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moguls and PMTS

post #1 of 326
Thread Starter 
does anybody have any comments on applying ptms technique while skiing moguls. I've read the book, check the website and don't get how to do it. I feel confident on anything east coast can throw at me except moguls. Basic questions that come up (but probably are not limited to) are:
* do you carve or slip or somewhere between?
* how to handle east coast moguls (iced + iced troughs)
* does tipping work?
* stance (wide/narrow)

Also, is there a PMTS thread somewhere on this board?
post #2 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
Also, is there a PTMS thread somewhere on this board?
No, but it sounds like a non-dogmatic, free exchange of ideas will follow.
post #3 of 326
keram the forum you really want for direct PMTS questions is www.realskiers.com

Yes you can ski moguls just fine using PMTS techniques. These turns are largely with a fairly flat low edged ski with a fairly narrow stance.

When you talk tipping I assume you mean the free foot and not the whole body. Yes tipping the free foot does work.

Ice moguls and iced troughs are tough for most skiers. What most moguls skiers fail to realize is that speed can be entirely controlled by timing without much edge grip at all. If you slow down the turn entry at the top of the bump, on each bump and let the skis develop the turn without the hockey stop approach you can ski moguls of solid ice just fine. The approach is too simple and therefore everyone misses it and rejects the idea as plausible at first.

Even so, remember that learning moguls is like eating oreo cookies. You have to eat a few before you can enjoy them and its hard to only eat just one.
post #4 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
does anybody have any comments on applying ptms technique while skiing moguls.
it's actually pmts, however, we won't hold it against you and i'll bet you'll get plenty of comments. you will be told that it will make you an expert everywhere, anywhere, that it will grow hair and improve your sex life as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
I've read the book, check the website and don't get how to do it.
i'm sorry. that's not the authors fault, that's your fault. you're not reading it carefully enough and obviously not trying hard enough.

this reminds me of when i was a kid. i'd see a toy on t.v., bring it home, try and put it together, and the doggone thing just didn't quite work like they said it would.

send the author an e-mail and maybe he'll refund your money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
Also, is there a PTMS thread somewhere on this board?
just a few.

go to your local mountain and ask to meet the ski school director. tell he or she what your goals are and demand a level III cert. make your ambitions clear to the ski pro and i bet your bump skiing will come around.

no pun intended

skiing moguls involves balancing on a sliding platform. how one balances is one of the devilish details. at winter park/mary jane we explore a concept called "functional ankle tension". it is a concept that our ski school director has championed. he's not an author, however, he was a former d-teamer.

it is simple and it works. it's our "secret sauce" for good bump skiing. can't tell ya what the recipe is or they would have to shoot me.:

once you balance then you start sliding down the hill blending tipping and turning of the skis. the author of your text says experts don't turn their skis. we call this rotary movements.

he says that's a "no-no".

i have two little ideas that i espouse in bump lessons. the first is that people get a little anxious and as a result try to do "too much, too soon, too fast". a good example is simple. folks try to get their skis re-directed and across the fall line too quickly. i do all i can to slow their movements down. that doesn't mean they ski slower.....just key movements slow down such as when they make the movements and where in bumps this occurs.

the other idea involves tactics. i suggest to folks that WHERE they go is much more critical than WHAT they do. it's tactics. we teach a neat system called the "buddy bump"

it's cool too and yes..........very top secret. can't talk about it. we invented it and patented it and we're the only ones who know how to do it. no one else has ever done it.

maybe we should write a book and make a video.
post #5 of 326
Keram,

To specifically answer your questions:
* do you carve or slip or somewhere between?
Somewhere in between. There are many different techniques that you can use to ski moguls. The most accomplished mogul skiers have a lot of tools in their tool kit so they can deal with many different situations.

* how to handle east coast moguls (iced + iced troughs)
First, East coast moguls get soft and West coast moguls get hard too. Second there are many different techniques for dealing with icy moguls including avoiding the ice in the first place and going where the soft snow is, bracing your skis against mogul surfaces (e.g. the front sides of bumps) to provide breaking and using extra pressure to jam your edges into the ice. Finally, basic soft mogul competence (balance, fore/aft pressure management, short radius turn ability) is a very good starting point for confidence in icy bumps.

* does tipping work?
Sure. Especially if you tip your instructor at the beginning of the lesson. As you've previously expressed yourself as a PMTS follower, you should already have experience telling you that tipping can facilitate carving. In the bumps, carving can be quite helpful for parts of the turn.

* stance (wide/narrow)
Typically in the bumps, you will use a narrower stance than on the groomers.

You can search the forums for threads quite easily. There are 492 threads in the instruction section on Epic that mention PMTS and 21 of those mention moguls, but none that are focused on the topic. If you search for mogul in just the titles, there a few threads. This thread from Pierre describes his technique that he prefers for icy bumps.

For moguls, the quickest way to improve is to get face to face instruction. This is because an in person evaluation is the most effective way to identify your strengths and weaknesses, understand/help set attainable goals and then design a program that will work best for you. There's a lot of advice "out there" for skiing moguls. Sifting through it all and putting it into an order that will work for you is a tough job.

Please go to the PMTS forum (this is the direct link), ask your question, compare your results and let us know which forum you found to be most helpful.
post #6 of 326
Yes, and my comment is don't apply PMTS carving techniques to moguls. I learned carving from Harb's Anyone Can be an Expert Skier book but those techniques just don't apply to zipperline mogul skiing. In fact, my obsession with carving that started with the PMTS book was actually detrimental to my bump skiing. Skidded and scarved turns combined with absorption and contraction (which I thing PMTS does also emphasize) are much more efficient.

Dan Dipiro's book, Everything the Instructors Never Told You About Mogul Skiing is excellent, short & cheap. There's a thread plugging it at www.alpinezone.com. I have no ties with him, BTW. My bump skiing improved dramatically when I abandoned the whole carving idea (I still love carving rr tracks on groomers!).
post #7 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar
My bump skiing improved dramatically when I abandoned the whole carving idea (I still love carving rr tracks on groomers!).
BINGO.......ding, ding,ding
post #8 of 326
It took me over 30 years to finally figure out that trying to carve in the bumps was a detriment to skiing moguls better and controlling speed. Jamming the edges accelrates the skis and its a lot harder to stay centered on a ski that is accelerting beneath you. The kid up the street gave me a bump tip I have used from time to time to check my speed in the bumps and recover for the next turn. He told me to "throw my tails at the back of the bump". I have found this to be really effective form of recovery, ugly but effective.

Anyway, at 51 I'm not getting any quicker with reflexes. I also ski a 164 cm slalom ski in the bumps, so I have less ski to "squeeze" through tight spots.

Our bumps are ridiculously icy here in SW Pa. Falling is not a very desirable thing right now. The slower and more control I can accomplish the better.
post #9 of 326
Hey Pierre, isn't it true that "problem with bumps" mostly means "backseat"?
post #10 of 326
hmm. I actually don't think PMTS current books do really prepare skiers for hard core bump skiing at all, but on the other hand I do not think the answer is to avoid carving either. But wait.. my definition of carving includes the possibility that you will be drifting or brushing a bit too. some Epic folks say that is skidding. So fine. To avoid a debate about what constitutes a carve, I will call it skidding for now. SKID TURN, down the backside of each bump. That is easier said then done if you have any speed at all. An awful lot of skiers are pretty good about absorbing the front side impact of a mogul, but then their skis are very light on the snow if not airborne down the backside of the mogul(its the backside and also the side of it). You have to EXTEND your legs as you cross the top of the mogul...extending your feet, toes first, down into the next trough. At the same time as you are extending, you should be getting on the edges and starting to try to carve a turn (oops, I mean skid a turn). The point of this is that you can control your speed the entire time. You don't have to wait until the top of each bump to do a massive hockey stop type of move to slow down and absorb at the time same time. Rather you can be controlling your speed the entire time. I would say this is especially important in ice bumps (which as the other person said..what are you doing in ice bumps? You may lose body parts that way).

Anyway, think about skiing the troughs instead of skiing the bumps. Aim for the troughs and extend your feet down into them (and relax to absorb the bumps too of course). And as you're extending, use your PMTS technique to edge and "brush carve". Conceptually, that is the high-C part of a turn according to PMTS. Use that part of the bump to control your speed in addition to the top of the next bump. Your slam into the next bump will be easier also this way.

If you're just trying to ski down some tight zipper line like the guys on the olympics and they are tight, deep, ice bumps.. My only advice, seek psychiatric help.
post #11 of 326
I seem to run into a dillemma, especially on icy bumps.

There are two ways to contact the frontside of a bump. Your skis can contact (and your knees absorb) the lower part of the bump (closest to the trough). This helps you stay in your line but it isn't too effective at speed checking since the lowest part of the bump is small and won't stop your momentum much (there isn't much to absorb). This would be taking the line that water would take flowing down the hill.

Or your skis can contact the higher part of the bump. This will help you speed check more because there is more snow under your skis. However, after you absorb the bump, your skis are so high up that you literally have to fall into the trough to stay in your line. This action of falling and absorbing the fall puts me completely off balance and I am screwed from there on.

So how do I solve it?
post #12 of 326
Thread Starter 
thanks for all replies. Seems like anytime somebody mentions PMTS, PSIAA or anything prefixed with PS or P then the subject becomes teritory for another religious war.
I've been watching 'ski instructors' @ K over past few months and unless I'm missing something most of them (when being watched from the chairlift) come down in the same 'book' style. Nothing attractive, moving down the slope, squared front, semi carving/semi slipping slow arches. Not very dynamic. None of them set the edges, none of them dig deep trenches.. So having said that, how could I trust them to teach me how to do the bumps.
I've seen DiPiro book floating around and after my experience/progression from Breakthrough on Skis to PMTS and, I think being somewhat succesfull, although not to the fullest, I'll spend rest of this season and maybe next one to try to get the bump technique out of it... Any used around?

Again, thanks for all replies.
post #13 of 326
Mrzinwin, keep your skis on the snow all the time. Whenever they are on the snow you can control your speed. If they are in the air, you can't do anything but wait until they are on the snow again to turn or slow down. Keep them on the snow. You do that by absorbing the bumps and extending into the troughs and timing your turns appropriately. Its synergistic too, in that as you are able to slow yourself down more consistently, you're more easily able to find your line, absorb and extend efficiently, etc.. which in turn makes it easier for you to keep your skis on the snow, which in turn makes it easier for you to make nice round turns.

Keram, the vast majority of ski instructors are not hot mogul skiers. the upper level instructors can ski them competently. Although they may not be skiing them as dynamically as you would like to ski them, the concepts they are using are absolutely what you want to learn if you want to master the bumps. The fact that they don't look so dynamic is somewhat proof that they are in complete control the entire time..they are "smooth". They are controlling their speed, absorbing and extending, keeping their skis on the snow. They make it look so simple it looks like it might be boring huh? he heh. they are just skiing smooth. If you learn how to ski the bumps smooth, you can speed it up as much as you want and be more dynamic. The key is having control of your skis at all times. You can only really control them if they are pressuring into the snow.

As you pointed out, line selection is also key...and timing and pole plants and all kinds of stuff. Get some lessons, ask for a LIII certified instructor that knows bumps. You will absolutely walk away with some new concepts that will make you a better bump skier.
post #14 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB
Hey Pierre, isn't it true that "problem with bumps" mostly means "backseat"?
If I had to pick one thing, yes. The second thing I would pick is timing, rushing the top part of the turn.
post #15 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
thanks for all replies. Seems like anytime somebody mentions PMTS, PSIAA or anything prefixed with PS or P then the subject becomes teritory for another religious war.
I've been watching 'ski instructors' @ K over past few months and unless I'm missing something most of them (when being watched from the chairlift) come down in the same 'book' style. Nothing attractive, moving down the slope, squared front, semi carving/semi slipping slow arches. Not very dynamic. None of them set the edges, none of them dig deep trenches.. So having said that, how could I trust them to teach me how to do the bumps.
Ugh Oh keram, you just unzipped your fly and told thousands of instructors they suck. Ogh Oh, you are not an inocent poster anymore. Here come dah PSIA pOlice.
post #16 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Mrzinwin, keep your skis on the snow all the time.
At least when your first learning. As you become more confident, don't be afraid to use a little leaping action when confronted with irregular bumps. It's often easier to gain a little speed and skip over an irregular section and slow down when the bumps get easier again.
post #17 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin
I seem to run into a dillemma, especially on icy bumps.
....
So how do I solve it?
Dewdman's approach works well for all but the nastiest boilerplate when there's no soft snow to be found anywhere in the bumps. At that point, another alternative could work for you, but you must have FAST feet. The key is to get your feet side to side quickly to get leverage off the sides of the bumps as well as the face of the bumps. Using this approach you don't focus on gluing your feet to the snow so much as jumping your feet from spot to spot (note the "jumping" is more of a light on the feet feeling). The key part of this technique is that although the lower body is performing a series of "jams" to set edges and bleed off speed, the upper body maintains a constant speed. Every now and then you can also throw in a stall on a bump top and grind the back side while you recover and look for a new line to take.
post #18 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by keram
I've been watching 'ski instructors' @ K over past few months
Keram,

If "K" means Killington, Killington has a policy that pros can only wear their jackets when they are working. You're not likely to ever see one ripping the bumps. If you want to trust one to teach you the bumps, trust me and get a lesson from Hoser (Keith Hopkins).

If "K" means another resort, the same thing could apply. If you mention the name, you'll likely be able to get another recommendation from a bear that knows from personal experience.
post #19 of 326
Quote:
Mrzinwin, keep your skis on the snow all the time. Whenever they are on the snow you can control your speed. If they are in the air, you can't do anything but wait until they are on the snow again to turn or slow down. Keep them on the snow. You do that by absorbing the bumps and extending into the troughs and timing your turns appropriately. Its synergistic too, in that as you are able to slow yourself down more consistently, you're more easily able to find your line, absorb and extend efficiently, etc.. which in turn makes it easier for you to keep your skis on the snow, which in turn makes it easier for you to make nice round turns.
Excellent advice, Dewdman. What we do to keep our skis stuck to the snow in bumps also helps that backseat problem, milesb.

[Why the snide comment about the PSIA Police, Pierre? I thought the point against PSIA that you have raised in past threads is that there is no PSIA Police to enforce standards and send old certs back for retrofitting???]
post #20 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
[Why the snide comment about the PSIA Police, Pierre? I thought the point against PSIA that you have raised in past threads is that there is no PSIA Police to enforce standards and send old certs back for retrofitting???]
Well, there are a few of us PSIA types that imagine we can actually do bumps and buy a decent turn now and then. Sometimes it's hard to take being lumped in with the poor shmuck instructors who do the bulk of the work teaching beginners (god bless em) but personally don't ski much beyond a basic parallel turn. I think Pierre was just observing that Keram had professed to being a follower of that other system and that the comment was effectively bait for a flaming "whoa there" response post.
post #21 of 326
Regarding backseat problem, there are two "tips" I can give.

1 - make sure you are focusing your eyeballs on two bumps ahead of you, not the one directly in front of you. This seems difficult to do at first, but once you get the hang of it, it will all of a sudden make it seem like you are skiing half as fast as before and you suddenly have plenty of time to make those turns and do everything you need to do. Your body will get used to the idea that even though you're looking 2 bumps ahead, you still remember seeing the bump you're navigating your legs around presently and you'll do the right thing. But trust me, looking 2 bumps ahead instead of the one right in front of you will do a lot of things...and one of the biggest will be to help you keep from falling in the back seat.

2 - Get your pole plants happening right. By "right" I mean by reaching down the fall line a little bit more and DEFINITELY planting the basket on the downhill side of each bump. Also make sure you are doing this early, not late. Not as an afterthought to the turn. You should be making that plant right as you hit the top of the bump and are changing edges in transition to the next turn. So many skiers think they are doing that, but really they just either plop the pole into the bump as they ski around it (aka, late), or they get the timing right but their pole plant is on the top or front side of the bump which will turn into a nasty blocking pole plant that will push you into the back seat.

So.. in summary, look 2 bumps ahead, reach down the fall line for your pole plants, plant on the downhill side of the bump and plant early.
post #22 of 326
ps - planting on the downhill side of the bump, BTW, does not neccessarily need to be a firm pole plant, at least while you're learning this. Just reach over the bump and lay the tip of the pole onto the snow there. As you pass by the bump it will lever into the snow a little bit. I know this sounds wierd, but its more important that you are getting your pole "plants" further past the top of the bump then whether or not you are plunging a deep solid pole plant. As you adjust your timing and balance and learn to move your CM through, more forward, it will become easier and easier to make those solid pole plants on the downhill side of the bump.
post #23 of 326

Vive La Difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
or they get the timing right but their pole plant is on the top or front side of the bump which will turn into a nasty blocking pole plant that will push you into the back seat.
Well........
It does not have to be that way. One technical approach to bump skiing is to use a firm plant on the front (uphill) side of the bump and use it to stabilize the upper body as the lower body works it's way around the bump top. The plant is established before the edge change and released after the edge change is accomplished. This can be done without putting the skier into the backseat.

Some people advocate pole touches on the tops of the bumps. Your mileage may vary.
post #24 of 326
I would imagine that for the vast majority of recreational skiers trying to get a handle on skiing bumps, and struggling with it...a blocking pole plant will end up pushing their shoulder back and them into the back seat. I hear what you're saying about using a blocking plant to gain some pivoting leverage..but in my view..that would be an expert technique.
post #25 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
[Why the snide comment about the PSIA Police, Pierre? I thought the point against PSIA that you have raised in past threads is that there is no PSIA Police to enforce standards and send old certs back for retrofitting???]
nolo, you have me confused with someone else. I don't remember commenting on sending old certs back or enforcing standards.

My snide comment may have a calming effect after all, who wants to admit that they are the PSIA police at the ready to expell all other approaches.
post #26 of 326
Never mind then, Pierre. I am confused by your last statement, however. PSIA expels other approaches? Hardly. I believe I have heard you complain that PSIA is too "anything goes" for your taste.
post #27 of 326
Short answer: carving works, but skidding is much much easier.

For further analysis I define the two terms bumps and BUMPS. There are bumps and then there are BUMPS. BUMPS are higher than your waist though seldom more than shoulder hieght on the downhill bump, and higher than you can reach on the uphill bump.

I have found that carving bumps is fun and fairly easy with 165 cm slalom skis, a lot easier than with 208 SG skis, but the easiest thing to do is skid/brush-carve/soft-edge or whatever you call it when your skiing sideways. Using a skidding technique in bumps is so easy, I think of it as "cheating".

For BUMPS made out of snow, I find that a pivot-entry (maybe aided by some air before hand attained by an exagerated old-style release) that allows the carve to start with the direction pretty far accross the fall line already is the best approach. The shape of the mogul can be also used to enhance the sidecut of the ski. I like to use this feature of the bump to turn around the peaks, skiing across the bump just down hill of the peak, then skiing through the trough and up the next one slightly off to the side and coming back behind its peak. Sometimes I just ski the troughs though.

BUMPS made of ice are a real challenge, but not very common. Scarving / skidding is easier than carving, but you need very sharp edges to affect any sort of directional control. Without sharp edges you will be bouncing off them like a pinball and taking a beating even without falling.

Bumps less than about knee high don't count; you can do whatever you want on them.

One of my favourite things to do when I'm feeling good is see how fast I can carve down the fall line dodging the bumps, until I'm going too fast and have to scrub off speed somehow. Beware this is a game that has consequences if you push it too far.

PS there was not enough snow for BUMPS to grow in southern Ontario this year ; I finally got around to buying my own short skis.
post #28 of 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Never mind then, Pierre. I am confused by your last statement, however. PSIA expels other approaches? Hardly. I believe I have heard you complain that PSIA is too "anything goes" for your taste.
You got my meanings backwards nolo. The thing I like about PSIA is the diverse selection of tools in the concepts approach. I think you will find many threads where I have expressed that before. I refer to the PSIA police as the ones who trash the minute you get to far off the centerline exam discussion.

The thing I like about PMTS is the focused approach. You will also find threads where I have expressed that opinion.

Select the right tool/approach for the student. I have no intention of having it as "PSIA or PMTS but not both". I have no intentions of pouring cement around any of my ideas. If that is confusing so be it.
post #29 of 326
I would defend to the death your right to change your mind, Pierre.
post #30 of 326
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Ugh Oh keram, you just unzipped your fly and told thousands of instructors they suck. Ogh Oh, you are not an inocent poster anymore. Here come dah PSIA pOlice.
reality check - my estimate is that ~5% of them qualify to be called instructors, rest is there for 'something to do'/wannabees/retirees/kids from local towns around/ - disagree?
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