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Slalom technique vs. everyday skiing

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
Observation:
When watching the junior racer types freesking on their racing/ training boards (more when on slalom skis), I notice during their turning that the new inside foot is shuffled out in front of the new (to be) outside ski right above the fall line.

notes/questions:
-The above is contrary to what I've been taught/ shown/ instructed etc etc. where pulling back on the inside foot to eliminate tip lead is the desired movement.

->If I am correct at the shuffle observation, wouldn't the two skis be travelling on different arcs, i.e. the ski that is behind and on edge turning into the arc of the ski that is in front (as opposed to 2 parallel arcs when tip lead is eliminated?)

->What is the purpose of this move? Tighter turn?, more precise turn control?
->At what cost?...why would the non racer high performance skier be taught to eliminate this move?
post #2 of 72
First off, I wouldn't hold as gospel, what Jr racers are doing. Yes, a lot of them push that inside foot too far forward because they see that foot forward look in top level racers. What they don't realize is that they see it in GS, SG and DH, not in SL (except unintentionally). They are just trying to emulate higher level racers, but not doing it correctly.

However, one reason for inside tip lead is that you might be trying to excessivley counter the hips. The lead of the inside hip and inside tip should match. Countering the hips allows for greater edge angles. If the inside tip goes too far forward, then when you transition to the next turn, especially in quick turning SL, you'll be standing on the back of the ski.

In GS, SG and DH, where you build up a lot more force in a turn and have a longer duration, your body drops so far down to the snow that the inside foot needs to be forward just because the ankle flex is limited by the boot and you can't keep it under you. But in those circumstances, you need to move forward really hard at transition to get to the front of the new turning ski.
post #3 of 72
mak,

What you are obsurving is a combination of flexing (or holdiing back) of the inside ankle and foot and opening the ankle of the outside foot to keep the shape of the arc constant and to allign the hip over the ankle of the outside ski before the new turn transition. This allows the tips of the skis to be more parallel throughout the turn and the skiier is better balanced over both skis.

I encourage high performance skiiers to keep the tips parallel and not only to "hold back" the inside ski, but to also advance the outside ski.

I hope this answers your Q. in a simple non technical way.

RW
post #4 of 72
Mak- they're practicing a combination of old-school 'anticipation' with the inside foot.
what the pinheads miss is the fact that it gets the racer's skiheel underneath them, so as to create more inside steer initiation.
It's actually a very intelligent move.
If you'r ein N. Jersey, spend some time at MC South watching the racers as they approach the bear peak chair.
try to emulate their technique, it'll help you, me, anyone, with our skiing.
lemme know when you'r egoing, I'll join you and we'll have some exceptional "movement analysis".
help you think further outside the box. take me up on it.....
post #5 of 72
Thread Starter 
tommorow 3/2....till noon! It'd be cool to see the vlad school of thought in real!
post #6 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by makwendo99
tommorow 3/2....till noon! It'd be cool to see the vlad school of thought in real!
scheisse! I have non-snow stuffs i gotta do tomorrow. you creekside friday, sat and/or sunday? or tomorrow after 4?
i'll be working on technical stuff with my girlfriend's carving on those days...easy to find.....
i'd like to hang out and eyeball "MA" while watching the scholastic racers. some good ones at south.....
post #7 of 72
Thread Starter 
friday afternoon might be a possibility....if you happen to show up tommorow morn, pm me before 8am so I can be on the lookout........


also...season's almost over here. Got word down the grapevine that crik is lookin to close weekend of the 19th unless snow cover is good...south even sooner...
post #8 of 72
mak,

Time to head north after the 19th!

RW
post #9 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
In GS, SG and DH, where you build up a lot more force in a turn and have a longer duration, your body drops so far down to the snow that the inside foot needs to be forward just because the ankle flex is limited by the boot and you can't keep it under you. But in those circumstances, you need to move forward really hard at transition to get to the front of the new turning ski.
Not really!! just move new outside foot back. This may have been what makwendo99 saw and attributed the movement to the wrong foot. Maybe too much focus on inside foot?
post #10 of 72

Replying to my own Post

makwendo99
Try pulling back the outside foot just slightly just before weighting it. This moves the outside ski back relative to the hips and gets more pressure on the front of the ski. It's a simple way to get tip pressure at the beginning of the turn.
post #11 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by makwendo99
Observation:
When watching the junior racer types freesking on their racing/ training boards (more when on slalom skis), I notice during their turning that the new inside foot is shuffled out in front of the new (to be) outside ski right above the fall line.

notes/questions:
-The above is contrary to what I've been taught/ shown/ instructed etc etc. where pulling back on the inside foot to eliminate tip lead is the desired movement.

->If I am correct at the shuffle observation, wouldn't the two skis be travelling on different arcs, i.e. the ski that is behind and on edge turning into the arc of the ski that is in front (as opposed to 2 parallel arcs when tip lead is eliminated?)

->What is the purpose of this move? Tighter turn?, more precise turn control?
->At what cost?...why would the non racer high performance skier be taught to eliminate this move?

Generally speaking and depending on how junior, these skiers usually have many, many technical flaws. I wouldn't base any changes in technique on what I see a junior racer doing.

ST
post #12 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir turnalot
Generally speaking and depending on how junior, these skiers usually have many, many technical flaws. I wouldn't base any changes in technique on what I see a junior racer doing.

ST
True- We always try to emulate the currrent state of the art on the WC- and keep the skis somewhat symetrical. If you have too much inside ski lead then at the moment of transition you will be on the back of the new downhill ski-NOT GOOD!
post #13 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesk
True- We always try to emulate the currrent state of the art on the WC- and keep the skis somewhat symetrical. If you have too much inside ski lead then at the moment of transition you will be on the back of the new downhill ski-NOT GOOD!
that sounds contorted :. if you're leading the inside ski it should put you FORWARD on the outside/downhill ski.
post #14 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx
that sounds contorted :. if you're leading the inside ski it should put you FORWARD on the outside/downhill ski.
i think what they mean is that at the end of the current turn & moving into the next turn, you will be behind the ski that is now out in front of you as your inside ski becomes your outside ski.
post #15 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx
that sounds contorted :. if you're leading the inside ski it should put you FORWARD on the outside/downhill ski.
Think about that for sec. The inside ski becomes the outside ski. If the inside ski is in front and no other movements are made, and then that ski suddenly becomes the outside ski and is weighted, the skier would tend to be in the backseat.

ST
post #16 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir turnalot
the inside ski is in front and no other movements are made
well, if we're talking about leading the inside ski, then it's sort of implied that during the transition the neccessary movements will be made to lead the new inside ski.

jinx
post #17 of 72
You are right. If the skier is in a rhythm of skiing with the inside tip lead and shuffling the feet through transition, then all should go smoothly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesk
True- We always try to emulate the currrent state of the art on the WC- and keep the skis somewhat symetrical. If you have too much inside ski lead then at the moment of transition you will be on the back of the new downhill ski-NOT GOOD!
From jamesk's statement, I envisioned that he (James?) would be practicing a very quick transition, perhaps employing some collapsing of the new inside knee. To this with the old outside knee still leading would be, as jamesk said, NOT GOOD.

ST
post #18 of 72
We promote a powerfull edge to edge transition with no "lag" time. Just a powerfull extension to the new ski and edge. No leading skis!

Be careful when you look at pictures as sometimes the illusion of a leading ski is due to the angle of the slope.
post #19 of 72

What skiers on World Cup are using no tip lead?

What skiers on World Cup are using no tip lead?
Can you provide pictures?
post #20 of 72
When I see my kids doing that I yell at them. They're in the back seat and it (the foot) gets in the way of their CM's movement into the new turn. You can't tip your foot under you if it's out in front of you and you're pressuring the heel.
The USSCA video talks about "appropriate tip lead". While I don't deny it exists, as soon as you try to create it you've got too much. If the goal is no tip lead then the appropriate amount usually occurs and the ski can be tipped to it's shovel's outside edge. The CM can then go downhill ahead of the feet and the skis will follow. Skiing with no tip lead is something you ask the athlete to strive for, rarely does it actually happen. The task creates a feeling and gets the athlete forward on the skis.
As for WC skiers, when viewed from the side directly there is often very little tip lead during initiation and controlling phases of the turn.
post #21 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
As for WC skiers, when viewed from the side directly there is often very little tip lead during initiation and controlling phases of the turn.
Moving the new outside ski back 2 inchs will move the pressure from heel to toe. So I'll agree with that Slatz's statement.
When there is a lot of hip angulation in a WC GS turn there will be a bunch of tip lead. That inside boot has gotta go somewhere. In slalom there isn't nearly as much tip lead.

I think the whole zero tip lead thing is somewhat overblown. The main thing is to stay centered (fore/aft)on your skis. A few years ago when "they" were emphasizing no hip counter and equal weight on both skis zero tip lead was a big issue. I really think most people have more important technical issues to deal with.
post #22 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordtheBarbarian
What skiers on World Cup are using no tip lead?
Can you provide pictures?
Check these pictures out at Zoom:
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph...sl/index.html#

Notice Jean Baptiste Grange from France- tip lead and too much weight on inside ski. All others show quite balanced tip alignment.
post #23 of 72
And here are the girls...
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph...wsl/index.html

No tip lead!
post #24 of 72
post #25 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail99
Check these pictures out at Zoom:
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph...sl/index.html#

Notice Jean Baptiste Grange from France- tip lead and too much weight on inside ski. All others show quite balanced tip alignment.
what are you talking about : ??
that's not tip lead, he looks like he's about to take a dive.
"too much weight on inside ski"... no way! i thought weight was supposed to be on the outside ski - damn french, getting to the WC and doesn't even know THAT : .

you're using a picture of a guy who's either in the middle of a fall or in the middle of a desperate recovery to prove the evils of tip lead?! do you even ski?

actually, benni raich and the other austrians are showing some tip lead in the other pics (that's what tip lead is.. inside ski pushed an inch to a few inches FORWARD, not out and to the side (where's a head-shaking smiley when you need one?).

jinx
post #26 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail99
And here are the girls...
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph...wsl/index.html

No tip lead!
No brain!

(which of these pictures is supposed to show the lack of tip lead? the frontal ones or the ones on the podium??)

jinx :
post #27 of 72
Yo Jinx- I am looking at the same pictures and I see no significant tip lead in any of them- What are you looking at? In virtually every shot the tips are matched. I hope you are not being confused by the perception of tip lead due to hill angle. The head on shots clearly demonstrate what Vail99 is saying.

The picture of JB Granges shows the potential result of tip lead as discussed earlier in this forum. Too much weight on the inside ski and tip lead can have this result as mentioned earlier. During transition the weight on the uphill (inside) ski will be at the heel or farther back, when powering onto the new edge from this position the skier will often get tossed into the back seat and (especially on shorty SL skis) launch the skier.

I agree with Vail99 and what he is saying is well in line with all current race coaching programs- especially in Europe where I also work in the summers.

I quote from an earlier post: "You can't tip your foot under you if it's out in front of you and you're pressuring the heel.

The USSCA video talks about "appropriate tip lead". While I don't deny it exists, as soon as you try to create it you've got too much. If the goal is no tip lead then the appropriate amount usually occurs and the ski can be tipped to it's shovel's outside edge. The CM can then go downhill ahead of the feet and the skis will follow. Skiing with no tip lead is something you ask the athlete to strive for, rarely does it actually happen. The task creates a feeling and gets the athlete forward on the skis.

As for WC skiers, when viewed from the side directly there is often very little tip lead during initiation and controlling phases of the turn."
This follows what these pictures clearly to me and what we are trying to acheive.
post #28 of 72
http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_ph...sl/index.html#

Look closely.
The fist 2 pics of Raich show some decent tip lead on the inside ski, the two pictures of Herbst as well (especially the first one) and even the first pic of Shoenfelder shows a hint of tip lead.
There is no need to go into 'perception of tip lead due to hill angle' since they are pretty much perpendicular to the fall line (again, I'm talking about the first few pictures mentioned above).
Now, what's a "significant tip lead"? An excessive one? well then call it what it is and not "significant" :.

I wasn't disagreeing with what Vail99 was saying in his earlier posts, I was disagreeing with this grasp-at-straws mentality that has him showing a pig to prove the existence of a cow .

jinx


edit: how is a frontal shot a good way to tell the tip lead? i guess i'm slow, explain it to me please
post #29 of 72
The amount of tip lead I see is very insignificant and I dont think it the subject of the initial post here. The poster was refering to an active foot forward "shuffle." what we coach is to keep the inside foot under the body so that when you initiate the next turn transition you do not have your heel out in front of you which will cause a skier to get "back" and not be balanced for a powerful edge to edge transition. We have hours of WC SL video confirming this.

In GS there is some inside tip lead mainly caused by the skier being so angulated hip-wise they have to push out a bit to get their inside knee forward (we suggest under the armpit!) to pass under the gate. The goal is not to think of leading the inside ski but to give the inside leg some range of motion in order to clear the gate, allow maximum angulation and allow for maximum extension into the new turn.

In all the racers I speek with the all try to keep tip lead to a minimum and it will exist only in the areas described above (ideally!).
post #30 of 72
edit: how is a frontal shot a good way to tell the tip lead? i guess i'm slow, explain it to me please [/quote]

It demonstrates the symmetry and alignment of the skier and skis. It also does not show the hills inclination.
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