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Exercises needed to get that "falling" feeling - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Kneale, if you're correct in your guess of what the examiner was looking for, my above execution of the drill would be far off base. I was going by DC conveyance that the examiner wanted full extension by turn ENTRY. Achieving that would leave no means to ensure the maintenance of pressure through extension as the CM continues to move inside and edge angle is added. That's why I focused as I did on ways beyond extension to manage pressure and forces.
Rick, I understand your question about the retraction turn a lot better now.

I made a possibly mistaken immediate assumption that full extension at turn entry was not the goal. If that is the goal, I would be curious why....

... although one would certainly get a very distinct falling feeling as they quite literally have to fall into the turn in order to generate any sort of angles.

That's why the "falling" feeling goes away as you start getting the up movements out of your skiing I think. Since you aren't directing your CM upwards any more than necessary, you don't have as far back down to go. It's a controlled drop rather than a toss and catch kinda thing.
post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Rick, I understand your question about the retraction turn a lot better now.

I made a possibly mistaken immediate assumption that full extension at turn entry was not the goal. If that is the goal, I would be curious why....
Cuz dah man wants to pass a PSIA exam not a PMTS exam.
post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Cuz dah man wants to pass a PSIA exam not a PMTS exam.
Wait, isn't PMTS just PSIA with a new name? This stuff has been around for years.

I'm really trying not to sound like the PMTS broken record though.

...here we go...
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Rick, I understand your question about the retraction turn a lot better now.

I made a possibly mistaken immediate assumption that full extension at turn entry was not the goal. If that is the goal, I would be curious why....
Actually, I have the same question. I'm all for doing drills that take students out of the realm of strict efficiency, when a specific purpose is being pursued. Do it all the time. If in fact I've interpreted the execution of this one correctly, I'd be curious to here the philosophy and purpose behind it.
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
I'm really trying not to sound like the PMTS broken record though.
At least you are honest. What you have to understand, as strange as it may sound, is that a good percentage of the skiing public drools over someone who can do a letter perfect PSIA open parallel turn.
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
'm all for doing drills that take students out of the realm of strict efficiency, when a specific purpose is being pursued. Do it all the time.


I like the Weems perspective on this one. "Give me your best shot..."

Even if the drill isn't the best movement to use just going through the motions can expand your awareness as to what is better or different.

Maybe that was the goal?
post #37 of 49
Thread Starter 
I think I do pretty damn good open parallel turns. It's dynamic turns I think we are trying to accomplish.

The legs (new outside leg) locked exercise was just that. an exercise. The goal being to feel what it's like to be extended that far. I think Arc had it right in the "allowing" the CM to cross over. The extension I think we are looking for would happen forward and diagonally just as the CM moves across the skis. This would move my CM into towards the apex of the turn and just ahead of my feet. This should load the shovels of the skis and cause them to ook up faster. It would also generate greater edge angles quicker (using the whole ski design better)


I think I am having a clearer idea of what needed to happen after a day of skiing groomers (all day) while skiing with my dad. My dad turned 76 today and we skied 22K vertical on groomed packed powder. In light of how much Powder we got last night I was itching to get some freshies but I also wanted to spend the day with my dad as I did take the day off of teaching to spend with him in celebration of his birthday but enough of that..

As I played with sensations, and trying to use the full range of my extension and flexion, Here is what I found.

Extension by itself causes ejection from bindings..

Skating with your hands behind your back does a pretty good job of getting you fully extended and moving diagonally. If you can't use your arms you have to do something else to get your CM moving forward and diagonally to get good power out of a skate so you tend to project your CM by moving your shoulders towards your goal and extending your pressure leg as far as you can.

Taking this a step further, I tried to "skate" down hill without lifting either foot and with the hands behind my back. WHEEEE.. That's a strange sensation but oh so much fun. Add some inside leg steering and it was almost like making shmedium radius turns with tons of long leg/short leg action. Add the pole plants in and WOW.

Add steering with both feet and SR turns resulted.

Wonder if I'm on the right track? The turns sure felt different and when things came together, it felt really cool. I also found I had a hard time droping my hips back when doing this. I don't know if I was leading my hip into the turn and will have to get someone to video tape me or at least watch me to be sure.

When I took this sensation into the bumps and tried to start the "transition move" earlier and earlier (just as my ski tip started up the side of a bump) I found I could retract using passive or active movements. I also found that my CM seemed to not get bounced around as much and that I was able to shape the turns easier from the top part of each turn instead of the middle or end only..

Thoughts?
post #38 of 49
Thread Starter 
Retraction turns we are trying to avoid are the "sucking up" of both feet and then extending both feet as your CM passes over them.

I think the retraction of the old outside(new inside) leg and extending of the new outside leg at the same time is what we are trying to accomplish. Just that the CM needs to move forward and diagonally across the feet and not just laterally. To do this, the ankles on both feet need to be flexing with the pressure going diagonally "through" the cuff of the boot. (10:00 and 2:00)
post #39 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
The big factor here is using what Arcmeister wonderfully termed "allow" in the crossover. It's allowing the CM to cross over through a combination of relaxing the old outside leg slightly and extending the new inside leg.

I'd guess that what the examiner is looking for is a lengthening of the new outside leg to keep the inside edge of the new outside ski pressing into the snow.
I think this is correct. The leg's locked exercise I think was to get me to realize I was had more room to extend farther. Then the idea was to then make the move diagonally and extend THAT FAR so that the edges engage much earlier and begin loading both skis much more activly. By "locking" the knee without changing anything else (assuming we already have good ankle flexion) we move farther forward and load the shovels even more which will in turn cause the ski to hook up even faster and catch up with our CM which should be down the hill and forward of our feet. Provided this is done correctly we should always be just in front of our feet so that the feet accelerating down the hill will be what keeps us in balance.

At least this is my understanding of what should be going on.
post #40 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
I know that. Was that video of his test? No.
Not my best turns but I did get some video from the exam..

Short turns on Worldcup (Base of Heavenly)
and
Some steep deep powder over big bumps. Skiers right edge of the Face at Heavenly. Just off Avalanche bowl.
post #41 of 49
Thread Starter 
and the looser hips comment I believe was to get me to not "lock up" my hips and get me to get more seperation between upper and lower body. Turn my femurs without turning my hips and torso.. Everytime I "braced" against my legs without relaxing at the right places I got my hips square with my skis. Generally at the wrong time (in the end of my turn) which got me back instead of moving forward into the new turn.

DC
post #42 of 49
Dchan,

here i go again..daring to post here...

Let me first say that I am not a total PMTSer. I did not learn how to ski using that progression. I have been skiing 28 years, had lots of CSIA training as well as CSCF(race coaching) and numerous clinics and tons of skiing... I have only recently become somewhat interested in PMTS. And to be frank, I'm not sure what I think about the whole approach of skiing on one ski and tipping the inside ski, etc..

However.. that being said... Last night I watched DVD1 from HH and there was some imagery in there with WC racers, and HH broke it down into very very slow mo and explained how what they were doing applied to this theory of the phantom move. The very fact that he was breaking it down was very very educational for me. today i went out and made some of the best groomer carved turns of my life..just from watching that breakdown of the WC racers...according to HH... I don't particularly think that means that HH has figured out something innovative, other than a progression to get beginners and intermediates to that place without getting side tracked on things like wedges and stems. But his explanation of it was very helpful to me and it was broken down into a way that hit home for me.

I think you should look into PMTS a little bit. I'm not saying give up on PSIA or to go become a full on PMTSer, just check it out. Check out DVD1 very closely, maybe get the book and read their forum a bit

some other PMTSers have already given their feedback on this thread about what they think you should do in answer to this question and this is all covered in PMTS, along with a bunch of cool exercises to help you get there. By the way, I think at the top level of PSIA, a lot of those guys can ski like this too, but I think they have a difficult time trying to explain how to do it. I think this particular type of skiing and this particular type of transition is at the core of what PMTS is all about.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
and the looser hips comment I believe was to get me to not "lock up" my hips and get me to get more seperation between upper and lower body. Turn my femurs without turning my hips and torso.. Everytime I "braced" against my legs without relaxing at the right places I got my hips square with my skis. Generally at the wrong time (in the end of my turn) which got me back instead of moving forward into the new turn.

DC
Looser hips. Ok.

I would say you need to work on counter.

Those were some suck ass conditions for an exam. I feel for ya.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Kneale, if you're correct in your guess of what the examiner was looking for, my above execution of the drill would be far off base. I was going by DC conveyance that the examiner wanted full extension by turn ENTRY. Achieving that would leave no means to ensure the maintenance of pressure through extension as the CM continues to move inside and edge angle is added. That's why I focused as I did on ways beyond extension to manage pressure and forces.
My guess is that "knee ALMOST locked straight" is intended to get greater, earlier extension, but not to use up all the extension, just like you sometimes ask students to exaggerate other movements in the hope of generating a little movement.

I really like the idea of the exam being more of a learning situation than just an observation/evaluation of a candidate's current level of understanding and skills.
post #45 of 49
Since I'm not PMTS or PSIA, but almost 100 percent TST, I offer my apologies if I'm totaly off base, but after viewing the videos and reading the thread, I offer the following "feeling" I get when playing with this sort of thing. My comment is probably not useful for "open parallel turns"; I use way too much edging.

Near the end of the turn, last third, or sometimes right after the fall line, I let my skis continue to turn up the hill while I continue down the hill. I "let go" of my skis. I'm still controling them and maintaining their turn up the hill with my feet and ankles. On reflection the letting go must happen at the hips and knees. The skis naturally release and re-edge magically all by themselves.

Hope this helps, if not you maybe someone else.

EDIT: I realize that letting go and still controlling are contradictions; I'm still controlling their direction, but not allowing them to control my motion; it's almost as though they are no longer supporting my weight, and gravity is the only force acting on my upper body.
post #46 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Looser hips. Ok.

I would say you need to work on counter.
Yes I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
Those were some suck ass conditions for an exam. I feel for ya.
Anywhere, any time, any condition. Good skiing.. At least this day's conditions were better than the first day.

Day one was Windy, raining, and only 2 places to work. Only 2 lifts were running that accessed any skiable terrain for the exam.. A very long Steep wet / icy bumps softened by rain, and one short pitch of steep of crud.. Worldcup was pretty much slush due to the rain. We really didn't see any groomed stuff on day one. Medium radius turns (one of our tasks for day one) had to be done through the bumps.:
post #47 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
My comment is probably not useful for "open parallel turns"; I use way too much edging.

Near the end of the turn, last third, or sometimes right after the fall line, I let my skis continue to turn up the hill while I continue down the hill. I "let go" of my skis. I'm still controling them and maintaining their turn up the hill with my feet and ankles. On reflection the letting go must happen at the hips and knees. The skis naturally release and re-edge magically all by themselves.

Hope this helps, if not you maybe someone else.

EDIT: I realize that letting go and still controlling are contradictions; I'm still controlling their direction, but not allowing them to control my motion; it's almost as though they are no longer supporting my weight, and gravity is the only force acting on my upper body.
At this point it's not open parallel turns we are seeking. Your imagery makes perfect sense and it is something I have worked on and continue to work on.. I think I do get my feet pretty far around, Just not far enough and sometimes (too often) I let my hips square up as my skis move through the transition instead of moving forward, diagonally and down the mountain.
post #48 of 49

feelings - imagery

Since the imagery makes a little sense, I'm encouraged to add just a bit more. It's sort of like my skis are on a string at the end of the turn, a loose slack string. If I'm playing with dynamics, when I snap the new turn out it's more like snapping a whip than pushing a rope; some of the above video turns with the "stiff hips" remind me of pushing a pole. Just cut loose.
post #49 of 49
From the video, dchan, I see very little of the movement inside of the CM that I think your examiner was seeking. I also see a lot of the torso following the skis around, something which should not be so prevalent in the radius turns you were doing, especially with the bumps.
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