Slalom technique vs. everyday skiing - Page 2

ok, agreed. but i wasn't arguing the coaching method, i was arguing the final result and the existence of tip lead in those pictures. and as i mentioned, when i refer to tip lead i mean "the inside ski pushed an inch to a few inches forward".. that's what tip lead is, no? ok.
do those pictures show it? yes. are those pictures an example of a complete lack of tip lead (as vail99 was claiming)? no. is the tip lead excessive? no. great.
conclusion: pictures of WC skiers provide a good example of a practical/useful/correct amount of tip lead (allowing for the conditions, ex speed, inclination of slope, etc).
is tip lead wrong? no! is excessive tip lead potentially a good way to end up in the backseat? yes. well then..

now the problems here are miscommunication. some of us are discussing the final product (some tip lead) and others are "coaching" - there's no tip lead (well there is, but if you try to put it there on purpose it'll be too much, so you just trust me that there is none and then it'll be just right. sigh. i'm happy my coach was old-school and had no problem giving us the goal clearly first and then correcting when needed.)

as for the frontal pics: i'm not enlightened and i don't believe you. if i have time maybe i'll take a few shots tonight just to prove that judging depth from a frontal picture is a waste of time.

jinx

If you ski in the east on a Saturday at 11:30, and you like blue runs, you will learn slalom technique.

The "gates" are moving gates though ... and some holler real loud if ya' "shin em" ..

:

What about the picture of Janica at the top of the page?
It look like her outside knee is almost on top of her heel.

So unless her knee is bent back wards tip lead.

It matters where in the turn. At the same place the frontal shot is taken there is no tip lead. There is after that though!

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2004-sl-2.html

We have beat this to death in many other threads.

There is no way way to ski with NO, -0- , inside tip lead. It is not possible except at the very top of the turn in transition when you come neutral in a crossunder. As your angles increase you must shuffle your inside foot faorwrd some (not a ridiculous, awkward amount) to allow room for your outside foot, knee and lower leg, plus you need to have a fair amount of counter to achieve high edge angles or you would have too much weight on the inside ski and lean in and fallover. As your edge angles progressively increase so does your tip lead.

Pushing the outside foot forward is no solution, it puts you foot in front of you hips and does not allow to pressure the front of the ski.

You need to hold both feet back under your hips but the inside ski will still lead the outside.

Once again, I came across a video of Phil McNichol and Bode addressing this very subject. I have explained what above what Bode explined while he was doing it on video. I have also discussed thios very subject in depth with my sons coach. One of the most successful coaches out there.

All that talk about the angle of the shots showing tip lead that isn't realy there is BS.

look at hermann in this shot. http://www.ronlemaster.com/ You can even see he has moved his inside ski, foot & leg forward to make room for his outside leg whil still holding his feet back under his hips! HE HAS TIP LEAD!!!!!!

Look at this montage of Rocca in slalom http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...005-sl-1c.html TIP LEAD FOR SURE!!!!!! LOOK AT HIS BOOTS AND LEGS IN THE 1st 2ND AND 4TH FRAME!!! That is not the camera angle. in the 3rd frame as he is fairly neutral in transition low and behold, fairly even tips but as his angles increase, YEP!!!! TIP LEAD!!!!!

YOUR ANALYSIS IS FLAWED YOU ARE MISINTERPRETING THESE SHOTS! FRONTAL SHOTS DO NOT SHOW THE RELATIVITY OF THE SKI TIPS!

YOU CAN SEE THE KNEE AND LEG OF THE OUTSIDE SKI BEHIND THAT OF THE INSIDE KNEE & LEG.

Hi- some misunderstanding here!

What you are seeing is not so-called "tip lead" where it is referred to in the initial post - I am referring ( as is I believe Vail99 ) to a concerted and concious effort to "push" the inside ski forward or "shuffle" as described earlier- this is to be avoided at all costs and I do not know any coaches who advocate such a move for all the obvious and detrimental reasons well described above. Now then the subject derailled a bit....

Now- when a skier is in high angulation ( hip or knee ) but now primarily hip, the angles created require the inside knee and the outside knee some spacing otherwise there will be blocking in effect. The spacing you see if a result of this basic mechanical movement NOT an active, concerted "tip lead" (or shuffle) as many here are claiming. Every racer and coach I know works to prevent to much forward extension of the inside ski in all phases of the turn. Yes, In GS due to the increase in angulation there is more "apparent" tip lead but this again is something very minimal and not done for the reasons questioned in the initial posting.

Atomicman- I agree with what you are saying- but realize that HM is not "actively" doing an inside ski shuffle or extension it is a result of the movements described above.

I just want it clear that teaching or coaching an active, concious, inside tip lead will almost always result in poor transition speed, power and balance. I think we all agree on that??????

As far as photo angles- to me its pretty clear and abvious as you can see the matching of the angles very clearly.

what you are saying is in direct conflict with what Bode said in the video, he said he shuffled his inside foot forward. the notion of no tip lead is a falacy that cannot physically happen in high level skiing.

LOL- oh yea I am going to listen to Bode's advice! Next I will be believing in Vlad's claims. I am also involved in coaching ( my kids are top ranked jr's ) and I have never heard any coach suggesting an active tip lead. My brother is a FIS tech delagate and a former coach for a major European team ( Sweden ) and I forwarded this thread on to him- Under the Sweden program he agrees that they never teach a foot forward extension as promoted here. Tip lead comes from angulation angles- not an active movement. Maybe thats why Bode ends up on his ass in almost every slalom and skis in the back seat almost all the time. Advocating a series of linked recoveries in order to try an go faster is a recipe for disaster.

Think what you will! At the time of the video (he was still on rossi & dobies) he was tops in slalom. He is also one the finest freeskiers i have ever seen

Also understand i am advocating a "reasonable amount" of inside tip lead not some big sagittal split!!!!!

but what has been said in a number of posts is that no tip lead is the ideal. this is just not physically possible and does not exist in high level skiing.

wow- thanks JamesK for getting it!

yeah, Bode only won the WC last season and placed 3rd this season.. of course you shouldn't listen to a word he says about skiing! you know so much more already.

wahnsinn!

jinx

back when i was racing we were tought an active tip lead; i don't know if it was because of the coaching style or because of the straight skis.
i still actively push my inside foot forward, but i actually push my COM formard with it, so in the next transition i am still centered/forward on the new inside ski.
and i am NEVER in the backseat... but i have i bruised my shins flexing the boot.

jinx

jinx, right on1

Does this mean he is a coach? Does this mean his word is law? Hey Benni was #1 and skis in the manner in which was suggested and at least his technique has proven to be reliable and consistant.

True- I was coached foot forward extesnion back in the old days with straight long skis as part of the transitional movement but today with the new gear and course sets its pretty much a non-issue.

no, it simply means that his opinion is worth considering, and i'd definitely put more faith in the theory of bode miller then in the opinion of some know-it-all 'skiracedad'.

Benni is #1, but I have come accross no information regarding his opinion on tip lead... just some pictures that show it.

jinx

Yes, indeed! I have seen these pictures you speak of! Tip lead by accident? NOT!

Agreed. I am not aware of ANY coaches who advocate initiating an active and concious tip lead. One of Bode's major problems is his tendancy to get knocked into the back seat by extending his skis in transition- I cant tell you how many juniors have tried to "ski like Bode" with the expected results. Ripping into skiracedad (who sounds more than qualified) and is correct in his statements is very childish. When the majority of the racing and coaching community agrees on something and its effectivenesss demonstrated at the highest levels and through extensive analysis would mean more to me than of of Bode's comments ( IMO from a credibility standpoint ).

To get back to the original post- Do not we all agree that "teaching" an active tip lead or "attemting" to conciously initiate an active tip lead offers no benefit and potentially more negative impact?

Let any tip lead occur as a natural result of the angles acheived from angulation, slope angle, course set (whatever!) as your skelatal alignment comes into play. To promote it will lead to inevitable bad habits at the Jr level and inevitable "Bode-ing" out.

And no reason to attack a poster who may be more qualified than you or even Bode especially when he is essentially an agreement!

one more note to think about-

We saw this season some very close straddles in slalom as skiers were pushing the limit. One of the reasons for this after much discusssion was the attempt to actively push tip lead in SL and get more pressure on the inside ski. Both Bode and Ted L suffered from this at Torino. You definitely do not want that inside ski tracking off on its own!

It was also Phil mcNichol in the video I referenced, not just bode.

secondly, if you think bode is in the backseat unintentionally, you really need to work on your analysis skills. He intentionally shoots his feet out in front of him at the end of his slalom turns. his problem is line. he is too aggressive and skis too straight.

I will repaeat one more time.

Their are posters here who say no tip lead is the goal and ideal. Many coaches also preach this but i am saying I am saying this is incorrect and not physically possible in high level, high edge angle skiing and is not even desirable. You can be equal at the very top of the turn in transition but as your angles progressively increase you must have inside tip lead to be postioned prperly over your skis along with the counter necessary to stay balanced and not lean in.

No one is saying to stick your inside ski way out somewhere on its own diverging track, you must still keep your shafts reasonably parallel and your skis tracking together. too much sagittal split causes all kinds of havoc and that is not what I am advocating.

You must pull your inside foot & ski back but it still needs to be ahead of your outside foot & ski. So again skiing with even tips through out the turn is not physically possible in high level skiing.

Once again- Agreed- what Jamesk, myself and others state is it should not be attempted intentionally but arrive from skiers alignment ( like you also seem to suggest ) and it is still very minimal ( like you also seem to suggest ).

RE: Bode: whether you call it an intentional tip lead or a foot forward extension, a shuffle, a thrust, or any new word dreamed up by Chad Fleisher the result is often negative. We promote proper alignment and angles- if the tip leads let it be for the correct reasons based on technique.

Next subject?

Agreed and agreed. The argument was whether this tip lead is concious or incidental. And it might be okay to teach 'no tip lead', letting it be incidental at a low level. This does not apply to any high level skiing though! Do you really think anything WC racers do on skis is 'incidental'?

jinx

ok- getting closer now. I am not saying its incidental just that its a result of alignment and angles. All high level skiers and racers I know have discussed it and most consider it a non-issue. Of course I and they and you are concious of it but do you really focus on it while you ski or race?

Like Harald said, "is it intent or result?" I spend a lot of time watching WC videos trying to figure this stuff out. WC racers don't think about how to ski when they're racing so I'd say most things we see are results.
When I watch videos one frame at a time I don't see a lot of lead until the finish of the turn. At that point the high angles usually create it. What I noticed at Lutsen (in SL), among the WC, Europa Cup and top NCAA skiers who were there, was a very active movement bring the unweighted foot close to the weighted one. Towards the end of the turn there was flexing of the legs to lighten the pressure and allow the skis to accelerate. This usually resulted in tip lead if the angles were high.
As for coaching, I learned the idea of not trying to teach the details of movements but rather feelings many years ago from a coach who had put several athletes on the US team. A lot of the things Harald talks about fall under this catagory too. It's a pretty standard proceedure among top coaches that I've had the oppertunity to be around.

what you are describing is "unconcious competence", this comes for incessant hours of "concious practice" to make a ski unconciously competent!

No they are not thinking of it while they are racing, but most if not all of the technique they use they have thought about in the ridiculous number of hours they have practiced!

My point in this post is that many are in the NO TIP LEAD CAMP. What I am have been saying is that is not attainable at high level, highly inclinated skiing.

If you are very upright over your skis with no inclination and you have a lot of tip lead that is a problem. But to say WC racers ski with no tip lead is is just a fallacy!

I think I said in my first post, "I don't deny it exists". I was trying to point out that it varies greatly throughout the turn. It certainly can't be avoided at the part of the turn you describe but that's just one small portion. When talking about movements there are very few absolute positions. Pictures only show a very small fraction of a second in time. Georgio Rocca shuffles his feet, as described in the first post, at times. It doesn't appear to be intent but rather some balance adjustment and most of the time he doesn't do it.

Read the proof

Want proof, just read, "Anyone can be an Expert Skier".

Slatz,, as you know because you have skied with Harald, he talks about many different needs for different skiers. I first found a reference about inside boot or foot pull back in Harald’s first book, “Anyone can be an Expert Skier”. He clearly is far ahead of the thinking in the US coaches association and the ski teaching community. He knew and taught foot pull back for skiers with certain problems decades ago; those specifically in backseat positions and artificial countered positions. He states clearly that counter is not a position it’s a constantly changing complimentary movement of the upper to lower body. If the free foot is forward or if the free foot is creating a locked counter this is a misunderstood concept of counter and balance.


Having observed ski racers from many clubs and having had two of my own kids go through the USAA levels to the Nor-Am’s, I can comment on what young racers do. Many racers don’t have good coaching. Many coaches across the country in all kinds of programs don’t see or know what is current in ski racing. I would not look to junior racers for my technical grounding. I was and so were my children fortunate to discover Harald over fifteen years ago. He made the difference in their skiing.

Just as there are good PSIA, PMTS instructors there are poor PSIA or PMTS skiers, there is also a large discrepancy between good junior racers and bad junior racers. In a group of a thousand junior racers (j4 level) only two or three will ever reach a FIS race or junior Olympic podium, even fewer reach the US ski team or international competition. So junior racing is not a guaranteed standard of excellent technique or skiing.

As Slatz commented about the racers at Lutsen, they aggressively pull the old stance foot toward the new stance foot. I think I read that somewhere about eight years ago, by a former USSA development coach whose name is Harald Harb.

I know I’m going to get slammed by the Harald Harb and PMTS haters, but it doesn’t matter, as after you see all the proof, any reasonable intelligent evaluator of ski technique and skiing development can see that Harald has been right all these years, and you have to begin questioning the pundits of Harb hating. Everything Harald has written is proving to be true and effective. If you still have doubts, you are not reading his information with an open mind.

[quote=SLATZ Pictures only show a very small fraction of a second in time. [/QUOTE]except for montages which show a clear progression.

I have always been a big proponent of pullimg the inside footback. but with that said, in the latter part of a turn and as inclination & edge angles increase are are at their highest you hcannot physically pull your foot back far enough to be even with your outside ski. Tip lead is ineveitable. And increases progressively as your inclination and edge angles progressively increase. I thought this was best shown by the photo montage I posted of Hermann Maier. He is clearly pulling back his unside foot under his hips but still has a very good amount of inside tip lead. it is certainly not some voodoo photo angle either. you can clearly see his outside leg, knee, foot & ski behind his inside. In fact in the 5th frame his outside knee is touching the rear shaft of his inside boot! you can also clearly see the bend in his inside knee and positve, forward angle of his inside shin.

So carv lust, you really did not comment on inside tip lead?

One more time. http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...04-gs-1-wm.jpg And yes i know it is Gs

But here is a slalom shot of Benni Raich.. the only place his skis are eve steven is at the very top of the turn and when he comes neutral in transition.http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2004-sl-2.html

And my point was they are racing the way they do on autopilot from hours of intense practice. you race like you practice. very little they do is unintentional even though it may be subconcious!

Atomicman, tip lead is the natural occurrence of a countered hip. It stands to reason that if the inside hip leads, the inside knee leads and the inside foot is ahead of the outside boot, there will be some tip lead. This does not contradict the need for inside foot pull back. Harald commented on this very occurrence in a thread on the PMTS forum not too long ago. As Slatz commented about what Harald says, “The intent” is to pull the foot back and hold it; in most situations it is beneficial. It is beneficial in these ways, it produces cleaner carves, maintains a forward hold on the hips and creates better balance management over the stance foot.

It is reasonable to believe that World Cup skiers are not always perfect, their inside foot can slip away and move forward, but that’s not the intent? In situations where either the conditions are so tough or a speed control moment is required to negotiate the next series of turns, anything can happen.