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"Phantom move" & "White pass turn"??

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I haven't been cruising this forum for very long, so maybe I missed some really important threads...

Can someone tell me what the "phantom move" and the 'White pass turn" are?
post #2 of 24
I'll take the easy one. A "White Pass Turn" is a turn initiated entirely on the inside ski (i.e., if you're turning right, your left foot is in the air or at least completely unweighted). Once you reach the fall line, you put your outside ski down (i.e., the one you didn't use to start the turn) and finish your turn on that ski alone. It was named by the Mahre brothers (American ski racers in the early 80s) in honor of the White Pass Ski Area that they grew up at. If you are overly pivoting or steering into your turn, this turn is absolutely impossible.

I will let others handle the "phantom move" definition.
post #3 of 24
The Phantom Move is a PMTS technique. The simple definition is that it is lifting the tail of the new inside ski and tipping it in the direction of the desired turn as a means of initiating a new turn. The definition from Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier #1 is "Activity of the free foot and ankle to invert the free foot and bring it closer to the stance foot. This creates ski-turning actions."

The White Pass turn was invented by the Mahre brothers as a racing technique. Nowadays, the term is usually referring to a variation of the original turn that is a common task on PSIA certification exams. The most common definition of the task that I've seen is one ski skiing on the inside ski from fall line to fall line where the one foot is switched while in the fall line (i.e. finishing a turn going across the hill you are standing on your outside ski only. You start the next turn on your inside ski only. Once you get in the fall line, you set your outside foot down and pick your inside foot up.). It is my understanding that the original White Pass turn involved setting the outside ski down at angle to the inside of the turn in order to shorten the radius of the turn.

There are other interpretations/definitions.
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
Cool, Thanks Guys!

I've been doing a modified versionn of the White Pass turn, called a Tracer turn, where the outside ski remains on the snow, unweighted, for balance only.

I just had never heard either of those terms before (darn sheltered midwestern skiers ).

Being PSIA, but a student of all movements and systems, I'll have to give the phantom move a try this weekend.
post #5 of 24
one correction...the phantom move does not neccessarily mean lifting the inside ski. Lifting the inside ski is an "exercise" to help skiers learn how to feel the phantom move..but ultimately, the reason its called the "phantom" move is supposedly because if you watch someone doing it its fairly invisible that its going on. In other words, someone could be skiing along, both skis on the snow at all times and they could be doing the phantom move and you wouldn't even know it from watching. Its a very visually subtle move. All the one foot exercises are meant as learning tools, not general skiing technique.

I wont' try to explain any more than that because I am not a PMTS expert yet and the books/videos do it a lot more justice as does the realskiers forum archives.

I will say, that I skipped a lot of the one footed stuff (for now) and just thought about the essence of what the phantom move is trying to accomplish and had some breakthroughs last weekend, so, personally I think its totally worth studying about and checking it out..
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
but ultimately, the reason its called the "phantom" move is supposedly because if you watch someone doing it its fairly invisible that its going on.
If a ski turns in the woods, did it really happen?

Volklgirl,

PSIA people (and I'll bet racers too) were using an exercise like the Phantom Move long before HH coined the term. I like the tracer turn too. The White Pass turn encourages similar movements, but gets into your head a little more.
post #7 of 24
Maybe not White Pass but definitely a Strong Inside Ski.

Michael Von Gruenigen

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/video/20...-MVG-final.mpg

In fact, in a Harb video, he uses the term, "Von Gruenigen move" to illustrate an "inside ski" drill.
post #8 of 24
I've noticed that racers still like to ski on one ski at a time.

They just are not as fussy about which one when.

CalG
post #9 of 24

phantom move

the strong inside turn is called the weighted release in PMTS but still involves the phantom move as that downhill about to be inside ski is tipped no matter what the pressure state is on that ski.

The term phantom comes from the way this turn looks at gentle speeds with shaped skis. That act of tipping that inside foot while it is on the snow laterally while removing some pressure on it is one way to get the skis to edge in a subtle way. In the PMTS style of instruction this move is used at all levels and has multiple benefits. (like getting out of your own way)

You can also read about this same move called Phantom Edging in Lito's book Breakthru on the new skis and it's also described in the book Ski the Whole Mountain. The perspective on this move and pictures etc used with it are different than the more talked about books by Harald Harb and can be useful in fully understanding this old racer technique.

Since the inside foot is harder to tip to the LTE than the outside foot is to tip to the BTE often you'll see skiers whoose inside ski lags in the turn. But once you play with this move you'll find it has the potential to do more than just make for a more parallel turn. If you use strong tipping (the way Arcmeister teaches it) you'll find it very natural to drop the hip and have some counter in the turn. When John Cledenon works with people on his Ski Decks the day before the lesson on the slope this move is the focus of the time on the deck.

1 caveats about playing with this move. If your hips are used to allowing free and independing leg rotation then you won't feel the effect of this move. If you, on the other hand, add a bit of tension/co-contraction to your hip-rotators, then you'll find that the act of tipping the inside foot which results in that knee pointing to the outside, while the hip-rotators are in tension will pull on the other leg to either match the edging or pivot to match the knee angle. If you allow the edging to match you will have a very nice mechanism to control turn shape. If you force the outside ski to stay flat, then you have an indirect method of generating rotary torque while maintaining balance.

Mistakes to watch for in this move is to do more than just lateral tipping of the foot. You do not want to point the tip and diverge the tips. It's not necessary and looks sloppy.

Also, when doing it, it's also important througout the turn to keep some pressure to keep that lightened tipped inside foot pulled in toward the outside foot. Otherwise that leg will tend to sneak away and out of a functional stance.

Later, this move is still used in a full pressure weighted release. The basic bio-mechanics don't change whether the pressure is equal between skis or only on the outside ski or only on the inside ski.
post #10 of 24
Great thread. I have played with the phantom move, both on skis and on inlines. While I am not proficient by any means, I really like the feeling it provides of moving the CM downhill--what my Pro-Jam coach calls "skiing into the future." But one thing I have wondered about is whether the use of this as a learning technique--not an end state-- would produce skiing movements that are in conflict with PSIA teaching and thereby be a disqualifying factor in a PSIA exam.

In other words, does the value of the maneuver lie in its teaching/learning effects, or does it tend also to produce a stylistic outcome that, if spotted by PSIA, will land you in jail?

.

JoeB
post #11 of 24
Joe, I think we are in similar boats. I have been "playing around" with some PMTS concepts..not the full one footed exerecises, but just analyzing the phantom move(which is actually not a PMTS concept per say, lots of people teaching this form of transition they just use different exercises to get there and perhaps some different terminology).

Nonetheless, I have noticed some real benefit to this transition, particularly on groomers. When I watch WC guys free skiing on a groomed run in some relaxed video footage or some high level instructors such as that guy that posts for Keyboard mag (chris something er other), they all seem to be using this move...more more subtly, but its there.

So the first answer to your question is, who cares about PSIA? If it makes your skiing better than embrace it. I wasted 2 years trying to perfect some CSIA concepts that even at the time they taught them to me I felt they were wrong. But I tried to master them anyway and really fouled up my skiing for 2 whole years. Now I'm getting back to reading some books about racing technique, reading about PMTS and othe approaches, reading this forum, watching WC guys and just recolecting about the race oriented coaching I received 5 years ago (not much of it, but a little bit)...to realize how wrong CSIA was, what a waste of time it was for me and basically I think PMTS is on the right track.

I can't speak authoritately about PSIA because I am not certified in it (yet), but I'm planning to purrsue that. I am a little concerned as you are, that PMTS-isms will be spotted and biased against. But I've seen enough PSIA guys skiing with this technique to not be too worried about it...and frankly..I do not plan on takeing a step backwards with my technique again like I did for CSIA. I am a lot more savvy now and if I for one single minute suspect that PSIA is leading me astray I will dump the whole thing and never look back, quite frankly. But I hear that a lot of things in PSIA are changing and except for blatant dislike for HH and PMTS, the techniques are converging. So I'm not too worried. Just don't mention words to PSIA examiners like "free foot", "stance foot", "LTE tipping", "phantom anything", etc.. And do not under any circumstances do any one footed skiing. Do not lift your inside ski. Remember that is only an exercise anyway, not the end result.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
And do not under any circumstances do any one footed skiing. Do not lift your inside ski. Remember that is only an exercise anyway, not the end result.
Whoa dewd - a little less coffee!

White pass turns are an exam staple. In my level 3 exam tasks clinic at Pro Jam this year, Lani had us doing one footed lane changes. Yes you will need to be able to demonstrate two footed skiing. Yes they might ding you a bit if you lift the tail of the inside ski too often. But if you're doing it to help you get yourself moving into the turn, that's the movement they want to see. My bet is at least half of the examiners in PSIA-E would say Harold (sic) Who? HH is not a significant influential force in the organization.

Good skiing is....





Good skiing!
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
Great thread. I have played with the phantom move, both on skis and on inlines. While I am not proficient by any means, I really like the feeling it provides of moving the CM downhill--what my Pro-Jam coach calls "skiing into the future." But one thing I have wondered about is whether the use of this as a learning technique--not an end state-- would produce skiing movements that are in conflict with PSIA teaching and thereby be a disqualifying factor in a PSIA exam.

In other words, does the value of the maneuver lie in its teaching/learning effects, or does it tend also to produce a stylistic outcome that, if spotted by PSIA, will land you in jail?

.

JoeB
Joe in my opinion nothing from PMTS except using the language or skiing with feet to close together will get you in hot water. Talk steering and guiding instead of pressure and tipping and ski the same identical way and they will not know the difference.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
Great thread. I have played with the phantom move, both on skis and on inlines. While I am not proficient by any means, I really like the feeling it provides of moving the CM downhill--what my Pro-Jam coach calls "skiing into the future." But one thing I have wondered about is whether the use of this as a learning technique--not an end state-- would produce skiing movements that are in conflict with PSIA teaching and thereby be a disqualifying factor in a PSIA exam.

In other words, does the value of the maneuver lie in its teaching/learning effects, or does it tend also to produce a stylistic outcome that, if spotted by PSIA, will land you in jail?

.

JoeB
I learned that Phantom thing from a National demo Team guy (who even referred to HH when he did it), so I'd say it's OK to use it in an exam. You should describe movements only in the terms as defined in PSIA manuals. To their credit, Examiners and PSIA genearally put a lot of emphasis into creating a common technical vocabulary for movement analysis. Alternative definitions, and terms like "muscular tension" (which is meaningless as tension is the only thing that muscles do), "passive rotation" and others are more useful to create market differentation. You should always use simple, noon-technical terms when talking with students (even when they are the other instructors in an exam), and never talk about any body part above the ankles.
BK
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
J

...don't mention words to PSIA examiners like "free foot", "stance foot", "LTE tipping", "phantom anything", etc.. And do not under any circumstances do any one footed skiing. Do not lift your inside ski. Remember that is only an exercise anyway, not the end result.
PSIA has been working 30 yeras to develop a common vocabulary to describe skiing, so it's not surprising that they prefer not to use terms aas defined by someone who markets by slamming "TTS." The ATS Skiing Model has been around ofr at least 25 years, and it was adequate to describe skiing as it was then, on straight old skis, and it is equally adequate to describe skiing on the new skis, so there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to change it or to redefine its terms.
One footed skiing has been a requirement of every PSIA exam I've ever taken, but you do need to be able to ski without lifting your inside foot at the transition on all types of wedge christie and parallel turns also.

BK.
post #16 of 24
volklgirl,

The phantom move has been around a long time. It is primarely a visual cue for knock kneeded or A frame skiers to open to the hill during transition. HH has made a system of skiing around it.

Good skiing uses diagional movements. Diagional movements out of the old turn and diagional movements into the turn. Good drills all use diagional movements and the white pass turn is one of them. Thousand steps is another, and a turn followed by 2 garland skates into another turn is another.

RW
post #17 of 24
Volklgirl the White Pass Turn has been accurately described in this thread but not the Phantom Move. Although similar variations of the Phantom Move are taught by many instructors PMTS teaches it with at least one variation that I have not seen anywhere else.

The major difference is that in the PMTS version, the hip adductors are actively brought into play which try to move the free foot towards the stance foot. I have not seen this from any other instruction even though the PSIA manual states the same benefits the PMTS method achieves by teaching the movement.

Activating the hip adductors (inner thigh muscles) along with tipping the new inside ski towards the little toe edge has a very big stabilizing effect on the new inside ski during transition and throughout the turn. This movment also transfers balance to the new outside ski and draws the center of mass into the turn using the kenetic chain in a very controlled manner.

PMTS teaches the basics of this movement early by having the student hold the lifted free foot against the new outside ski boot and tipping the new free foot towards the little toe edge in the air. Once the movement becomes more ingrained, the foot is not lifted and then the movement does not necessarily decrease the stance width as many falsely believe.

Directly from the 1996 PSIA manual page 115 paragraph 4. "The hip adductors (inner thigh muscles) are used to pull the legs together. You use them to stabilize your skis, keeping them on track and moving in the right direction. Balance strength and flexibility between the left and right adductors is very important to maintain good alignment with your skis."

PMTS simply acknowledges this and teaches it. The results are controlling the disconnect many advanced skiers have with the inside ski wanting to do something other than remain parallel to the outside ski.
post #18 of 24
I've had a PSIA examiner go through the phantom move, with demos and everything. I won't out him by name, but it's another trick I'm glad to have in my bag.
post #19 of 24
The advantage of working in a field with high turnover is everything old can become new if you just attach a new label.

Here's a cool new definition from PSIA that I like a lot: The skier is in balance when they can have a positive, selective effect on any of the skills with either leg at any time. That about covers it!
post #20 of 24
dewdman, thanks for your thoughts re phantom move and PSIA acceptance of the results. I agree on the one hand that, if it works, it has compelling value on the merits. But on the other hand, I am working toward PSIA level II, and so I want to build a skill set that is complimentary to the results that they are looking for.

It is good news to both of us that more than one post in this thread seem to be saying that, language aside, achievement of the desired result will not, thankfully be detectable.

JoeB
post #21 of 24
I think as long as the phantom move or other HH-isms do not get in the way of you being able to perform the stuff they want you to in PSIA, then I don't see a problem. But me personally, I plan to be very careful about using any terminoloy that might tip them off that I have ever read anything by HH.
post #22 of 24
Quote:
I plan to be very careful about using any terminoloy that might tip them off that I have ever read anything by HH.
Just mention how important rotary skills are and there will be no problem.

RW
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
I think as long as the phantom move or other HH-isms do not get in the way of you being able to perform the stuff they want you to in PSIA, then I don't see a problem. But me personally, I plan to be very careful about using any terminoloy that might tip them off that I have ever read anything by HH.
All those excercises are fine, but since you are looking for a PSIA certification, you should be able to explain things in terms defined by PSIA. You do not need to be concerned that they may think you have read HH's book. They assume most of us don't read anything.

BK
post #24 of 24
Cool thread... couple of comments.

If the terminology developed over so long was perfect nobody would be reading HH or anything else.

PSIA points out that people learn in different modes. Hence any movement should be eligable so long as it is not completely contrary to the desired end.

Skiing is an art. anytime you get to the point where you are using specific terms in particular ways to mean particuar things to the extent that everthing else is a sin... you have created a doctrine and are destined to become brittle and dead.

I agree, you need to be able to communicate with these folks in terms that they understand. If an examiner has lost their sense of adventure to the point that they are are going to get touchy over words. Walk out of the exam. The appropriate response would be... "Yes Jim and in the PSIA system we refer to that concept as xyz because..." So far I haven't run into this and I hope I never do.

Read everything you can. Do everything you can. Fear nothing as long as you are honest about it.
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