moguls and PMTS - Page 11

Originally Posted by Max_501

Interesting analysis of PTMS. Would you please let us know what your exposure to PMTS is?

Originally Posted by CTKook

3d party observation, amusement at the Harb Carvers, and having used some of the concepts in teaching my kid.

Originally Posted by Max_501

So its safe to say that I have a bit more experience with PMTS (5 years of study, inclulding 6 days of private coaching from HH and 2 days from Jay), I also own the Harb Carvers which seem to amuse you for some reason. I respectfully disagree with your analysis. I and many of the other PMTSers I've skied with can ski all of the terrain you pointed out in your prior post.

The most important concept is that many (if not most) of the PMTS students I know strive for the highest levels of skiing. In your prior post you say...



I find it fascinating whenever I see this type of post from a non PMTS student. How would you possibly know what the target audience is? How would you know how the target audience would like to ski?

Originally Posted by CTKook

Yes you clearly have much more direct experience, and have spent a lot of $$ too. And some of your other posts, including viewing waist-high bumps as big, rather show that you've had a groomed-snow emphasis. It sounds like you're having fun though, and if it works for you, great.

Originally Posted by Max_501

Funny, the last thing I have is a groomed snow bias. But whatever...there's no way I can convince you differently so go ahead and assume what you want about PMTS.

Originally Posted by CTKook

...Bob Barnes ... Re: offensive vs. defensive, I think you're being groomed-snow, carving-centric, though. "Braking" by skidding while carving groomers frequently is defensive.....

Originally Posted by therusty

The title does not come close to conveying what I intended, but the it does work as a shorthand for the topic. There are two basic things I wanted to explore here:

• the true extent to which PMTS promotes carving in the bumps
• what is really meant by the instruction to get the skis flat and let them float with respect to carving or skidding

There are 2 quotes from ACBAES#2 that shed some light on this topic:
1) "This is as close as you can get to carving in the bumps"
2) "...I still let the side cut take me around the turn, demonstrating carving in the bumps". This greatly helps to clarify the semantics of "carving in the bumps". Clearly PMTS bump technique is not 100% carving.

With respect to "float", HH says "As I flatten my skis, I let them float out from under my hips." Another quote reads "Notice for an instant after the release, the skiers let their skis float ahead of their bodies." Float may or may not be skidding, but it certainly does not sound like carving. Watching the DVD demonstrations, it looks very much like a PSIA skidded parallel turn. The skidding is not bad, car wreck type skidding, but there is no carving like ski tracking going on.

It's kind of funny that you can look at these two issues as either proof that PMTS and Dan's approach are very different or proof that they have some similarities. Dan's approach makes no mention of using sidecut to assist turns and in fact promotes the use of mogul skis with less side cut. Yet, he acknowledges the use of the ski edge in mogul skiing and refers to the use of the term "partial carving" within the mogul skiing community. Dan's book notes that "even top mogul competitors will sometime skid a bit in the middle of a turn". Is this the same or the opposite of PMTS float? Or is the advice to turn the skis in mid air between edge sets the same or opposite of PMTS float. Can we find similarities and differences BOTH at the same time?

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

Hey guys,

Yeah, Bob, I, too, was thinking what CTKook says here. This idea that skidding is “defensive” rather than “offensive” comes from a system developed on groomed snow. I’d like to suggest that it’s of little use in bumps.

Sometimes World Cup mogul skiers skid. Sometimes they don't skid. And that goes for men and women. But skidding isn't the “defensiveness,” or the compromise, or the impurity that it is commonly understood to be on the groomed trail. It's just not as important in the moguls. And the whole turn isn't as important in the moguls.

On the groomed trail, the turn is nearly the only means of gaining purchase on the snow. In the moguls, one gains purchase on the snow, in part, yes, with the turn, but one gains purchase on the snow through absorption and extension, too (as you know).


I think one piece you're missing, Bob, is that absorption and extension are so important in the moguls -- such an important, powerful means of control -- that the turn (and a bit of skidding) become far less important in bumps.

And absorption and extension don't merely make the turn more effective. In the moguls, even flat skis headed straight down the fall line can gain purchase on the snow with good A&E. As I say in the book, it’s like walking down stairs; you don’t put your sneakers “on edge” to control your speed as you descend stairs! You just step on each step. Well, bumps face upward, like stairs, and when you absorb them properly, it’s like stepping on a stair; it controls your descent. The mogul skier's turn might be a little skidded or it might not. (Depends on a bunch of different things.) Don’t even worry about whether or not the bit of skidding that may or may not occur in a well executed mogul run is defensive or offensive. The key is in the A&E!

-Dan DiPiro

P.S. If forced to talk about being on "offense" in the moguls, I'd first talk about body posture: staying out of the back seat, constantly driving those hips down the hill. That's definitely an "offense" that matters in
moguls.

Originally Posted by Ghost

Should we call the first "float" and the latter skid? (or should we call the first one flat-boarding )

Originally Posted by Ghost

...Using the "brakes" is optional. You don't only get (upward) force from the edge scraping along the snow at an angle, you can get it directly from the bases that are flat to the snow on the up-facing side of the bump, though in big steep close icy bumps this can devolve into slamming them....

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

And when the bumps get really icy, we don't need to ski them.

Originally Posted by Max_501

Heh...good advice there.

Dan's bumps to staircase analogy is excellent. A pro bumper showed me how he could go straight down slowly and then speed it up as he increased the speed of A&E...in this case the A&E was controlling his speed as there wasn't much in the way of turns thrown in. It was one of those things that I didn't really believe until I had seen it.

Originally Posted by CTKook

Well, maybe think about if you've in fact been getting on terrain defining the off-piste focus that you have. Like, if you're into bumping, there are defining bump runs and bump areas...

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

Max, cool that you had the opportunity to see a pro bumper demonstrate A&E! And I'd add that...

1. You don't need to be a pro bumper to learn to use A&E effectively, and...

2. A&E is effective in mellow mogul fields and at slow, comfortable speeds.

-Dan DiPiro

Originally Posted by disski

or out of resort boundaries even....

Originally Posted by CTKook

...amusement at the Harb Carvers...

Originally Posted by Max_501

BTW, if you like to carve and want to keep your skills sharp on dryland the Harb Carvers are great. I've got a pair and I love them. They really dial in the technique too, no cheating with carvers.

Falling sucks though.

Originally Posted by CTKook

Dropping in on a 5 foot mini is actually harder than the "Daily Drop," so it's great cross-training. Or you can use quads, while they don't edge in the way inlines or carvers do some people believe that overall they're more similar to skiing.

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

Yes, Ghost! Nicely done!

Right, ice makes the ol' slide-and-slam more likely. But bumpers with rapid, active, well-timed absorption and extension can smooth out even quite icy bumps. (Good A&E solves a lot of problems in moguls.)

And when the bumps get really icy, we don't need to ski them.

-Dan DiPiro

Originally Posted by Max_501

Heh...can someone put this into old man lingo for me?

Originally Posted by CTKook

I think one reason many straightline back to the lift isn't because they find the terrain boring, but because they're not willing to pay dues doing something not immediately rewarding.

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

But bumpers with rapid, active, well-timed absorption and extension can smooth out even quite icy bumps. (Good A&E solves a lot of problems in moguls.)

Originally Posted by Dan DiPiro

...In the moguls, even flat skis headed straight down the fall line can gain purchase on the snow with good A&E...

Originally Posted by CTKook

In terms of doing this in mellow bumps, you can play around with pressuring the shovel into the bumps and absorbing fully (which has the most braking effect), extending with no absorption to get air, and sitting back on the tails and watching the skis shoot ahead. In terms of whether any of these are offensive or defensive I thnk you'd have to know the context to say.