bodybuilding friends do the same. I do know a young girl who did get kidney stones, but she happens to be a meek and sickly type and I dont know all the details as to why she has a propensity for kidney stones. Her physician thinks it had more to do with her ultra high intake of protein than anything else. But let me digress, this is an ongoing debate and I doubt either you or I are going to resolve it, but I will leave you with this that I found:
  • Side Effects of Vitamin C
Jerry Rivers of Cornell University (now with the Graduate Division of Nutrition, University of Texas) presented a paper to the Third Conference on Vitamin C entitled "Safety of High-Level Vitamin C Ingestion" where he investigated the potential safety aspects of C mentioned above. I quote the conclusion: "An attempt has been made in this review to select papers that represent opposing views and to present a critical non biased interpretation of the results. This has led to the conclusion that the practice of ingesting large quantities of ascorbic acid will not result in calcium-oxalate stones, increased uric acid excretion, impaired B12 status, iron overload, systemic conditioning, or increased mutagenic activity in healthy individuals." Dr. Klenner discusses his experience with the dangers of massive amounts of vitamin C in his paper. When Klenner says massive, he means it! He gave individuals intravenous vitamin C treatments of one hundred grams or more per day. Cathcart discusses the relationship between high-dose C and kidney stones in his article "Why Don't Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones?".

A study examining the link between vitamin C intake and kidney stone formationpublished in J Urol, 1996 Jun, 155:6, 1847-51 states:

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