EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Spring skiing adjustments, correct?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Spring skiing adjustments, correct? - Page 2

post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye
Bottom line is that lifting skis/unweighting (two legs are not acting in unison) means that something was going wrong to begin with. SMJ says his skis were TOO FAR APART. I should have asked how far apart they were before making my comments. I assumed he meant he was hip distance and was going to move his feet close (perhaps very close) together, which would inhibit independence.

Does that make sense?
Sorry, not one bit....

your first sentence says independent leg action is bad. The last sentence says independent leg action is good. Holy smokes Batman, what a puzzler!
post #32 of 58
Kiersten, this is from your own reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
You hear many intermediate skiers saying: 'I've been trying to ski with my legs together all these years and now I'm being told I must keep them apart!' Is this true?
Julia Monk, London


Neither is correct. An expert skier should be able to adjust his/her stance width almost with every turn if necessary. It's impossible to keep a very narrow stance when making dynamic carved turns with the sort of leg angles used by modern racers. There simply isn't room for the inside foot to be next to the outside when they are leaning over so much.

Even in the 1960s, when most ski instructors were wedelling (making short pivoted turns), racers still had a wide stance because it was the most stable and best for carving. Then again, if you do want to 'wedel' a narrow stance would be better, as it also is for short, pivoted turns in bumps or in powder.
In the zipper line (short turns down the fall-line in bumps) it is near impossible to maintain a wide stance; you must have both feet together, going through troughs and over crests simultaneously, to simplify the absorbing movements. There's also a difference between the narrow stance for 'classic' short, bouncy turns in powder and the wider stance for longer carved turns - a more modern way of skiing powder that exploits the 'surfing' capability of wide-bodied skis.
But it is OK to be narrow, and ok to be wide, so long as the width is the correct FUNCTIONAL width for whatever turn and terrain you are skiing.

To me, anything less than hip width is narrow -- is that a bad word? Even the pictures of the turns you've supplied show that hips are still over the feet, just tilted. They will leave wider tracks in the snow, due to edge angle and steepness, but they really are not wider apart than standing upright.
post #33 of 58
Ya bigE, the whole problem here is diferent perceptions of what narrow and wider means. It's different to all individuals. Also, as individuals, our bodies are so different, what is wide to me is not for a 6'3" skier. I'm not going to beat on kiersten or anyone. What I was originally trying to say is skiing Spring conditions to me is easier if I narrow my stance and ski it much like bumps and powder. Pulling m feet in a little making a bigger platform, less carving and angulation. That doesn't mean bootsglued together but it surely isn't feet shoulder width either. Pretty damn hard to carve slush especially on the crowded narrow slopes we have around here.

I stand by my original post.
post #34 of 58
I'm with you Lars. I think in terms of the functional width for the task at hand.
post #35 of 58
Thanks Lars ...

I thought that an earlier post indicated that we do agree.

BigE ... I have been trying to think of a way to make sense of my point to you ... I will give it a try:

our feet are meant to be independent in that they act as two parts, at the same time they are meant to work simultaneously, or in unison.

if you're skiing and one foot is not behaving as the other -- then you're going to have a problem which will likely result in the need for a recovery move like lifting or unweighting a ski.

did I do a better job with this explanation?
post #36 of 58
Sorry klkaye, I just don't get what you're after. You say "act s two parts, and ...they are meant to work simultaneosly or in unison", which in my mind covers all movements.... Including the one you don't like, when
post #37 of 58
Did your mouse freeze up?
post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
I ski Spring conditions much like skiing powder. Using less edging forces and a more two footed platform.

Around here, Spring conditions means ice in the morning and piles of slush or carpets of corn and a mixture of all. The key for me is to always ski these conditions offensively and that means being aggressive all the time.

Like UC said, if it works for you continue to make it work.
I disagree with the less edge angles part. If anything, I'd say more edge angles than normal. You want the ski tracking through the snow, not drifting across it, and to do that, you need a higher edge angle. Reason being that it takes more than a millimeter or twqo of edge to keep you from drifting, you need to use a good amount of the base of the ski against the snow to keep you from drifting out of your intended path. Drifting is bad because of the irregularities in the snow that will deflect your skis as you slide over (or through) them.

So I say two footed with plenty of angles, just like in powder.
post #39 of 58
By saying less edging forces,notice I didn't say angles, I meant being lighter on feet. You still got to put the ski on edge to turn otherwise it would be push turns. But, I think we're generally in the same thought pattern.
post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
Did your mouse freeze up?
oops

fixed
post #41 of 58

 

i just started skiing again this season for the first time in a couple of decades and have been lurking on this board looking for little tips and helpful suggestions to help me out with getting back into the sport.  i skied in spring snow for the first time ever this past easter weekend, and i definitely found lars' post below to be by far the most helpful in terms of describing how i need to adjust my stance to make spring skiing a more relaxing and enjoyable experience.  thanks lars!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
This is the time of year that I really love to ski bumps. I'd rather ski bumps in these conditions than regular trails. That said, when it's really soft, I ski regular trails like I'm skiing bumps. Feet a little more together and less angulation and edging. It makes a better platform for floatation and kips the tips above the snow and you out of the snow.

 

 

post #42 of 58

Stay a little lower, use a little more angulation, and concentrate on the feel of pushing the bottom of the ski straight into the slush, thereby making a perfect platform for whatever shape turn you want.  I prefer a shoulder width stance unless the snow is so rotten and collapsible that you need dual ski support.  I love slush because you can create smooth solid carved turns, ski very fast, and stop on a dime.  That's where I got my name, roller skating in hot mud.

post #43 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye
modern skis dictate a wide stance ... keep the feet apart


I am a big fan of the wide stance for carving hard, but that's because it makes sense there. That's not always the case.

 

That makes me wonder, what are you seeing as a wide stance? Are you meaning if the skis are far apart, you have a wide stance? It would be impossible for this skier to get his stance tighter, his knee is almost touching his ski. Or are you talking about carving in an a frame?

 

post #44 of 58

That could be considered a very narrow stance, since in relation of the alingment with his body the skis are on top of each other.  Way narrower than shoulder width. It looks like he is actually carving with both skis.

post #45 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
I bet my needing to lift my inside ski was because my skis were too far apart and it was getting messed up by the wet snow, so I'll have to work on more of a powder approach next time out.

The tip lead was an intersting thing. It was as if the snow was holding the ski back a bit, and by advancing the downhill ski it bit more and bent more into the turns.



 

Hmmmm....SMJ...you out there? ....the above my emphasis, but your own words.  Think about it.  Tip lead is not the issue here.  I have no doubt "this" worked for you....you should apply "this" in all your skiing.  The only thing you need to work out now is...what exactley is "this". 

 

Not to confuse you: but here is a hint -  the answer is not "advancing the downhill ski".

 

To help: think of inputs vs. outputs.  Above you describe an input.  What was the output?  That output is your goal.  How you achieve may vary...but that goal is constant.

post #46 of 58
Thread Starter 

Hey how'd you like to have something you said 3 years ago brought back to life?

 

Skidude, I imagine you're talking about pulling back the inside ski?

 

"Downhill ski" - I haven't used the terms uphill or downhill ski in years.

 

But oh yeah, I'm out here.  (Some people do actually think I'm "out there.") 

post #47 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Hey how'd you like to have something you said 3 years ago brought back to life?

 

Skidude, I imagine you're talking about pulling back the inside ski?

 

"Downhill ski" - I haven't used the terms uphill or downhill ski in years.

 

But oh yeah, I'm out here.  (Some people do actually think I'm "out there.") 


Ah...is this an old thread?  I never checked the dates...lol  My mistake...Oops.  But it was at the top of the pile so I assumed it was new....
 

 

But no...I am not talking about the pulling back the inside ski...

 

PS: Got it now...post #41.Ok...so I am a little late to the party, what else is new.

post #48 of 58
Thread Starter 

lol.   so what is the output you're talking about?  It would certainly create more pressure on the outside ski (as long as the hips advanced as well.)

post #49 of 58

Well the most fundamental skill that effects our skiing is Balance.

 

We adjust our balance in numerous ways, but no more dramatically then when we move out feet relative to our COM.  In effect that is what you did when you advanced your outside foot.  Hence moving the foot was the input, altered balance was the output. 

 

Was your balance better after advancing your outside foot?  Possibly yes, possibly no.  It all depends on where you had your foot before, but based on your own assessment, for you, at that time, it was better.  This does not surprise me as it is a very common trait for advanced skiers to be too far forward in the bottom half of their turns.  Hence by making an adjustment with your feet, you improved your balance, which inturn inproved your skiing overall.

 

The real trick thou, is not letting that foot get back in the first place....but that is a whole other thread.

post #50 of 58
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Well the most fundamental skill that effects our skiing is Balance.

 

We adjust our balance in numerous ways, but no more dramatically then when we move out feet relative to our COM.  In effect that is what you did when you advanced your outside foot.  Hence moving the foot was the input, altered balance was the output. 

 

Was your balance better after advancing your outside foot?  Possibly yes, possibly no.  It all depends on where you had your foot before, but based on your own assessment, for you, at that time, it was better.  This does not surprise me as it is a very common trait for advanced skiers to be too far forward in the bottom half of their turns.  Hence by making an adjustment with your feet, you improved your balance, which inturn inproved your skiing overall.

 

The real trick thou, is not letting that foot get back in the first place....but that is a whole other thread.


Well SD you certainly nailed this one.  My balance is a constantly evolving thing.  Not being an athlete of any kind until I started skiing as an adult, balance has always been the key to my skiing well or not.

 

Biggest thing for me this season was finally really getting out over my inside ski with my hips, and after that suddenly I was neglecting my outside ski.  So once again I discovered the need to advance it and that hip as well.  I'd gotten out of balance in my quest once again.  

 

Outside ski focus - thesis

Inside ski focus - antithesis

Both skis focus - synthesis

 

Kind of like the pendulum I guess, has to swing too far in one direction before it can return to the middle.

 

Balanced.

post #51 of 58

 

This may sound like heresy from a very old ski instructor, but wish I could have started thinking this way 40 years ago, lots of people would ski better.

 

Don't know if there is a sport with more outside influences as ours and they increase exponentially when we hit springtime conditions.  You folks have danced all over the head of this pin for a month, here is a whole different slant I heard from a sports physiologist talking about golf, kids think about it, it is all the same regardless of the sport. 

 

' We spend lots of time trying to perfect muscle memory, It is a myth.  Humans are predators, not herbivores by nature.  Predators live by physical reaction, not muscle memory.  You are going to throw a rock at dinner; how fast is it, how far, uphill, wind, are we moving, footing,and on and on.....  Throw the rock brother or we go hungry again today.  You don't think it all out, you react to the situation.'  Ski that way! 

 

If you have an athletic stance (you are balanced and everything is comfortably flexed).  Your hands are within your field of vision (a little forward or aggresive).  You are looking down the slope where you are headed, than pretty much everything is going to be okay.  Let it rock from there and enjoy. 

 

Ski on.

 

There are just too many things happening and changing to try and think your way through.

post #52 of 58

Stanger, you have nicely articulated something I have been thinking for about 30 years.  I did not become a good skier until I completely abandoned thinking about technique and just concentrated on the feel of the my skis.  I see these threads on the instructor fourm and mavel at how they can analyze ad nauseum simple movements that come naturally if you approach it without the mental bagage.  If you ski the entire mountain in all conditions then no two turns are technically the same.  If you ski with a mindeset determined to figure out something that will work it goes a long way to improving your technique.  Atheletic stance, hands in front, upper body facing down the fall line, and lead with your face and a relaxed but mildly agreessive mindset will work in two feet of powder, ice, moguals or hedious crud.  The fine tuning of the movements get worked out as you go using independant leg action, anticipating and reacting to every turn.

 

I have nothing against ski instruction, but I have seen too many skiers paralized by technique thoughts to the point of losing all focus of the feel of their skis on the snow.  Skiing with kids reinforces that we natually know how to ski, if we can just get our thoughts out of the way.

post #53 of 58
Thread Starter 

Stranger and Mudfoot, thanks for your comments.  However there are two sides to every coin.

 

I completely agree with both of you that thinking about technique can be a hindrance and skiing by feel is key.

 

I also completely disagree with you that thinking about technique is a hindrance.  I have had many significant breakthroughs in my skiing by focusing on a specific movement.

 

You listed the "only" things that had to be thought about:

 

"Hands in Front"

"Upper Body Facing down the fall line"

"Athletic stance"
"Balanced"

"Flexed"

 

How is that not an interruption to skiing by feel?  How are they any less thinking about what you're doing then some of the other things that many of us work on?

 

By focusing on where my weight is over my skis I can be more balanced.

By focusing on the position of my body I can be in a more athletic stance.

 

Between both of your posts that's a LOT to think about! 

 

Again, I really do agree with you that the best skiing happens when we are in a zone of focus and concentration and NOT talking ourselves down the hill.  However there is a time and a place for focusing on technique, at least for some of us.  For over 10 years I skied by feel and had very little instruction.  I made very little progress.  I started skiing at 35, maybe for one who starts at 3 or 4 it's a bit different.

 

Once I had some top coaches get me to start working on WHAT I was doing I made huge progress.  I don't have to think about what they told me last year, two years ago and so on.  It is in memory, maybe not "muscle memory" but it has moved to the subconscious level.

 

It frees up the space in my mind to focus on new things to make even more improvements.

 

 

post #54 of 58

The "only things that had to be thought about" list constitutes the basic stance from which most skiing flows, and almost all people need some instruction to get to that point, but once you have it you shouldn't have to think about it anymore.  Starting with absolutely no instruction and trying to ski by feel is going to result in a lot of problems, but once you have the basic body position wired IMO the rest can come with feel.

 

There are a huge number of people skiing who do not stand comfortably on their skis, because they do not maintain a good basic stance.  I assumed that you had the basic skills if you were asking about specific spring conditions technique.  There are certainly a lot of ways to skin the skiing cat, but I have seen more than one person become an excellent all-conditions and terrain skier in just a couple of years with no instuction other than the basics. I honestly believe that if you've got the basic position Stanger describes, then you've got pretty much everything you need to take to the hill in any terrain.

post #55 of 58

Yes there is absolutely a place for learning and technique.  We learn and we drill, I believe, to be able to incorporate or modify our skill group.  Then it becomes an automatic action and you truly posses that skill. 

 

MudFoot, I respectfully disagree with you on the lessons part.  You will find great skiers on any mountain that have never taken "a Lesson", many of these naturals if not nearly all evolved their skills skiing with others who skied well.  Like it or not, they got lessons, just not by the strictest definition or most formal setting.  The predator learned to hunt by emulating the parent or pack, why should we be different? 

 

I taught for a long time, was an examiner in my day and skied for a very long time, but I'm still planing to go do an ESA session this next season.  There are new skills I would like to incorporate into my skiing, and I can't see it.  Ski with the tribe, if you will, and get better at it. 

 

My original point stands, the devil sometimes is the details. 

post #56 of 58
Thread Starter 

Stranger, great to have you here on epic, I like what you have to say.  I notice you've been on since 08, but haven't run across your posts before, so a belated "welcome!"


Steve

 

post #57 of 58

 

Stranger, if you were a long time instructor and examiner then you have been focused on skiing and teaching people to ski in a specific "correct" way, a concept that has continually evolved, which to me means the techniqe is not and has never actually been truely "correct," it is just the currently accepted style.  I come from the opposite end of the spectrum.  I have a lot of respect for instructors and certainly acknowledge the value of formal lessons to establish the basic stance and turn elements, but IMO after that the real learning of the sport has to come from within, and no amount of teaching can instill that. There is a old Buddist saying that the teachings are just a finger pointing at the moon, and you should not confuse the finger with the moon.  IMO, obsessing over technique puts your focus on the finger, but as I said, there are many ways to skin the skiing cat and I am sure your personal and teaching successes speak for themselves. 
post #58 of 58

 

Agreed, technique IMO should be only a means to an end, not the end, and it should evolve as our equipment changes.   

 

 

Still contend there is a major place for the more advanced lesson, in virtually any sport.  To make it worthwhile if the student has to want to learn, respect and want what the teacher has to teach them.  They are also the fastest and safest way for someone to take up our silly sport.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Spring skiing adjustments, correct?