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Hey Bode, Take a Hike and Don't Come Back - Page 2

post #31 of 138
2/19/06 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Ask me if I'm surprised over Bode 3 Olympic results. Never mind, I'm gunna tell ya anyway. NO, I'm not surprised at all.

Bode fans are attempting to dismiss his missteps as fluke things that can happen to anyone. A hooked tip, getting wrapped up in a panel, hey, it's racing, it happens they say. Well yea, that's right, it does, but it doesn't happen frequently to guys who are on their game. Bode is not on his game. His head is a mess. He's lost his focus, his desire, and his single minded drive, and this has resulted in him losing his flow.

Flow is that thing that empowers us when all the pieces are in place. A task is undertaken with mental confidence and the body executes with little need for constant acute attention to fine motor detail. Everything just seems to happen magically with little mental effort. When flow is lost everything becomes more of an effort, both mentally and physically. The body now requires more input from the mind, and every movement element becomes an event that must be thought about and forced. Those little mistakes that can happen to anyone suddenly begin to plaque the racer. This is what's going on with Bode right now.

It's interesting to witness the emotion in the Bode discussions. Some defend to the end and overlook or dismiss his recent behaviors that have led to his competitive fall off. Others are quite angered by him and go into full blown attack mode, and a few are able to step away from the emotion and take realistic look at the situation.

I think the latter approach is valuable, as it serves as a learning experience in regard to the factors involved in the process of achieving success, if such things matter to someone. The statements Bode has made about winning not being everything is right on the money, and something that should be stressed to all young athletes. But so should the idea of applying oneself fully to the pursuit of their individual goals, and in this area Bode is not serving as a good role model for our developing athletes this season. Not a good role model, but perhaps as a good example of what happens when someone strays from dedicated pursuit, and as such a good learning tool for our kids.

So what to look for in his last two events? My prediction is the GS is his best shot at redemption. The slalom is a huge long shot, as he just seems totally lost there in regard to line and feel for his skis. Just finishing two Slalom runs will be an accomplishment. The GS is his best shot, as no one is dominating that event like Ligety, Rocca and Benny are in Slalom, and finishing is much easier in the GS event, but still, I won't be greatly surprised if another fluky incident occurs.
Very good post Rick, a level headed analysis without being judgemental in tone.
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post #32 of 138
2/19/06 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Now as to clipping a SG gate. Everyone has the same possibility of being too close to a gate. It was a huge mistake, that should not happen to a racer of his caliber and experience. Just goes to show you he has lost his oncentratiion making a media spectacle of himself and working so hard on his beer drinking & non-conformity instead of his turns!
Here you are bashing the guy for going for it and making a mistake. You don't think kids pick up on your (and the media's) attitude that if he didn't win he just wasn't trying, is wasting his talent, or just plain sucks. It isn't possible that he's just human and makes mistakes sometimes, I guess.

I may not have much ski racing experience, but I race DH mountain bikes at a National/Expert level. And I DO see both kids and adults who feel the "If I can't win, what's the point?" pressure (I'm not saying they all quit - just that they stress over it). It's a shame, because they should be out there having fun! And people who have nothing but criticism about someone for being satisfied that they tried their best but still made a mistake or it just wasn't their day just make it worse. He's still a human being, racing against other exceptionally talented athletes. It shouldn't be a given that he, or any other athlete is going to win any event, no matter how prepared, strong, or fast they are.

EDIT: I can see where Rick is coming from. But hasn't Bode always been right on the edge of control, even when he was winning? I think that has as much to do with it as anything else. When you're pushing it right to the edge, you risk losing it - which would be my assessment of cutting the gates too close. If it worked it would be "Wow, that's how it's done", and when it causes a wreck it's "Wow, that was stupid." I watch motocross a lot - the fastest rider can only win if they can hold it together for the whole race. And they can only win the championship if they have the discipline to use some restraint and be a little more conservative on occasion to get consistent results. Bode tends to be all or nothing. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't - and he's very inconsistent as a result.
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post #33 of 138
2/19/06 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
The crux of your post was; You guys don't ski as well as Bode, Duh????

So you can't comment on his antics. Pretty lame don't ya think, Nice try, changing the subject to how and what the posters have done.

Completely off target. So I have to win the WC overall to comment on this subject? : rolleyes!
Yes you are completely off target. My post suggested 1) That people are living vicariously through Bode and that is an unhealthy behavior and 2) That there are people who are calling him a failure even though the guy has great accomplishments to his credit.

Has his performance been optimum for his talent, no. Why do people have such impassioned disappointment in him? Because if they can't love you for your triumph, then the mediocre will hate you for reminding them of themselves and that they never achieved levels high enough so that others would notice their fall from peak performance.
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post #34 of 138
2/19/06 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainiac
Hey Bode, Take a Hike and Don't Come Back
Yeah. Why can't he be more like that model Olympian from a few years ago; Alberto Tomba.
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post #35 of 138
2/19/06 at 2:21pm
You Bode bashers are on drugs.:

A fifth in the downhill just 11 hundredths of a second off the podium, a straddled gate in the combined slalom (while in the lead) after winning the downhill portion, and a spectacular recovery in the Super G after being in the hunt for Gold and taking a risky line..... if you really knew ski racing, you could hardly call that a huge failure.

Have any of you people ever ski raced? Do any of you appreciate the infinite amount of variables aside from technique that ALWAYS contribute to a win, a dnf, or a crash? Can any of you really appreciate Bode's style of skiing, which has always included taking big risks and so includes many dnf's and crashes or near-crashes, but can also make him lightning fast IF the variables are in his favor? Did any of you know that while Bode is capable of winning in every discipline, he has never come close to winning races in every discipline within ANY two week period, let alone at a major event like the Olympics?

I say NO to all the above. Sheesh....judging by the "outrage" at Bode's so called "bad performance", I think they should start testing the Olympic audiences for "doping" too.:
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post #36 of 138
2/19/06 at 2:30pm
A few days before the start of the Olympics our local sports writer who is in Torino covering the local connection to the Olympics wrote a feature story every day. One quote I liked:

"The city of Torino is suffering from a lot of polution caused by the overabundence of cars and Bode Miller's mouth."

....Ott
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post #37 of 138
2/19/06 at 2:56pm
Bez gets it, but Bode did come close to winning all five disciplines in a two week period. Between Nov. 28, 2004 and Dec.13, 2004 he won DH, SG, GS and SL. He could not win a combined during that span because there wasn't one.
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post #38 of 138
2/19/06 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl
A few days before the start of the Olympics our local sports writer who is in Torino covering the local connection to the Olympics wrote a feature story every day. One quote I liked:

"The city of Torino is suffering from a lot of polution caused by the overabundence of cars and Bode Miller's mouth."

....Ott
You're a crack up Ott, that's a good one.
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post #39 of 138
2/19/06 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
It is by and far away the minority that quit because of results. don't buy that Nike commercial bodeist crap, cause that is just what it is!

Bode is full of it! I have seen hundreds of kids come back week after week only to come in in the 30's 40's & 50's in a race of 60 kids. And let's be honest here, ski racing is brutal and in reality there is only 1 winner.

He spewed this "kids quit racing cause they don't win" crap in a NIKE commercial!

Be a Bodeist! Right!

Chalk it up to one more ridiculous statement. Ya know Bode, the fool speaks, the wiseman thinks! Bode, Keep your yapper shut & ski or run for congress or something!
I disagree with you here, the way I perceived that statement is that too much is put on winning at that junior level and I am not talking about just skiing but all junior sports. The kids should be out there having fun and not so result oriented. I hate "traveling teams" and the way the monikor os worn like a badge of honor.

Bode goes to the beat of his own drummer, he always has and always will. It is what we embrased about him when he was coming up, now some condemn him for the same atributes. If Bode changed and conformed, people would chastise him for being a sell out. Kudos to Bode for answering to only himself.
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post #40 of 138
2/19/06 at 4:32pm
In some sports (baseball is one),
something like 70-80% of the young'uns
stop playing around age 12-13.
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post #41 of 138
2/19/06 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
GOLD? OK! But send him over to the halfpipe. Let him try over there for a "gold".
Tanner Hall was right!
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post #42 of 138
2/19/06 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
Two olympic medals so far, most by an American male skier. I'm not sure where he stands vs. Phil Mahre on total wins, number of crystal globes, etc., but he's certainly one of the best skiers our country has ever produced.

Bode maybe a failure in your eyes, but he's the best we've got. Until we develop a successful ski racer (Ligety?, your sons?), I'm cheering for Miller, and Ligety, Rahlves, Schlopy, McCartney, etc.
I think you are almost right. He was the best. IMO, he's given up.

Sucking wind in the DH? That's a fitness problem -- he was not fit to race.

Straddling the last gate in the flush? That's a mental problem -- he was not paying attention.

He's not there either physically or mentally. Sorry, I would have loved to see him win every event. I've not seen an athlete with such incredible skills ever.

Darn shame he's not coming through.
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post #43 of 138
2/19/06 at 5:19pm
So all the other Olympians who are there and care deeply about winning or losing are wrong, and Bode is right?

If winning isn't important, why do we keep score?

I'm not trying to be trite, but to point out that there is more than one way to look at all this; it isn't black or white. Many here are ascribing criticism of Bode to the fact that he's "failing" or "losing," and that isn't the point. That horse has been flogged, but it was a straw horse to begin with.

Regarding the commercial: I agree that youth sports are a mess, but I don't think they're in quite as bad shape as is popularly portrayed.

The main problem with youth sports is parents, anyway, NOT kids who don't like to lose. Bode needs to address his commercials to the parents, not the kids. In my experience, most kids are perfectly able to distinguish between professional and youth sports. It's a professional's JOB to win. Period.

Which leads us into travel, or competitive teams. Again, a mixed bag, and it's the adults who need to keep things sane. I grew up playing on travel teams, and it was a great experience for me. It was a pretty bad experience for my brother, so I've seen both sides.

Travel teams should be about the competition, not the wins; they aren't in and of themselves bad. It's worse, IMO, for a talented kid to stay in "rec" sports and never face competition of the level he should. Then that kid only wins, and tends to become an insufferable winner and a whiny loser. Travel teams should be about seeking one's level, and if you're elite, you'll probably have to travel to find it.

As far as kids quitting sports at 8 and 9, well, did Bode ever think that those kids didn't really want to play in the first place? Maybe they'd rather be reading or drawing or playing piano, and their parents were pushing the sports on them (or, more positively, exposing them to multiple activities to see what the kids enjoy). Some people just don't like sports. I'm sure Bode (and most of us here on a ski board) has a hard time relating to that, but it's true!

I rewound that commercial last night and made sure my son listened to it, and then asked him if he understood it. He thought it was kind of silly, because he does play sports to have fun, win or lose. His (travel) soccer team loses more than it wins, but he still loves it.

On the flip side, my husband and I decided to keep him out of ski racing clubs. He'd be darn good at it, but you know what -- why? Why not keep skiing as free and easy as it is? Why turn it into one more thing to be judged, scored, graded? He has enough of that with school and other sports. So, we may be losing a DH gold in 2018 because of it , but ... balance.
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post #44 of 138
2/19/06 at 5:44pm
Telerod, you misunderstood my point. Trying to win at the moment of a race is one thing but you certainly can loose a race based on the previous night, week, month. It's obvious his head has not been in it this year and I think that would be regretable considering the Olympics are undeniably the biggest event in this sport. Yes, his career up until this olympics has been amazing however, you can't dispute that this particular week has been a huge disappointment and missed opportunity. His career OBVIOUSLY is not regretable but frankly he blew it this week and after his career is over the cool "I don't care" attitude will go away and I bet he'll realize he should have done things a little differently this year. Unless he wins one of his final races, the general public will remember him as the guy who threw Lance Armstrong under the bus and then cracked under pressure on the biggest stage his sport has to offer. Ironic being that Lance Armstrong is presently the mentally toughest and prepared athlete in the world.
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post #45 of 138
2/19/06 at 6:15pm
At the level Bode Miller is at, winning is the name of the game, period. If he wants to have fun, then he can race NASTAR. He is paid to win, and look good for his sponsors.

A pro athlete is paid to win, not say winning isn't everything. If he were talking to a bunch of young kids in a club race program, then saying winning isn't everything is ok.


Everyone has good and bad days. An athlete that is not at peak for a given event will not win. Sometimes the training cycle gets out of tune and an athlete can peak too soon or too late.

He is better than all of us.
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post #46 of 138
2/19/06 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I think he should get GOLD for "Best save", based on his performance in the SG.

That was a spectacular save. I watched it over and over again in slow motion. He really did am amazing job of avoiding a huge crash. It was interesting to see that his boot heel was halfway out of the binding (sideways) on one ski.
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post #47 of 138
2/19/06 at 7:22pm
The biggest failure in this Olympics is definitely Michelle Kwan.

What was she thinking, getting injured like that?

I'm beginning to doubt she has the heart.
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post #48 of 138
2/19/06 at 7:47pm
can we get a Bode bashers forum please or at least keep it in one thread???:
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post #49 of 138
2/19/06 at 8:35pm
These are the good old days!!!!!! Make them matter!
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post #50 of 138
2/19/06 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John J
In some sports (baseball is one),
something like 70-80% of the young'uns
stop playing around age 12-13.
John, I coached baseball for close to 15 years. there are all kinds of reason kids stop playing.

Did you know at 13 the field goes from 60 foot baselines to 80 or 90 ft. (depends on the league) makes it quite a bit tougher and pitching goes from 46 feet to 60'6". Very difficult adjustment for some kids that age.

But all sports, lose kids at the 13-19. I am telling you their interests change for many, many different resons. they get interested in boys/girls, they decide they really like playing violin. In skiing, they get tired of freezing their fannies off in a speed suit. They get scared!!! Yeah, imagine a 14 year old girl deciding Dh, Sg & Gs is just too fast for her and she does not like it! saw a couple of those last season, crying in the star house!

I am telling you from 15 years youth baseball experience and 11 years ski racing experience, the majority of teens do not quit because they are not winning!

Just think you can play 3 innings of a 7 inning game and if your team wins you are on a winning team! Only one person wins a ski race, period. Everyone else lost. let's face it 2nd & 3rd are consolation prizes.

I will say it again, I have literally seen hundreds of kids race week after week and not bee in the top 20 and keep coming back for season after season.

Are there kids who quit because they didn't win. Sure, but it is the minoriity.

If you are not doing well, in your own eyes and not having fun, you are not going to spend alot of time doing things you are not very good a and you will naturally gravitate towards the things you are good at. Human nature don't ya think?

The game is more serious as you get older. And no winning is not everything and not the most important thing, but it is AN important thing! And the competition gets tougher. there are kids who are taking things seriously and have the desire to take it to the next level. If you are competing against these year round atheltes it is tough!

You guys don't give kids enough credit! If you want to have credibility with the kids, you can't tell them they are great when they are not and just to have fun!! They will just walk away knowing you blew smoke up there kazoo. they do not want to patronized!

The kids know where they stand in there own little sports pecking order between themselves and this has nothing to do with the adults involved. it is a clandestine kids only club!
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post #51 of 138
2/19/06 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
I disagree with you here, the way I perceived that statement is that too much is put on winning at that junior level and I am not talking about just skiing but all junior sports. The kids should be out there having fun and not so result oriented. I hate "traveling teams" and the way the monikor os worn like a badge of honor.

Bode goes to the beat of his own drummer, he always has and always will. It is what we embrased about him when he was coming up, now some condemn him for the same atributes. If Bode changed and conformed, people would chastise him for being a sell out. Kudos to Bode for answering to only himself.
those monikers and the kids who are comitted ahve a strong feeling of belonging, look on the bright side it keeps them out of the mall & off the streets on the weekends. where are our next Bode Miller and "The Rocket" supposed to come from?
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post #52 of 138
2/19/06 at 9:39pm
The american athlete was defined years ago. When one of them said "Second is First Loser".

Bode is trying to re-define the American athlete. Sadly, America isn't ready for him. As the american media keeps reminding us.
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post #53 of 138
2/19/06 at 10:01pm

Bode's place in history

Quote:
Two olympic medals so far, most by an American male skier. I'm not sure where he stands vs. Phil Mahre on total wins, number of crystal globes, etc., but he's certainly one of the best skiers our country has ever produced.
I'm not going to get drawn into this difficult argument about Bode - good points on both sides. But............. right now he is number two greatest male ski racer in history of American skiing. Phil Mahre is still number one at this point. That could change however if he stays in the game and learns to standup more often. But..........that's an awfully difficult tactical approach to develop consistency with.

- Fossil
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post #54 of 138
2/19/06 at 10:18pm
I think his "Bad Boy" image is grossly overblown. The fact that he skied after drinking is a scandal?! Come on!

I am pretty frustrated with his performance this olympics. He can ski fast, but it'd be nice to see him at least fininsh a run.
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post #55 of 138
2/20/06 at 2:38am
Vote for Bush
Bash Bode
Some of you people are really weird
Don't let your mall mentality
ruin your ski day perspective
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post #56 of 138
2/20/06 at 3:52am

Winners or Losers

For the record, I do not care if my kids are the best, or worse in what they do. My wife and i stress doing their best. We also try to tell them their best will vary from day to day. All of my kids dance, 1 skis, 1 plays piano and 1 violin. We allow them to try new things, but tell them that they have to really try it, and stick it out through what we have paid for.

We try to tell them that losers are the ones that don't learn anything from defeat and don't have fun playing.
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post #57 of 138
2/20/06 at 5:10am
Did I miss the anouncement when the Olympics became about feel good try hard atheletes? I know NBC wants you to believe that every single person who goes to the olympics has had some horrible struggle with something or someone just to compete... but that's only for their (bad) ratings. The Olympics is about the top people in a given sport competing on a world stage. It has no clause in it that you have to try hard, say the right things, be upset that you didn't win or adopt homeless puppies. If the 'top' people in the sport don't miss gates then why is it that the guy who was in first at the end of 2 runs miss a gate as well? Was he having a light flow day?

The fact of the matter is the media hates bode for the same reason they hate Bobby Knight. He doesn't give $.02 about what they think or say... he learned a very long time ago about sticks and stones. The fact that the media doesn't get to Bode places a giant bullseye on his back and as soon as the first thing goes wrong it's the end of the world.

Frankly, downhill skiing is not a team sport. If it was a team sport, you could make an argument about his unconventional style disrupting the performance of his fellow teammates; however, in skiing you have no team.
Some may think Bode may be similar to TO(which he isn't), but it doesn't matter.

If the guy is good enough to qualify for the olympics based on 'on field' or 'on mountain' actions that's all that matters to me. Everyone forgets that sport was created for entertainment and exercise, not for gambling or international phalis measuring contests. If he wants to train hard enough to get to the olympics but doesn't feel like winning the olympics is all that necessary - more power to him. You can have his spot as soon as you beat him down the hill... which from the looks of things only 4 other guys in the world can do.

If you want to talk about a guy who is actually 'hurting' the USA in their hunt for athletic 'superiority' lets talk about Shawnee Davis. The guy refuses to train in Salt Lake where the rest of the US 'Team' trains. He chooses to train in Calgary. Not because he lives there (he's a chicagoin) but he just doesn't like his team mates. He also refused to skate a team event that would have most likely netted them a medal, however he had a race 3, yes three, days later and felt it would tax him too much to skate a 5 minute race for the 'team.' Now all of this is well and fine (see other points in post) but this guy stated as part of his reasons for not wanting to compete in the team event (btw, Alpine has no such multi-man events) as that he never felt included in the team and felt like an outsider. Let's see here - you don't train with the team, you don't race with the team, you don't talk to the team - how's this work again?

Edit: I agree with stephenc, what was Michelle Kwan thinking trying to go to the olympics with out a hamstring? I can't believe she didn't go through with it... I mean the chineese guy skated pairs with a ruptured Achilies, and you only saw a 20 minute piece twice about how 'brave' he was. Come on Michelle, buck up! :

Also, if Bode's sponsors are unhapy with Bode - then they either pull their contract or don't renew it next time - but again at this current point if the guy qualified he deserves to be there. You do remember a time rather long ago before endorsements and other marketing items. You don't have to be sponsored to be a pro athelete. You just generally don't have the means, but it's still their option.
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post #58 of 138
2/20/06 at 6:09am
Someone earlier said his sponsors pay him to win. But really, they pay him to represent thier products - winning is just the easiest way to be recognized for most athletes. But with all the extra publicity Bode gets - especially with the spectacular DNFs and saves - it means their products are on the screen over and over and over again. I doubt they're really complaining very much. And sure there are people who hate him, but there are plenty who love him and I don't think his performance so far has changed much. He's always been a win or blow out of the course kind of skier.
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post #59 of 138
2/20/06 at 6:14am

Just to add a little perspective

I'm Canadian. Bode, alone, last year, won more tech events than our men team ever won. A single man, in a single season, got better results than dozen of elite skiers got for decades.

And even then, we are regarded as one of the best team on the circuit.

Think about that for a second before labeling Bode as a failure. Is he not skiing to his potential this year? Hell, yeah. Is he in the same league as Tomba, Girardelli, Maier, Stenmark, as so many people want to compare him to ? No, not at all, nada. Does that make him a failure? It shouldn't.
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post #60 of 138
2/20/06 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
The american athlete was defined years ago. When one of them said "Second is First Loser".

Bode is trying to re-define the American athlete. Sadly, America isn't ready for him. As the american media keeps reminding us.
I think we can separate the American media from the American people. I would hate to judge Aussies or Brits on the basis of their sensationalist press, y'know...

Every Olympics the journalists do this -- pick a person, a story, an angle, and beat it to death. I'm sure Bode realized this, and his not liking media attention *anyway* coupled with the fact that the Olympic media would be all over the defending WC champ ... yikes. I totally understand why he didn't want to participate.

I just think he's expressing it immaturely, or maybe just ineptly, trying to couch it in some ridiculous "everyone's a winner, results don't matter" mentality. I find that dishonest, esp in a sport in which the stopwatch is paramount. If he doesn't care, then he should retire. And I think he probably will ....

I don't think he's a failure, and I'm not sure any other "Bode basher" does either. I don't even think I'm a Bode basher, but somehow in this atmosphere of groupthink, any opinion that strays from unquestioning Bode worship has become Bode bashing or dead horse beating ...
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