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Bode Bashers: 2 Questions for you! - Page 3

post #61 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Most don't even possess the awareness to recognize when their behavior is being shaped and controlled by exterior expectations, much less muster up the courage to reject it.
Most that do have the "courage" to reject it are unaware that is it precisely external expectation that drove them to reject it....

What I see from my peak (having listened to Bode ramble on the Nike site) is a worldview that allows him to operate at a safe distance from the external expectations. But Olympic expectations were different.

They pushed him to distance himself from those external expecations to the point where he was just not involved. He himself said that he felt nothing special about the olympics. The quote made him sound as if he had alienated himself -- the fire that was lit under everyone else, no only did not catch with him, but it made him bring out the bucket and drown any hope of success.
post #62 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle crud
... I think most of us are mature enough to see that if Mr Miller let himself down, that's really all the criticism or abuse he needs. He doesn't need it from us or the media.
Agreed. I've kept out of most of the Bode threads for this reason, but I do have some feelings on this that I'm going to express this time. Although he SAYS othewise, I do believe Bode feels that he let HIMSELF down. Did he try his best in the downhill? It sure looked like it. He was only .11 off of Deneriaz, who admittedly had the race of his life. In racing that difference can be a lot in placing, but in reality WHO CAN COUNT .11???? I can't even blink that fast. This was not a failure on his part, but an astounding run on Deneriaz' part. It sure looked like he was trying his best in the combined too, when he straddled the gate. Looked like he was trying too hard to shave those split seconds off his time. After this he started to look almost desperate to prove that he could finish the fastest, but the harder he tried the more chances he took and the more disastrous the results for him. He really seemed to be psyching himself out. With all the media attention on him it had to be difficult to have his mistakes broadcasted all over the world. After his last event he walked away looking very defeated and I felt sorry for him because he did not succeed the way HE so obviously wanted to. But that's until he opens his mouth, to the media and the public, making public statements that then make it sort of our business. Once again, I chalk a lot of this up to immaturity on his part. I hope he doesn't let all this negative attention and pressure end the sport he so obviously loves and is pretty darn good at, but just takes a low key approach next year so that he is not in the public magnifying glass by being in commercials, ads, etc. and just does what he does best - skis.


Quote:
I would never ski with Bode. Well, maybe I would for a couple of turns. After that I would not know where the heck he disapeared.
.. . me too. But I don't think he'd love skiing with me either : .
post #63 of 78
post #64 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfish
I see what you are saying. I guess my competitive nature can't handle the truth! I don't like hearing from someone that they may "take the season off"! I don't know, I am glad he enjoys himself. You are right the circus that would surround a fiasco like you described would add more camera time to the car. I just don't like an athlete telling me he didn't try. Just recently, Vince Carter, (NBA) said he was "taking nights off". I just don't like that. I am probably nieve, but I don't want to here it from a pro athlete. If a guy takes a night off, don't tell anyone! But a season!

Chrisfish
Here's a thought. I watch NFL games, but I'm not a huge fan - never actaully been to a game. Until a couple years ago, I had never heard of Ricki Williams. Now I know too much about him because of his "year off".

Pro bike racers skip races all the time and do things such as ride the first couple stages of a race, then bail. And they are very public about their intentions. I like to follow the bike races, and I guess the fact that Lance (admitted Lance fan) never rode a Giro or Vuelta or had no intention of winning the TdGeorgia (the only big race he shows up for in the US) made me a bit more chilled about Bode skipping a few races or not focusing on the Oly's. I think these 2 sports have a lot in common when it comes to training, focus and races.
post #65 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
There is no comparison between Ali and Bode. Comparing them is rediculous.

Ali's plight was with the color of his skin and the plight of his people and the belief that his religion didn't allow for him to kill people for a country that didn't recognize his rights as a human being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bez
I'm not saying Bode Miller is another Ali, but I'll still defend his right to say whatever he damn pleases on principle alone.
I purposely didn't bring up the race/civil rights issue, because those aren't the only things Ali talked about. He said whatever was on his mind, on a vast variety of topics, some serious, some not, and that is where I draw my comparison from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
Ali is a civil rights hero and an ambassador to all people.

Bode is a different story.
You confirm my point about how history often rewrites itself. Ali is considered a hero by white people NOW,when it is socially acceptable and easy to do so, but back in the 60's he was just as likely called an "uppity n____er", including by some of those who would now publicly applaud him. Although this is all rather unrelated to the topic at hand, surely you aren't suggesting that someone have some sort of political/civil rights/heroism agenda in order to have an opinion that is worth defending as free speech?
post #66 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bez
You confirm my point about how history often rewrites itself. Ali is considered a hero by white people NOW,when it is socially acceptable and easy to do so, but back in the 60's he was just as likely called an "uppity n____er", including by some of those who would now publicly applaud him. Although this is all rather unrelated to the topic at hand, surely you aren't suggesting that someone have some sort of political/civil rights/heroism agenda in order to have an opinion that is worth defending as free speech?
Actually, this may be mildly relevant. In 20 years from now, Bode will be looked on with great respect and admiration for his accomplishments by the same media that is chastizing him relentlessly right now.
post #67 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Actually, this may be mildly relevant. In 20 years from now, Bode will be looked on with great respect and admiration for his accomplishments by the same media that is chastizing him relentlessly right now.
Are you absolutely sure of that John?

If you changed the word "will" to might, I could agree with you. But,knowing the press as we all do, they will more than likely hound him for the next couple years.
post #68 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Most that do have the "courage" to reject it are unaware that is it precisely external expectation that drove them to reject it....
Excellent observation. And thus their choices are still not unencombered.

Leaves an even smaller pool of those who truely operate out of independent thought and free will.



Quote:
What I see from my peak (having listened to Bode ramble on the Nike site) is a worldview that allows him to operate at a safe distance from the external expectations. But Olympic expectations were different.

They pushed him to distance himself from those external expecations to the point where he was just not involved. He himself said that he felt nothing special about the olympics. The quote made him sound as if he had alienated himself -- the fire that was lit under everyone else, no only did not catch with him, but it made him bring out the bucket and drown any hope of success.
I'd speculate these thoughts may have some credence. Nice post.
post #69 of 78
Bez, About the only thing Ali and Bode have in common is that they both had disreguard for Olympic medals. Ali, who won an Olympic Gold in Boxing actually threw his Gold Medal into the river in his hometown Louisville, Kentucky. Bode didn't really care if he medaled or not, so he says. Ali's medal was his shining moment until he realized that it still wouldn't get him a seat in the white section of a downtown Louisville restaurant. Ali also gave millions to relief organizations in the US, Africa and around the world. Bode? Controversy, is the word that might actually group them together. Ali was outspoken about certain subjects including race and religion, made predictions about his fame. He might even have had a website and a contract with Nike if they had been around at the time. Bode? well, we know what has been happening since his 60 minutes interview. If he hadn't done the 60 minutes interview and did the Bode.com thing, what happened to his Olympic performance would have all been irrelevant. Just another good skier having bad luck?

My take on Bode, really, one hell of a skier. Doing something he likes and getting paid well for it. Raised in the woods by Hippies and homeschooled who knows how he would score on an IQ test. Not wanting the fame and celebrity status of being thrown into the limelight of winning the World Cup title and doing some tv talk shows. Not liking the paparazzi following him and the news hounding him till all hours of the morning. He has his own thoughts of how our youth should be coached and brought up,(reminds me of the Michael Jackson story of never being able to have a childhood). Constantly harping about winning not being everything, well then why doesn't he just ski for fun instead of the world cup circuit, why did he even go to the olympics? He has alot of issues to deal with. I wouldn't want to be him. I feel sorry for him right now, and do feel that everyone should just let it go and leave him alone. Let the poor guy get on in life, let us get on with different threads, I myself do not dislike him.
post #70 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
Bez, About the only thing Ali and Bode have in common is that they both had disreguard for Olympic medals. Ali, who won an Olympic Gold in Boxing actually threw his Gold Medal into the river in his hometown Louisville, Kentucky. Bode didn't really care if he medaled or not, so he says. Ali's medal was his shining moment until he realized that it still wouldn't get him a seat in the white section of a downtown Louisville restaurant. Ali also gave millions to relief organizations in the US, Africa and around the world. Bode? Controversy, is the word that might actually group them together. Ali was outspoken about certain subjects including race and religion, made predictions about his fame. He might even have had a website and a contract with Nike if they had been around at the time. Bode? well, we know what has been happening since his 60 minutes interview. If he hadn't done the 60 minutes interview and did the Bode.com thing, what happened to his Olympic performance would have all been irrelevant. Just another good skier having bad luck?

My take on Bode, really, one hell of a skier. Doing something he likes and getting paid well for it. Raised in the woods by Hippies and homeschooled who knows how he would score on an IQ test. Not wanting the fame and celebrity status of being thrown into the limelight of winning the World Cup title and doing some tv talk shows. Not liking the paparazzi following him and the news hounding him till all hours of the morning. He has his own thoughts of how our youth should be coached and brought up,(reminds me of the Michael Jackson story of never being able to have a childhood). Constantly harping about winning not being everything, well then why doesn't he just ski for fun instead of the world cup circuit, why did he even go to the olympics? He has alot of issues to deal with. I wouldn't want to be him. I feel sorry for him right now, and do feel that everyone should just let it go and leave him alone. Let the poor guy get on in life, let us get on with different threads, I myself do not dislike him.
I like this post. I agree Ali had a lot more serious issues to fight against, and I also agree that Bode has personal issues he has to deal with; hell, he's a young North American male after all. He's still in the maturing process. He just doesn't hide it. When I hear him speak, I don't hear someone who is an arrogant, spoiled star, I hear someone who is still trying really hard to be as self aware and responsible as he can, genuinely searching for answers to becoming a grown up that he hasn't come up with yet, and he's just looking in a different place than most. And so he makes a LOT of mistakes. Would I spout off every thought or doubt that came into my head to anyone with a microphone or pen? No frickin' way! I don't have the guts to be that candid and then to weather the storm afterwards. But he does, so more power to him.

My take on Bode is that he doesn't seperate ski racing from the rest of his life, in the sense that he encompasses his own philosophy of living with the philosophy of sport to come up with his own mixture, something he can look back on with as much pride as he does his trophies. There is something to be said about the process of doing things your own way, blazing your own trail, even when it gets you in trouble.

This isn't about me, but I'll just say that once upon a time I was a talented young racer. Obviously, I wasn't as talented as Bode, so I didn't "make it". As I was also a budding young artist and a bit of an eccentric, I also had a reputation for marching to the beat of my own drum, even though I am a quiet person who rarely spoke up to get myself in any real trouble. Nonetheless, the powers that be took a disliking to me, and decided that they didn't want someone like me in their exclusive club, and made it widely known. Eventually they got their wish and I quit because I realized no matter how good I got, they weren't going to choose me for their team. That's life. But when someone else gets a hard time for being different, or just themselves, naturally I will come to their defense, regardless of whether they are a huge star or a total underdog.
post #71 of 78
Well, I've given it some thought after having read a fair amount of Olympic and post Olympic coverage and many of the posts on Bode Miller at Epic.

Several observations:

Although Miller didn't shine per the media hype at the Olympics, he still remains the best American Skier since the Mahre brothers. Is
he skiing to his full potential? I suspect not. However, athletes in many sports experience ups and downs during the season or from one season to the next. They too find that their performance is often affected by celebrity/notoriety, burnout, etc.

No statement that I've read attributed to Bode Miller has been as shrill, whiny, disparaging, obsessive or rude as much of what has been written or posted by persons critiquing him. Considering all the circumstances, since winning the overall Men's WC last season, he has held up better than many others might or have. Though he will not repeat last season's accomplishments this year, he is still currently ranked number three in overall points on the World Cup tour. That is not too shabby.

So,
1) I wouldn't consider him a failure, and
2) Though I don't expect ever to ski with him, I certainly wouldn't turn such an opportunity down.

Edit: Typos.
post #72 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Now,,, your turn. I posted countless times to this topic, in multiple threads. I went to great lengths, and great efforts, to express my feelings on this topic via the personal perspective from which I chose to address it. Do you understand where I'M coming from? Can you find any truth or value in MY message? Can you view our valley from MY peak, and articulate what you see?
I do understand the perspective you're coming from, Rick. I think you know from my posts in prior threads that I agree with a lot of what you've shared from the coach's view, and that I respect your wisdom on that view.

I just think we have no business talking about Mr Miller the way many people in here are doing it. If I were lucky enough to have been he, I would likely have behaved as he is/has.

I have never been a competitor of the rank and stripe Mr Miller has been. It's not where my head is, it's not where my goals are. I don't aspire to be the world's best ANYTHING except the world's best ME. that's good enough for me. it's all I can ever expect.

it's all anyone ever should expect.

other perspectives can differ, but you'd better believe that if anyone tries to tell me, unsolicited, what kind of person I can or should be, in any corner of my life, I will rail hard against that person for an intrusion and invasion of my privacy.

and IMO that is as it should be.
post #73 of 78
I find the public crucifixion of Miller to be incomprehensible. The man is quite brilliant, but now he is being attacked on all sides, it seems.

As far as I can make out, it all started with the "skiing wasted" comment, on a tabloid TV show. Did that have a wider range of people noticing him for the first time? Maybe. Then the rest of the media got interested, and I'm not sure if they deliberately reported controversial comments by Miller, or if he constantly makes inflammatory comments.

Last year I watched Bode on the Bus, and quite liked his penchant for saying what he thought (he was often grumbling, which is fine by me but many people get upset with people who are "negative"). Has this hung him?

It does seem like a pack of angry people, but are they reacting to something constructed for them (by the media) to react against? I imagine Miller himself is shocked at the sudden interest in him and anger toward him.
post #74 of 78
1. No
2. Can I have your throw away trim?

Seriously there are few things of a non-monetary nature that I would rather have than a day of skiing with Bode. F&ck everything else, I think it would be awesome to just spend the day with him. Just to see his opinion on random things that would come up - forget olympics and what not, just random shit.
post #75 of 78
I don't want to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone here, especially someone I respect so much, but why is it ok to bash to death our President, Vice President and countless others, but it is wrong to say what one feels about a skier, Bode?

What makes Bode above personal attacks?
post #76 of 78
The President and his Administration, Congress, the courts and state and local governments daily make public policy that carries the potential to change many of our lives in very real ways for better or worse. In the process, when the stakes are high intellectual disagreements can become passionate and spill over into the realm of pure emotion. It comes with the territory, fair or otherwise.

I'm not sure that Bode Miller actually can threaten, reward or effect dramatic change in most of our lives. Because he is a public figure, we can elect to criticize him anyway as well as others, but I'm unconvinced that much constructive comes of it. In fact, sometimes it says more about us than the target of our venom.

So, if it's unnecessary and little if anything constructive comes of it, why get so carried away? If we all went about criticizing each other as vociferously and shrilly as we do with a certain athlete and other celebrities, I don't think that our neighborhoods and communities would be very pleasant places to be.
post #77 of 78
When Bode decided to take his personal philosophy public through a website and a book he opened himself up to personal critique and criticism.

If he wanted to remain just a celebrity sports star, he should have declined interviews and taking millions in sponsor commercial endeavors.

Just like Terrel Owens, Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds and countless other big name atheletes who are surrounded by controversy, they are open to public critism and debate.
post #78 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
When Bode decided to take his personal philosophy public through a website and a book he opened himself up to personal critique and criticism.

A: I agree and his personal philosophy is open to fair comment though his philosophy doesn't affect my life nearly as much as as our political leaders.


If he wanted to remain just a celebrity sports star, he should have declined interviews and taking millions in sponsor commercial endeavors.

A: His commercial contracts are tied to his status as an athlete more than his personal philosophy, I think. If he doesn't perform, I can't imagine Atomic or Nike continuing to pay him whatever they do because they admire his philosophy.

Stenmark was roundly criticized by the press for years for doing just what you suggest-avoiding interviews and being too taciturn when he did give them. He was also called brooding and aloof, fairly or not. But, he was a great skier. See "Stenmark" by Armando Trovati, Pentaphoto Press.


Just like Terrel Owens, Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds and countless other big name athletes who are surrounded by controversy, they are open to public criticism and debate.

A: I agree. Absolutely. It comes with the territory. He says what he says. We can agree or not. I just think that the volume and intensity of the criticism is disproportionate to what's at issue. I don't dispute your right to think otherwise.
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