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Proper ski stance - Page 6

post #151 of 191
:-)
post #152 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
That said, going too narrow, while it may not effect balance, may hinder what happens in transition.

exactly what was happening to me... and I don't have a particularly narrow stance... (also very little q angle and I am a girl... just my shape of femurs in sockets is pretty straight).....

I once had a very wide stance - which closed up ALL BY ITSELF (no teaching to do so) as my skiing technique changed. I was told this would happen by my instructors - I was worried because some people were so obsessed with my stance being so wide....

Now my stance - which is NOT that narrow, just no longer wide - is causing me transition problems. I cannot do what I (or my instructors) want with the stance I have now... I need to get just a little wider to do the long turns I want....

as an aside - shoulder width would be a useless measure... in my case shoulders are VERY narrow... and I don't ski with shoulders! I had this out with instructorages ago when he wanted "shoulder width" and complained I closed my stance... I pointed out my shoulders are actually narrower than hips - unlike his... at that point he settled for "a bit wider than you are now then"
post #153 of 191
CSOcean10,

I’ve been reading this post and have to say that most are missing what you are saying. You have stated that a narrow stance, feet that would be more of a walking stance is a narrow stance. I would call it a natural stance myself, and is what I suggest to my students. The cowboy stance is IMHO too wide. Anything wider than the hips will cause the inside edges of the skis to conflict with each other. It’s pretty obvious that a skier with a really wide stance would have difficulty getting the inside ski to tip up as high as the outside ski while trying to carve a turn unless the skiers is really moving and inclined. I think that your observation of vertical separation is also good.

But I do have to say that your belief that all ski instructors have their head up their ass is a little off base. There are many ski pros out there that are excellent teachers and coaches that could help even you. You said that there is no reason for insults, but you in many of your post insult them by saying that you are a better skier than them. Insulting them is no way to get them to agree with your thinking. You may be a good skier and a better skier than a lot of the skiers on your local hill. But to say you are a better skier than all the ski instructors you’ve seen tells me that you are not very well traveled in the skiing world. Why don’t you consider attending the Academy next season in Aspen and see how you match up there. You might be surprised to find that there are some really good skiers that teach out there and else where that attend this event, and you just might learn something. But again, I agree with you on your idea of proper stance and how wide the feet should be.---------Wigs
post #154 of 191
Disski, that is very interesting. I mean this sincerely...do you mind sharing more details about specific problems you were having at the transition and how/why moving to a wider stance helped you specifically? When you say narrow and wide, how narrow were you when you had problems (in inches) and how wide to fix it?
post #155 of 191
dewdman.... I'm not good at describing as you would do it... no idea what my body is doing.... just that the transition was not right (yet the previous instructor had insisted my initiations were fine- I asked)....

The "wider" was maybe 1-2" very small amount... I am guessing just less than 2" from how it felt... (I ski by feel mostly the rest is a bit hard to sense for me).... That is why he actually MOVED my skis to get them where he wanted.... (ignore previous instructor wanting shoulder width that was for an exercise only... as I said they never really obsess with stance width - and I have a LOT of lessons with many diff cert countries... they all swear you only play with it when it affects performance and that AWARENESS is the most important - as in aware of it affecting performance)

I just know he started on this maybe late 2nd or 3rd day after fixing other stuff.... not harping on it - just getting me to feel it and then trying to get me to be more consistent with using it.... It was between working on other things like my outside shoulder position at certain places in turn...

3rd day late he was getting all happy because he said I was feeling the problem and self correcting.... I dunno.... need to return and ski more with him to cement it all in to get my brain around it better...

Sorry - My "brain" and "body" disconnect means I tend to do each part differently and it can take a bit to be able to match the 2 halves so I have control of it more consciously... I learn moves by feel as asked and understand what is wanted separately and then join up understanding with "feeling" ...later - much later....

he just kept saying that my stance was affecting my movements and I needed it to be wider for more effectiveness....

Note that the older(not much but older) instructor I had in group lessons wanted a narrower(slightly) stance than I had... but left me alone after I started having lessons with the WC guy.... Not sure if connected but he did seem to lay off fast....

My guess would be that the WC guy was simply watching me and the skis... while the older guy wanted me to fit a "ski picture" he had in mind....

The WC guy had much less command of english - but was VERY vocal about how he wanted you to ski... tells me he has large pictures (40 frames/sec) of Maier on his wall at home (from some ski place near there that analyses such stuff for training the racers).... The locals tell me he NEVER teaches adults - only instructors....and ??short people?? -they kept making hand signals near their waists... I am guessing juniors...(locals??)
post #156 of 191
While skiing Friday, I saw an instructor leading a class on a groomed intermediate run with his boots pressed tightly together. Perhaps if I had hung around I would have seen the glove exercise?
post #157 of 191
ok dewdman.....

just been playing with how it all feels....

my normal stance would be about as wide as to allow a dvd case to fit between my feet with a tad to spare each side.... I'm small 5'2"... so that is pretty close to legs dead straight out of hip sockets... (easier to pick my regular because it is how I am comfy in skiing stance)

the stance that feels like I was being asked to ski(no boots or skis on so i'm a bit hampered here) feels not quite as wide as 2 dvdcases hard up against my feet..... is that a close enough estimate?

Sorry to be so vague.... I was so focused on achieving the "feel" and memorising it I pretty much ignored the why part... I was pretty sure someone else will be able to translate the changes in my skiing into the technical stuff for me if I can remember the HOW part (that is hardest for me to learn)....

This is sort of how I learn... joining lots of bits to make myself new pictures... it is necessary for me because I can't rely on others mental link descriptions - but need their feedback desperately...
post #158 of 191
I'm amazed this thread has such great legs!

The line I found most valuable was Arc's:
Quote:
A functional stance should be adaptable to allow agility and the ability to user either or both ski's edges effectivly at any time.
PSIA's take on stance width:
Quote:
Versatile/adaptable stance: relates to the functionality of the feet and the desired outcome rather than a specific measured distance of separation.
And finally, this pearl of wisdom:
Quote:
The skier is in balance when they can have a positive, selective effect on any of the skills with either leg at any time.
PSIA statements from PSIA's Skiing Concepts 2005.
post #159 of 191
Thanks for getting back to us on that DisSki, The "how" part is the most interesting thing in question. I happen to think the one DVD case width is better..but I would really like to hear the reason why they were getting you to ski in what *I* would consider excessively wide..and why exactly it has helped you. I'm not at all denying it has..but would like to understand how or why. Wait, before I settle on my thoughts..which way are you talking about with DVD cases? Long side, short side or flat (super short) side?
post #160 of 191
my natural stance now.... dvd case long side...(see not really narrow - much more than the 4" some espouse).... that is pretty much how my legs hang.... caveat - that when you scare me I get WIDER - much wider... but comfy I stand there...(long story about why we think I go wider)

WC guys take on LONG turns (only the long turns not medium or short that I recollect - unless I also widened them but I would guess not as he reminded me a few times but said nothing except more hip & calf movement in the shorts)... not quite 2 dvd's short side... maybe an inch less?

As I said his technical english was limited - so explanations could be harder than normal as we searched for words we both knew... hence my choice to focus on the feel - as his eye seemed so good and by doing as told I could get BIG gains in FEEL very FAST.... When i get it all tied together I can try to post again.... it is hard for me to translate what [b] I [b]feel as I know my awareness is a little skewed by my missing awareness parts...

When I do it his way the movements that I need for ski performance are far more natural - ie I do not have to "work" so much for better result... also I never seem to feel "stuck" in a position with it harder to make a movement than I'd like.... (sorry best I can do atm... maybe Heluva can translate some as Rick is gone away)
post #161 of 191
I think one DVD case wide AT YOUR FEET is pretty comfortable width. I ski with my feet about that wide most of the time. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I'm a wider person so that might seem like a narrower stance, but I think 6-12 inches is a good range for me, most of the time its more like 6-8 inches, and certainly I go more narrow than that in bumps and off piste. I think two DVD cases would be on the wide side. Might need to go there for occasional brief moments of time, but not as the rule. perhaps they were just trying to exagerate it. Cowboy turns are a common drill....

I do think your stance should not be static..it should be flowing with the turns and conditions... So in some ways its kind of silly to even talk about what the stance should be...its always changing. Its more like there is an overall feeling when you watch a skier that they tend to be wide or narrow in their overall feeling. But if in your mind you're imagining that 6 inch seperation between your feet as like the center point.. from which moments of wider or narrower stances might happen......I think that's pretty good.
post #162 of 191
no cowboy turn drills.... we only did a couple of drills (javelin turns... hands on hips pressing hips forward at certain spot in turn... hand on 1 knee and other forward through turn).... these were when i needed to "feel" more than I could do by myself... ie for bigger change than i made with simple guidance... to give me more feel.. then i can go back and have more idea where to move on verbal orders...

the rest was skiing... with and without poles but skiing... feeling the skis move and learning to be better at it... keeping them as smooth as possible and controlling the forces...

Lots of skiing on easy terrain focusing on sensation and perfecting the movements to improve that sensation.... looking back at my track and seeing the "spot" that the inside ski was NOT perfectly smooth... being told why and striving to FIX it... getting told when I HAD fixed it... or better still... stuffed up but felt the "wrong" and corrected as i did it... (he liked this the most.. it means i understand what my skis did)

just ski - talk - repeat - try more of "this" discuss outcome... get it on a couple of turns - ski - try for more....
post #163 of 191
Wigs-
I didnt mean to say that I am better than all instructors. I admitted that I have not had a lesson in quite some time as there are no instructors in my area which specialize in higher level instruction and when I am abroad I generally try to allocate time to get a few lessons in but almost never do. So in comparison to most of the local instuctors I feel that I match up positively. When compared to an aspen instructor I assure you that I would like like a newb
post #164 of 191
Also I dont think all instructors have their heads up their butts....a lot of them do from what I understand. As crudmeister witnessed...the guy was skiing an unnaturally tight stance but chances are that he advises his students to ski with a wider stance...all this will do is confuse the students as modeling is generally more powerful than auditory learning. I would like to attend the academy however as I am always looking for new learnign experiences and most of mine as of late are book-based.
post #165 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSOcean10
Also I dont think all instructors have their heads up their butts....a lot of them do from what I understand. As crudmeister witnessed...the guy was skiing an unnaturally tight stance but chances are that he advises his students to ski with a wider stance...all this will do is confuse the students as modeling is generally more powerful than auditory learning. I would like to attend the academy however as I am always looking for new learnign experiences and most of mine as of late are book-based.
And you are welcome to join us next season at the event in Aspen. ----Wigs
post #166 of 191
CSOcean10,
A bit of advice ...
1. Aspen is not the only place where great skiers teach. Suggesting otherwise is to unfairly harm the reputation of a lot of fine instructors. Like Wigs, I am proud to teach for S3 of Aspen but are there other teachers around that are as just as good, or better? Absolutely! I might add that there are several here on Epic that would fall into that catagory. So to insult them while offering your opinion is foolish. IMO you owe all of those people an appology.
2. Any statement that starts with what you, or anyone else saw from afar, has no credibility. If you were in that lesson, that would be different.
3. Your suggesting that to teach you effectively, you need someone who skis better than you. That is not alway necessary, Look at Sampras (in tennis), his coaches never acheived his greatness on the court, but they certainly helped him acheive that level of greatness. In skiing this happens all the time.
4. Promote the positive advantages of your ideas and you will get a more positive response. Especially if you leave out the "I'm somebody" attitude.
JASP
post #167 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
When I do it his way the movements that I need for ski performance are far more natural - ie I do not have to "work" so much for better result... also I never seem to feel "stuck" in a position with it harder to make a movement than I'd like.... (sorry best I can do atm... maybe Heluva can translate some as Rick is gone away)
Sorry this took so long for me to respond to... First off, I am not Rick, and I would never pretend to be. He has taught me a lot, but I cannot even come close to his expertise and insight into skiing.

I suspect that the reason for slightly widening your stance was because the narrow stance was hindering some other movement necessary to higher level skiing. I also suspect it probably centered around the inside ski, possibly stemming from a lack of vertical separation, or maybe the inside ski/boot was just not getting out of the way to enable you to turn/angulate completely. Clearly your instructor found something in your skiing that was really hindering both your ability to ski, and maintain balance (which is an initial problem for you), and then found a remedy for it. If you were originally too narrow, then getting into a slightly wider stance may have helped you more than the next person. I say that because the move would have kept you from using only the outside "stance" ski, and allowed you to better engage the inside ski... not saying you are weighting it, but it may give you a better feel for the turns you are making, as well as a better feel for balance when making the turn.

Later

GREG
post #168 of 191
yeah - i miss rick already

sorry can't be more use.... I know WHERE in the turn the problem showed itself.... i can remember sort of how good felt.... but fear I'll forget it before I get back onto snow...

soooo frustrating this part of how I need to learn.... MUST get back to Livigno for a full week of lessons with this guy....

maybe to do with why I had to do javelin turns? happened about same time he widened the stance.... (unless he was fixing 2 things at once...)
post #169 of 191
Where in the turn was it?
post #170 of 191
bottom.... mid way between fall line and transition...

I have always had big pressure control problems - as speed of movement is so hard to control for me.... but he seemed to get all that under control(I am improving at it but very slowly) more... so i could ski faster and feel waaaaaaaaayyyy safer ...

inside ski is problem atm... but there was thoughts that was partly from changed skis (very short - 150cm...as airlines would not fly mine for some stupid reason) as well as me being a bit fast with inside leg.... I could get it better some with work... but skis did get very fluttery with speed... I missed my stocklis.... I have had inside ski problems since ESA... not fixed there at all... Did get a few OK runs in Livigno but they required me to stay very focused on those short damn skis!

see above re speed - much faster turns on skis i hated that flapped around like sick fish on my feet (ah maybe that is what Fischer stands for ).... and I was happy doing it.... it was very safe and controlled...

Much stronger short turns as a result... (he likes my short turns ... says he would employ me as instructor on those - lucky they had no deep soft stuff... )
post #171 of 191
Back to the original thought...
The idea of using a wider stance is commonly attributed to the change in ski length. Especially when using slalom shorties. The lack of fore/aft stability is replaced with a little more lateral stability. Especially for racers who were looking for any way to increase stability. For everyone else it is simply an effective adaptation to the new tools that are designed with a wider stance in mind.
Although a wider stance requires a larger displacement of the CM to create the same edge changes, the wider platform facilitates it quite easily. In fact edge angles and body positions we once thought of as impossible are now commonplace.
So at least in most cases a functional width (somewhere around hip width apart) is thought to be superior. If this was not the case, I think we would see the best in the world skiing with an old school narrow stance. Since we do not, I would say the whole idea of narrow being better, is completely wrong.
post #172 of 191
whoo hoo. round and round we go...where it stops nobody knows...

So I guess some of the best skiers in the world you don't think are? Such as Ligety and Rocca perhaps? Both ski with narrow stances. Do we really need to hash this out again?

Hey I say the idea of a wide-ass stance is all wrong too. And while we're at it I say these ridiculously short skis are all wrong too. (:-P)
post #173 of 191
Ok justanotherskipro...I'm not apologizing to anyone. I live in the east. New Jersey to be precise. Any place that I'm likely to do a day trip to is not going to be worth my time and money to get a lesson. Wigs brought up the academy at aspen which is more than just getting a regular lesson. Therefore I replied expressing my interest. I in no way ever claimed that aspen had the only good instructors. Why is it that a lot of people here read half of a post and before they are finished are already responding with scorn? chilllllllllllllll out. I'm not "somebody." Its just that there is somewhat of a deficiency of talented skiers in the places where I get the most turns in and this applies to the instructors as well as the general public. There are good and great ones I'm sure but do you think camelback is as selective as aspen? I dont think so. The odds of me getting an instructor who is going to help me progress are quite small given the fact that most specialize in young people and beginners. So if there is an instructor on this forum in the tri state area, next season I will ask for you by name. But I am not going to waste my time and cash on just anybody. And as for claiming I'm somebody...well at least I don't have the words "ski pro" in my handle....
post #174 of 191
And I'm not going to get into the width debate again. Can you say "bruised and battered dead horse"? I think the issue was covered when we agreed that a natural stance was a good starting point and from there it depends on personal taste and terrain? Cowboy stance = ridiculous, tips and tails tied together= ridiculous. There is a time and place for everything in between, though in my opinion one end of the spectrum is far more versatile though I am not going to repeat myself again
post #175 of 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
whoo hoo. round and round we go...where it stops nobody knows...

So I guess some of the best skiers in the world you don't think are? Such as Ligety and Rocca perhaps? Both ski with narrow stances. Do we really need to hash this out again?

Hey I say the idea of a wide-ass stance is all wrong too. And while we're at it I say these ridiculously short skis are all wrong too. (:-P)
Dewd, nowhere did anyone tout a "wide-ass" stance. I believe that JASP used functional a few times, and ony used wide to describe an easier way to handle extremely short (read 150cm) skis. He actually gave a pretty accurate description of how slalom skiing has evolved over the past few years.

I want you to back track to my original post in this thread. It was something that Rick and I discussed over at realskiers some time before he was removed from the site. How narrow are Rocca's and Ligety's stances really? You are probably looking at them at the gate or apex of the turn (when angulated) and seeing that their one knee is touching their boot. That is well, but look at what happens in transition. Go here: http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/index.html or here: http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...l-2-SR-wm.html and look at each sequence of either athlete. Their stance in transition is about hip width under normal turning circumstances. Calling their stances narrow is a little bit of an exaggeration. They might be narrow compared to what was going on a few years ago with 155cm SL skis (re-read JASP's post for a better understanding), but that is no longer the nature of the sport since longer skis have been introduced. Now, they are functional, certainly not something that can be classified as narrow.

CSOcean10: Before you go insulting the screen names of our professional contributors here it would be wise to understand (meaning read-up on) why they have chosen what they did... preferably before attitudes like your own drives them all away.

Later

GREG
post #176 of 191
I don't believe I insulted him. He told me I has an attitude like I thought I was "somebody" which I do not and I was merely pointing out that he seems to be the one advertising that he is "somebody." So don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. Jeez I got rid of the anti-bush sig. thinking people would go easier on me but people are still at my throat, misinterpreting everything I say.
post #177 of 191
We will leave it at that.
post #178 of 191
Maybe a little psia jab is too much as well. But don't forget...a little disagreement keeps everyone on their toes.
post #179 of 191
CSO,
Send me a PM when you're heading up to MC next year. It would be my pleasure to take a few runs with you.
post #180 of 191
Sounds good. I most definitely will.
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