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Longer skis as weightlifting and conditoning?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I recently demo skied a long GS ski in short turns as part of a PSIA clinic, and found my legs very tired at the bottom. Of course I did much better when I put the ski to its intended use, but afterward a thought came to me. When I skied the short turns I felt as though I had lifted weights. My thought was that doing the same thing intentionally might work as a conditioning technique. Of course, there is a danger that form might go away if I use a longer ski for conditioning, but, assuming I keep form, would using a long heavy ski in short turns be a good conditioning technique, and if not, why not?
post #2 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
I recently demo skied a long GS ski in short turns as part of a PSIA clinic, and found my legs very tired at the bottom. Of course I did much better when I put the ski to its intended use, but afterward a thought came to me. When I skied the short turns I felt as though I had lifted weights. My thought was that doing the same thing intentionally might work as a conditioning technique. Of course, there is a danger that form might go away if I use a longer ski for conditioning, but, assuming I keep form, would using a long heavy ski in short turns be a good conditioning technique, and if not, why not?
not a good idea...you'll revert to much old-school form such as lifting the inside leg and really scrubbing your turns more.
frankly, you'll get much better conditioning by simply doing leg-extensions on the lift (i Cannot stress the efficacy of this tidbit, enough), and squats in the parking lot, in your ski boots or street shoes, with your skiis over your shoulders. much better workout, by far.
try to avoid the peculiarly-21st century obsession with multi-tasking.
use your skiing time for skiing, and your 'conditioning' time for conditioning.
when you try to do two things at once, neither activity gets 100%
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
not a good idea...you'll revert to much old-school form such as lifting the inside leg and really scrubbing your turns more.
frankly, you'll get much better conditioning by simply doing leg-extensions on the lift (i Cannot stress the efficacy of this tidbit, enough), and squats in the parking lot, in your ski boots or street shoes, with your skiis over your shoulders. much better workout, by far.
try to avoid the peculiarly-21st century obsession with multi-tasking.
use your skiing time for skiing, and your 'conditioning' time for conditioning.
when you try to do two things at once, neither activity gets 100%
I wasn't looking to multi-task, but rather for specificty of the actions. I also said that the exercise was dependent on maintaining form. No matter how many large muscle group activities you do like squats, the smaller muscle groups seem to get omitted.
post #4 of 24
Quote:
frankly, you'll get much better conditioning by simply doing leg-extensions on the lift


Leg extensions have been proven to have a direct link to ACL tears because of the sheering forces they put on the knee. Practicing leg extensions on the lift is dangerous advice. Anyone who is at all current in sports medicine is aware of the fact that open chain exercises are rarely used nowadays, since closed chain exercises are safer, more efficient and effective.
post #5 of 24

to digress

a little more info on shearing, extensions, and footnotes


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Leg extensions have been proven to have a direct link to ACL tears because of the sheering forces they put on the knee.
DIRECT link? I'd really be curious to see something proving leg extensions cause ACL tears.

In the meantime, OKCE/CKCE:

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/kneeinj.htm

"Some of the therapists tend to agree that open kinetic chain exercise (OKCE) benefits the ACL the best. While some therapist believe that closed kinetic chain exercise (CKCE) are superior to OKCE."

Always get a second opinion.
post #6 of 24
You could get the same effect (increased g-force) by just making the GS turns at DH speeds. It would be more fun too.
post #7 of 24
i'm wondering now if i could pile magnets onto my tanker chubbs and drive 'em through sierra cement for a real workout.
post #8 of 24
Try putting 100 high energy short radius turns together on any slope with any ski.

Burn baby Burn!

;-))
post #9 of 24
Dr. Yessis is one of the most respected people in sports medicine. Check out number 8:
http://www.dryessis.com/modules.php?...=article&sid=2

Scroll down to Alternative Methods of Squatting and see what Dr. Fred Hatfield has to say about leg extensions:

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/squat2.htm

And more:

http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/knees.htm
Quote:
Briefly, when you sit on the leg extension machine, and load your foot with weight, you create tremendous shearing forces on your knee. As you raise and lower the weight, you pull your knee cap against the rest of the joint as tightly as is physically possible, grinding away at the cartilage. One rep is no problem. A few sets? No biggie. Years of using this ridiculous contraption will add up to an arthritic disaster.
Furthermore, if many ski injuries, as well as poor form in skiing is related to a hamstring/quad muscle imbalance, why would anyone want to do an exercise that excessively isolates the quadriceps? :
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Furthermore, if many ski injuries, as well as poor form in skiing is related to a hamstring/quad muscle imbalance, why would anyone want to do an exercise that excessively isolates the quadriceps? :
to strengthen it.

i guess there could be a problem if all one did was leg extensions and ignored complementing muscles, but who's talking about doing that.

re: #8...

"8. Leg (knee) extensions. Leg extensions are one of the most popular exercises for strengthening the quadriceps femoris muscle, however, doing leg extensions when the thigh is immobilized on the seat of a bench is potentially dangerous because of the pressure built up in the knee joint. When only the shin is in motion, the forces multiply greatly in the knee joint. When both the thigh and shin are free to move as in the squat or when doing the exercise with rubber tubing as in the Active Cords set, the pressure is less, making the exercise much safer. When you are locked into a seated position and then straighten the leg, the internal forces are so great that damage can occur to the connective tissue and especially the ligaments supporting the knee joint. For greater safety, and equal effectiveness, do the squat or knee extensions with Active Cords."

Seems to say the same thing as much of the info in the link i posted. And definitely does not say extensions cause ACL tears. At any rate, it seems pretty obvious there are differing schools of thought.

I work in law; I have plenty of practice finding info to rebut someone else's info. In this case, I'm not going to trade sources as, one, I'm not arguing; I'm pointing out this is not a black and white issue and there are differing opinions, all based on research, from qualified sources, particularly as neither of us is an expert, or close to it.

http://www.aclsolutions.com/rehab_1.php

"Regaining the strength in your quadriceps muscles can be difficult, because your knee may hurt quite a bit in the first few weeks after your injury. Some common exercises that orthopedic surgeons and physical therapists usually recommend are knee extensions, quad sets, heel slides, and straight leg raises. These exercises are performed in the following manner:

Knee extensions and quad sets --To perform these two exercises, place the heel of your injured leg on an object that is a few inches thick (like a phone book). Gradually relax and let your leg come to full extension. This first part of the exercise helps you to maintain a normal range of motion.
After your knee has stretched out for a while, perform a set of ten quadriceps contractions with your leg in the same position. Without lifting your heel up in the air, tighten your quadriceps muscle as hard as you can for ten seconds. Then relax for ten seconds before tightening your muscle again. Repeat this ten times. This exercise helps you to maintain quadriceps strength."

This could go on but we're already light-years away from the innocuous act of extending one's leg (with ski and boot) on a chairlift.
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Leg extensions have been proven to have a direct link to ACL tears because of the sheering forces they put on the knee. Practicing leg extensions on the lift is dangerous advice. Anyone who is at all current in sports medicine is aware of the fact that open chain exercises are rarely used nowadays, since closed chain exercises are safer, more efficient and effective.
Lisa Marie, you are dead-wrong.
leg extensions preformed while seated on a chairlift, using the weight of the skis, are not only safe, but they protect the knees by working peripheral secondary groups, and are suggested by us ski team orthopedes...
Keep your opinions where they belong, esp. when you accuse me of doling out dangerous advice.
to say that "open-chain exercises are rarely used nowadays" is nebulously ignorant and baseless.... please visit some weltcup pros and tell them that.
or olympians, or ball-players, or skaters, or wrestlers, or decathletes, or bodybuilders, etc. etc. etc......
unreal the BS that gets posted here......
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan
a little more info on shearing, extensions, and footnotes




DIRECT link? I'd really be curious to see something proving leg extensions cause ACL tears.

In the meantime, OKCE/CKCE:

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/kneeinj.htm

"Some of the therapists tend to agree that open kinetic chain exercise (OKCE) benefits the ACL the best. While some therapist believe that closed kinetic chain exercise (CKCE) are superior to OKCE."

Always get a second opinion.
thank YOU!

some follks "once read something somewhere" and remember only the buzz-phrases (open-chain, closed chain) and thus purport to be experts.
dangerous, half an eductaion is.....
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
You could get the same effect (increased g-force) by just making the GS turns at DH speeds. It would be more fun too.
and you'd run the risk of blowing out your knees, through the greater medialateral centripetal and centrifugal forces, exponentially.
slllooooowww, long runs build muscle better.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Dr. Yessis is one of the most respected people in sports medicine. Check out number 8:
http://www.dryessis.com/modules.php?...=article&sid=2

Scroll down to Alternative Methods of Squatting and see what Dr. Fred Hatfield has to say about leg extensions:

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/squat2.htm

And more:

http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/knees.htm


Furthermore, if many ski injuries, as well as poor form in skiing is related to a hamstring/quad muscle imbalance, why would anyone want to do an exercise that excessively isolates the quadriceps? :
first, i9've never heard of the guy:
secondly, and more importantly, he's describing using a leg-extension machine,w hich tilts the femur upward, and starts the movement at an acute angle, unlike chairlift extensions.
half an education, again....
and who the hell is "timinvermont,com"???? what, exactly is your great doctor actually promoting?
scary misinfo, there, kid.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Dr. Yessis is one of the most respected people in sports medicine. Check out number 8:
http://www.dryessis.com/modules.php?...=article&sid=2

Scroll down to Alternative Methods of Squatting and see what Dr. Fred Hatfield has to say about leg extensions:

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/squat2.htm

And more:

http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/knees.htm


Furthermore, if many ski injuries, as well as poor form in skiing is related to a hamstring/quad muscle imbalance, why would anyone want to do an exercise that excessively isolates the quadriceps? :
lisamarie: your doctor is referring to an apparatus which, I, too, avoid and think poorly of.
You attempted to apply that lopgic against what i was suggesting.
try to avoid shortcuts to understanding.
Further: leg extensions are mor eimportant to the skier because the actual activity of skiing wokrs and builds the hamstrings more than it doe sthe quads, which is why we tend to feel more burn in the quads, as the weaker group gets tired first.
further, strong quads, with the lower tie-ins better developed, protect the knee excellently, for obvious reasons.
If i come off a little curt, it's because you accused me of doling out dangerous advice,
and yoiu did so only through your ignorance of the biomechanical difference in attitude between using a leg-extension machine and
performing leg extensions on a chairlift.
that's how misinfo gets generated by good websites.
that's the only dangerous thing to have surfaced, here.
post #16 of 24
Shearing forces are shearing forces, no matter what position they are executed from. Your promotion of leg extension on the chair lift would exert the same sort of forces. You accuse me of quoting "something I heard on the web."

With over 30 years in the fitness industry, a couple of hundred dollars spent annually on professional fitness research sites, and a few thousand dollars each year spent on attending conferences to listen to updated information, I am hardly quoting "something I heard on the web.":

However, since you have ordained yourself as the ski fitness expert, the skiing expert, the boot fitting expert, the resort expert and the expert about everything in life, I see no further need for my humble comments on this topic. In fact since you have arrived, I see no further need to participate on Epicski whatsoever, so this is my final post. Every intelligent conversation that has happened on epic has been ruined by your know it all jibberish. Not only is it predictable, it's just so boring.

I used to be able to just ignore it, but now that you are claiming to be an expert and posting irresponsible advice that will set people up for very serious injuries, I can no longer look the other way. My only choice is to not be here at all. No need to comment, since I will not reply, nor will I bother to read this. As some may know, I've recently discovered that there is a small possiblity that my life my be shorter than I expected. In the case that this is true, I do not wish to spend my final days seeing a community I once loved being destroyed by the ramblings of Jonestown type pseudo-guru!

Please spare me the cliches, such as don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm sure I won't be missed. After all, I'm sure that forum members are looking forward to reading your beautifully written posts, free of all spelling and gramatical errors, along with your ee cummings use of the perpetual lower case.

Fare Thee Well!
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Shearing forces are shearing forces, no matter what position they are executed from. Your promotion of leg extension on the chair lift would exert the same sort of forces. You accuse me of quoting "something I heard on the web."

With over 30 years in the fitness industry, a couple of hundred dollars spent annually on professional fitness research sites, and a few thousand dollars each year spent on attending conferences to listen to updated information, I am hardly quoting "something I heard on the web.":

However, since you have ordained yourself as the ski fitness expert, the skiing expert, the boot fitting expert, the resort expert and the expert about everything in life, I see no further need for my humble comments on this topic. In fact since you have arrived, I see no further need to participate on Epicski whatsoever, so this is my final post. Every intelligent conversation that has happened on epic has been ruined by your know it all jibberish. Not only is it predictable, it's just so boring.

I used to be able to just ignore it, but now that you are claiming to be an expert and posting irresponsible advice that will set people up for very serious injuries, I can no longer look the other way. My only choice is to not be here at all. No need to comment, since I will not reply, nor will I bother to read this. As some may know, I've recently discovered that there is a small possiblity that my life my be shorter than I expected. In the case that this is true, I do not wish to spend my final days seeing a community I once loved being destroyed by the ramblings of Jonestown type pseudo-guru!

Please spare me the cliches, such as don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm sure I won't be missed. After all, I'm sure that forum members are looking forward to reading your beautifully written posts, free of all spelling and gramatical errors, along with your ee cummings use of the perpetual lower case.

Fare Thee Well!
oh, my.
first: lower case is de rigeur on the 'net.
ee cummings was a hack with a gimmick...they seem to be popular with you.(smileycon)
thirdly, the angle of the upper and lower leg whilst seated on a chairlift, is rarely less than 90o. further, on a chairlift, the knees are NOT higher than the waits, as they often are on the upwardly-tilted leg extension apparatus. the legt-extension apparatus starts with the leg angle more acute than 90 o, which is where the 'shearing forces, by anti-virtue of the patella 'pulling ' up and out when the leg is at an acute angle, occurs. this is why we teach folks who squat to go only to a 90o angle in the legs, so as not to created a situation whereby 'shearing forces' exert themselves on the various support vectors of the knee.
seated position, in a chairlift, going from 90o to 180o, virtually no so-described (: ) 'shearing forces'.
this is why this move is promoted by so many ski trainers, as it only serves to strengthen the patellar support tissues. try it, and you'll see what i mean. night and day difference form the leg-extension apparatus.

or, you can ignore the actual experience of performing the exercise, and the advice of many ski trainers and othopaedic surgeons and sports physicians, and follow your own personal guru. that's your own choice. i didn't profess to be a fitness expert, i merely passed along what was passed on to me by past us ski team orthopedes, weltcup ski coaches, many weltcup athletes, and trainers.
i've never discussed my own background in exercise kinesiology, which is merely in-the-flesh practice of advice passed on to me by these characters, and by a summer, in '83, spent living in venice, california, and working out daily with tom platz (former mr. olympia), bartering training from dr. franco colombo (past mr. olympia, then master chiropractor, and movie actor, and co-star of
'pumping iron'). i was a physical fitness freak who moved to venice after a cold, long winter of teaching, and i wanted to train at the meccas: namely, "the Pen" on muscle beach, and the original Gold's on hampton.
I met dr. colombo on the beach, and, after a few chats, got a job helping him restore a classic motorcycle, in return for free training.
good guy, for a sardinian ( )
not sure why you're being so thin-skinned, lisa-marie. you accused me of doling out 'dangerous' advice. that was more than just a bit offensive, as as well as erroneous.
maybe questioning my advice would have been more social than just dismissing my thoughtfullly -shared advice as 'dangerous'.
If you can't handle being called to task on your own attacks on the helpful advice of others, maybe you don't really belong on an internet forum.
thanks for trying to rally the troops at me, though.

lighten up, francis- it's not like someone jokingly accused you of killing a family friend.
it's only skiing, and the internet.
wake up and smell the open exchange of intelligent ideas.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
Shearing forces are shearing forces, no matter what position they are executed from. Your promotion of leg extension on the chair lift would exert the same sort of forces. You accuse me of quoting "something I heard on the web."

With over 30 years in the fitness industry, a couple of hundred dollars spent annually on professional fitness research sites, and a few thousand dollars each year spent on attending conferences to listen to updated information, I am hardly quoting "something I heard on the web.":

However, since you have ordained yourself as the ski fitness expert, the skiing expert, the boot fitting expert, the resort expert and the expert about everything in life, I see no further need for my humble comments on this topic. In fact since you have arrived, I see no further need to participate on Epicski whatsoever, so this is my final post. Every intelligent conversation that has happened on epic has been ruined by your know it all jibberish. Not only is it predictable, it's just so boring.

I used to be able to just ignore it, but now that you are claiming to be an expert and posting irresponsible advice that will set people up for very serious injuries, I can no longer look the other way. My only choice is to not be here at all. No need to comment, since I will not reply, nor will I bother to read this. As some may know, I've recently discovered that there is a small possiblity that my life my be shorter than I expected. In the case that this is true, I do not wish to spend my final days seeing a community I once loved being destroyed by the ramblings of Jonestown type pseudo-guru!

Please spare me the cliches, such as don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm sure I won't be missed. After all, I'm sure that forum members are looking forward to reading your beautifully written posts, free of all spelling and gramatical errors, along with your ee cummings use of the perpetual lower case.

Fare Thee Well!
actually, THAT was "predictable and just so boring."

by the way, YOU are quite clearly and emphatically the self-proclaimed fitness expert here and, in the time i've been keeping track you have time and again shown not only that yes, absolutely, your "expertise" is informed by seminar-attending, but that ANYthing that contradicts what you've gleaned is inherently nonsense or out of date. further, you tend to come back with the same over-reactive, shrill, tantrumy crap you've here made your exit piece. other than that, it speaks for itself. want to be taken seriously as someone who might actually have some real life experience with real life sports fitness and training? don't be so dogmatic and listen when someone has a diverging opinion, rather than throw a hissy-fit and take that opportunity to categorically trash the person who's been so brazen as to call you on your stuff.

no comment on the perpetual lower case.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Any thoughts on the original topic, now that we have gone through that flame war?
post #20 of 24
"would using a long heavy ski in short turns be a good conditioning technique, and if not, why not?"

i assume you're talking about getting the same benefit from this that a batter in a baseball game gets from swinging a weighted bat before his at-bat, then switching to the usual, lighter bat when it's time to actually hit.

you would, i guess, have a feeling of being on lighter skis and have the sensation, maybe, of being quicker in the feet on your "regular" skis, and your legs might feel stronger dealing with less resistance. so, in that way, i guess you have gotten some conditioning benefit, though i'd guess it would be minimal to the point of perhaps being negligible.

vlad has already addressed how your form might NOT benefit.

but as far as switching from something heavier - the "workout skis" - to the lighter ("regular") skis, yes, of course, the body adapts; that is the nature and premise of resistance work.

however, i don't view effective skiing as being resistance work; in fact, quite the opposite is the aim, is it not? unforced balance is the desired effect. your legs will be stronger, of course, but if you're muscling these short turns, what happens to technique? again, vlad addressed that.

for that matter, what Ghost and CGrandy offered seems good, common sense feedback.
post #21 of 24
my original post is my own personal assessment- i could certainly be wrong:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
not a good idea...you'll revert to much old-school form such as lifting the inside leg and really scrubbing your turns more.
frankly, you'll get much better conditioning by simply doing leg-extensions on the lift (i Cannot stress the efficacy of this tidbit, enough), and squats in the parking lot, in your ski boots or street shoes, with your skiis over your shoulders. much better workout, by far.
try to avoid the peculiarly-21st century obsession with multi-tasking.
use your skiing time for skiing, and your 'conditioning' time for conditioning.
when you try to do two things at once, neither activity gets 100%
post #22 of 24
Nice work guys, I've long considered LM one of the most valuable resources on this forum. Much more so than 'types a lot to prove he knows all' vlad and 'the kicking horse weather expert from LA'.

Hey Ryan, you know what else was predictable and or so boring? Your early departure from Kicking Horse after months of ignoring advice that it might not be the 'appropriate' choice for a skier of your calibre from those that know the area well. Talk about self proclaimed expert at a moment's notice.

BTW every PT chiro and world cup ski trainer I have dealt with have warned of the dangers of leg extensions. Sheer force is an issue and I don't see where the sheer force on the lift would be any different. the volume of words to follow notwithstanding.
post #23 of 24
I thnk that would work as a conditioning technique. However, I don't think it is the most efficient way to go. If you want to build leg strength, squats and romanian deadlifts are the way to go. I agree with Vlad's original post referring to multi-tasking. I would do these exercises away (physically and mentally) from your skiing. Also, I would give myself plenty of time for the muscles to recover.
post #24 of 24

What do you call

Overuse of the top of the quadricep from pulling forward a weight that's fallen behind the hips?
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