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Ski orientation during side edge tuning.

post #1 of 16
3/9/06 at 10:07pm
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know why it's so important to place the ski on it's side with the base away from you when doing the side edges?

The last couple of years I've been getting lazy and just leaving the skis in the vice with the base up. I've been doing everything base up -- base filing, side filing, waxing, etc. I haven't noticed a difference, and it makes it so much easier.

What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 16
3/10/06 at 6:25am
I go base up for the entire process. It's easy, fast and works

I do need to steady the ski with the "free hand" so the file will get a good bite, The vice I have only clamps at the binding.( Beast) The tips and tails would fit in slots IF I would tip the ski on edge ;-)

When I can't find a sharp part of the edge file, I might put the ski on edge so I can "bear down" on the file to keep it from skating.

CalG

CalG
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post #3 of 16
3/10/06 at 6:56am
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Cal. I use a work bench with multiple vice grips, so I can hold the skis pretty much any way I want. I don't seem to run into the problem that you're having. Makes everything so much easier though, doesn't it?
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post #4 of 16
3/10/06 at 4:09pm
rYou can't use even proper pressure on the file and proper ovelapping strokes, and keep the tool at a consistent angle in realtion to the edge since the edge bevel tools are "designed" to be used with the ski standing up base away form you. the base plate stabilizes the tool when pushed against the base facing away from you. I don't know how you can do a good job on the side edge this way. The file needs to be pusehed straight down on the sode edge to have the teethe cut properly. Just as you do nwhen you do your base bevel with the base facing up.

Would you do your base bevel with the base facing away from you and the side edge up? Why not????

the way you guys are doing this is very awkward at best, to maybe save 40 seconds to reorient the ski in the vice. It is also difficult to keep the file in constant contact with the curvature of the sidecut of the ski in your method.

there are probably numerous other reasons that I cannot begin to think of!

Is there some reason you are trying to reinvent the wheel other then shear laziness. Although I think you are making the job much harder and awkward using this method with inferior results.
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post #5 of 16
3/10/06 at 6:52pm
If you have basic coordination, it shouldn't matter. I know it doesn't when I have tuned in all different kinds of vises/mounts -- my handhold on the guide/file/stone is the same either way, just a different wrist orientation. As long at the ski is held solid so you can apply pressure and keep the guides true, it should work fine.
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post #6 of 16
3/11/06 at 1:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
rYou can't use even proper pressure on the file and proper ovelapping strokes, and keep the tool at a consistent angle in realtion to the edge since the edge bevel tools are "designed" to be used with the ski standing up base away form you. the base plate stabilizes the tool when pushed against the base facing away from you. I don't know how you can do a good job on the side edge this way. The file needs to be pusehed straight down on the sode edge to have the teethe cut properly. Just as you do nwhen you do your base bevel with the base facing up.

Would you do your base bevel with the base facing away from you and the side edge up? Why not????

the way you guys are doing this is very awkward at best, to maybe save 40 seconds to reorient the ski in the vice. It is also difficult to keep the file in constant contact with the curvature of the sidecut of the ski in your method.

there are probably numerous other reasons that I cannot begin to think of!

Is there some reason you are trying to reinvent the wheel other then shear laziness. Although I think you are making the job much harder and awkward using this method with inferior results.
Atomicman, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge. You've given so much useful information on here, and even better, you seem to have a great deal of logic and common sense. However........pressure is pressure, and a vector is a vector. I still can't figure out why downward pressure of say, 5psi (doing the ski on its edge) with a guide of 0 degrees, would be any different than sideward pressure of 5psi (ski with the base up). The guide is still against the ski base, and the angle is still 90 degrees (0 degree bevel), wether the ski is on its side, or base facing up.

I know this isn't the way it's been done for ages, but why? Especially when most experienced tuners tune by feel. If I'm tuning an edge while the ski is base up, I would still be sensing the feel of the file/stone and determining how much material is being removed.....same as if the ski were on its edge.
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post #7 of 16
3/11/06 at 8:25am
While it is important to tune from feel, I think being able to see the edge you are working on is also important, hence the ski up on egde. When I'm filing, stoning or polishing i want to SEE the effect on the edge. If it's base up, it makes it difficult to clearly see the edge.
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post #8 of 16
3/11/06 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docjoque
Atomicman, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge. You've given so much useful information on here, and even better, you seem to have a great deal of logic and common sense. However........pressure is pressure, and a vector is a vector. I still can't figure out why downward pressure of say, 5psi (doing the ski on its edge) with a guide of 0 degrees, would be any different than sideward pressure of 5psi (ski with the base up). The guide is still against the ski base, and the angle is still 90 degrees (0 degree bevel), wether the ski is on its side, or base facing up.

I know this isn't the way it's been done for ages, but why? Especially when most experienced tuners tune by feel. If I'm tuning an edge while the ski is base up, I would still be sensing the feel of the file/stone and determining how much material is being removed.....same as if the ski were on its edge.
Gravity is gravity

It's a scientific fact that you can apply more even pressure with less force straight down on something then with your wrist cocked to the side.

With your skis bases up the pressure is being exerted by your fingers while doing it on the side uses your palm and gravity to apply the pressure and keep the tool in place.

If you are tuning multiple skis with the bases up then your wrist and fingers will be doing more work then is needed to apply the necessary pressure.

Also there is more chance of the ski slighty flexing while base up if you apply too much palm pressure where as the ski will not flex while on it's side from downward pressure.

You guys can do whatever you want and works for you but don't make claims that you are doing something revolutionary that nobody has thought of before.
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post #9 of 16
3/11/06 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docjoque
Atomicman, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge. You've given so much useful information on here, and even better, you seem to have a great deal of logic and common sense. However........pressure is pressure, and a vector is a vector. I still can't figure out why downward pressure of say, 5psi (doing the ski on its edge) with a guide of 0 degrees, would be any different than sideward pressure of 5psi (ski with the base up). The guide is still against the ski base, and the angle is still 90 degrees (0 degree bevel), wether the ski is on its side, or base facing up.

I know this isn't the way it's been done for ages, but why? Especially when most experienced tuners tune by feel. If I'm tuning an edge while the ski is base up, I would still be sensing the feel of the file/stone and determining how much material is being removed.....same as if the ski were on its edge.
Thanks for the Kudos,! do what ever floats your boat! I am not opposed to new ideas , for instance I usually tune my side edge first. With that said your side edge method seems very awkward to me so I will just keep my skis side edge up, base away when doing my side edges! I think the awkwardness of trying to apply pressure laterally is the reason it has not done that way for ages!
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post #10 of 16
3/11/06 at 8:38pm
I wish I had a vise .
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post #11 of 16
3/12/06 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
[quote=Scalce]Gravity is gravity

It's a scientific fact that you can apply more even pressure with less force straight down on something then with your wrist cocked to the side./quote]

Yeah, that's the method when I'm packing my suitcase However, you don't need that much pressure to tune your skis. You can apply the required amount of pressure with your fingertip applying a lateral vector. I find it easier also, to then use my palm to apply downward pressure to keep the file guide agains the base of the ski, thus ensuring a constant propper bevel.

Maybe it's just me and my profession. I rely on manual dexterity, and I'm often having to figure out different ways to get to got to something, and I'm always having to use weird angles and such. To each his own, I guess.

[quote=Scalce]You guys can do whatever you want and works for you but don't make claims that you are doing something revolutionary that nobody has thought of before./quote]

I wasn't aware that any of us were making the claim of revolutionizing anything, much less ski tuning. I already did that when I invented shaped skis.
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post #12 of 16
3/12/06 at 1:56pm
For me once in a while I will diamond stone my side edges while the ski is lying flat - out of laziness. However if I'm filing a ski I want to see what I'm doing and use the down and pulling towards me motion.
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post #13 of 16
3/12/06 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docjoque

I wasn't aware that any of us were making the claim of revolutionizing anything, much less ski tuning. I already did that when I invented shaped skis.
It was you?

I'll bet the big shot corporate bastards stole your idea too, didn't they.
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post #14 of 16
3/12/06 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
Gravity is gravity

It's a scientific fact that you can apply more even pressure with less force straight down on something then with your wrist cocked to the side.

With your skis bases up the pressure is being exerted by your fingers while doing it on the side uses your palm and gravity to apply the pressure and keep the tool in place.

Umm, how heavy are your files and guides? Because mine are pretty light, and any added "weight" due to gravity acting on their mass is almost negligible compared to the pressure applied by my hand. In principle, you get an additional force from gravity. In reality, it's so small it won't matter in this case.

Now if you strap some dumbells on those file guides, I am with you 100% !!
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post #15 of 16
3/13/06 at 11:43am
I put the ski on edge to file (which do rarely), and leave it flat to deburr and diamond stone/polish (which I do religously after every day).
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post #16 of 16
3/14/06 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219
Umm, how heavy are your files and guides? Because mine are pretty light, and any added "weight" due to gravity acting on their mass is almost negligible compared to the pressure applied by my hand. In principle, you get an additional force from gravity. In reality, it's so small it won't matter in this case.

Now if you strap some dumbells on those file guides, I am with you 100% !!
I'm not saying the weight of the file weighs it down.

I'm saying that your hand, arm, and wrist are pushing down which is easier to apply force then sideways.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Ski orientation during side edge tuning.