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FIS rule changes for 06/07? Slalom tip deflectors...

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
This came up in another thread. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...042#post438042


Will skis that measure and are marked as 165 including the plastic slalom tip be legal next year?
post #2 of 23
See also:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=31536

"That's the method specified for compliance with FIS and USSA length restrictions, subject (next year) to a not-entirely-comprehensible caveat: 'When a ski tip different from the main ski part is used, the measurement will only be taken into account to the extent it covers a surface corresponding to the natural shape of the ski. The manufacturer has to mark the tip showing the limit of the natural shape and therefore allow an easy measurement. For the avoidance of doubt, specific designs of the ski tips as part of the main body of the skis are allowed.'"

It all turns on what "natural shape of the ski" means.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
See also:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=31536

"That's the method specified for compliance with FIS and USSA length restrictions, subject (next year) to a not-entirely-comprehensible caveat: 'When a ski tip different from the main ski part is used, the measurement will only be taken into account to the extent it covers a surface corresponding to the natural shape of the ski. The manufacturer has to mark the tip showing the limit of the natural shape and therefore allow an easy measurement. For the avoidance of doubt, specific designs of the ski tips as part of the main body of the skis are allowed.'"

It all turns on what "natural shape of the ski" means.

I brougth this up because I thought getting the 161s with plastic tip would be better for me since i'm pretty light (140)
post #4 of 23
I think this years WC SL does not have the deflector. I don't think the tip deflector 165 is legal. see www.fischer-ski.com
post #5 of 23
Apropos of some posts in the other thread (first one referenced above):

If you want the new rule from the horse's mouth, look at the top of page 3 (9th page of the file) here:
http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/equipment0506.pdf

What it means, exactly, is harder to say. Presumably, if you buy a 2006-07 race stock ski, you should be able to rely on the manufacturer's marking. That might be the case for this year's skis, or for non-race-stock skis, but that doesn't seem 100% certain to me.

I'd suggest you either (i) don't worry about the new rule or (ii) locate the appropriate person at the USCSA and make a phone call or send an e-mail message.
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh
I think this years WC SL does not have the deflector. I don't think the tip deflector 165 is legal. see www.fischer-ski.com
They do make a version of the WC SL that has them
post #7 of 23
Thread Starter 
Well since I can get the 05/06 world cups for $500 a pair and would save $1000 over buying new next year I wanted to get my skis relatively soon. Would I be able to comforatably handle a true 165 at 5'9' 140-145lbs for slalom?
post #8 of 23
I got two pairs of identical world cup race stock slalom ski's from Head this year, in length 161. All I had to do was ask Head to send 2 slalom tips to make my ski's 165, they screw on.
post #9 of 23
Fischer does make a 161 WC SL that is FIS legal, It is marked 166 on the tail.
They also make a 166 without a tip and that has about 2 cm more running surface.
For your height and weight the 161 is more than enough ski. I race with guys 6'+ and well over 200lbs that use the ski.
post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibee1000
I got two pairs of identical world cup race stock slalom ski's from Head this year, in length 161. All I had to do was ask Head to send 2 slalom tips to make my ski's 165, they screw on.
I'm not sure that would be legal this year anyway since by FIS rules i'm pretty sure they only count toward length if it is marked as being 165 on the ski.
post #11 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katabch
Fischer does make a 161 WC SL that is FIS legal, It is marked 166 on the tail.
They also make a 166 without a tip and that has about 2 cm more running surface.
For your height and weight the 161 is more than enough ski. I race with guys 6'+ and well over 200lbs that use the ski.
Yeah... the real question is will it be legal next year?
post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
seeing the combined today makes me want deflectors even more
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibee1000
I got two pairs of identical world cup race stock slalom ski's from Head this year, in length 161. All I had to do was ask Head to send 2 slalom tips to make my ski's 165, they screw on.
Who did you call to get the tip deflectors? I have the Head 161's too. I would like to be legal too if it's just a phone call away.

-T
post #14 of 23

Fish SLs

Quote:
Well since I can get the 05/06 world cups for $500 a pair and would save $1000 over buying new next year I wanted to get my skis relatively soon. Would I be able to comforatably handle a true 165 at 5'9' 140-145lbs for slalom?
The middle section of the plate can be removed to soften up the ski a bit. But that isn't such a great price sir jman unless that is including FF17s? Can't you do better on your team order in the fall?

Quote:
I think this years WC SL does not have the deflector. I don't think the tip deflector 165 is legal. see www.fischer-ski.com
Fischermh - are you saying the Fish SLs from this year that have the 2 bolt black tip deflectors with Fisch insignia and are marked 166 are really 161s? If so this is a good thing since I'm getting ready to buy a pair. As far as all this worry about FIS legal - I don't think it is relevant unless you are racing at least in the low points series in your region and are placing in the top five. These races even up to some NorAms have a helluva time even getting enough people to run the damn things. Again why is USA so behind the eight ball in supporting ski racing????

- Fossil
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Fossil
As far as all this worry about FIS legal - I don't think it is relevant unless you are racing at least in the low points series in your region and are placing in the top five.
The guy whose question started the thread is racing in USCSA events next year. Apparently, they piggy-back on FIS equipment rules (as does the NCAA, if I remember correctly). Whether and how the USCSA enforces what rules is an open question ... I'd probably ask them if it affected me.
post #16 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
The guy whose question started the thread is racing in USCSA events next year. Apparently, they piggy-back on FIS equipment rules (as does the NCAA, if I remember correctly). Whether and how the USCSA enforces what rules is an open question ... I'd probably ask them if it affected me.
Yeah, I just found out that it is not very strict... people get away on 161s so the 161s with the palstic deflectors that are marked 166 shouldn't give me any trouble at all.
post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Fossil
The middle section of the plate can be removed to soften up the ski a bit. But that isn't such a great price sir jman unless that is including FF17s? Can't you do better on your team order in the fall?


Fischermh - are you saying the Fish SLs from this year that have the 2 bolt black tip deflectors with Fisch insignia and are marked 166 are really 161s? If so this is a good thing since I'm getting ready to buy a pair. As far as all this worry about FIS legal - I don't think it is relevant unless you are racing at least in the low points series in your region and are placing in the top five. These races even up to some NorAms have a helluva time even getting enough people to run the damn things. Again why is USA so behind the eight ball in supporting ski racing????

- Fossil
I am not familiar with team orders... when I am on a team (let's say Syracuse for example), how much would I be able to get the 06/07 fischers for in a group order?

And yes, the 161 fishcers with the plastic guards ARE marked as 166 on the ski making them legal.
post #18 of 23

Syracuse ST

Your coach will have that info for you. If you can afford it is a good idea to get 2 pairs of ski for each event so you have training and racing skis. Again if you can afford it is the best time to get all your waxes for the year, goggles, replacement lenses, team skinsuit etc.

$ka$ching$ka$ching$$ka$ching$

Also this is the time we buy our rapid gates, panels, fencing etc.

- Fossil
post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Fossil
Your coach will have that info for you. If you can afford it is a good idea to get 2 pairs of ski for each event so you have training and racing skis. Again if you can afford it is the best time to get all your waxes for the year, goggles, replacement lenses, team skinsuit etc.

$ka$ching$ka$ching$$ka$ching$

Also this is the time we buy our rapid gates, panels, fencing etc.

- Fossil
I have been in email contact with the syracuse captain. He said that there are a few pro days when the team gets 40-60% discounts off of everything from two shops. One of the coaches is also a Head rep and can get the team head skis for $350. So it looks like I should wait until next fall to go on a shopping spree. Yeah, having two sets sounds like a good plan... i'll get ready to blow $3000 on new equipment next year, I can't wait .
post #20 of 23
Just as an aside. Your 161's with tips may be legal if they are marked 165. There is a big "however" here. Currently, if you lose a tip while on the course the rules state that you have to be DQ'd.

Screwing tips on to a ski that is marked 161 would probably not be legal especially under the 06/07 regs that state the manufacturer has to mark the tip showing the natural marked (unwound), length.
post #21 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Just as an aside. Your 161's with tips may be legal if they are marked 165. There is a big "however" here. Currently, if you lose a tip while on the course the rules state that you have to be DQ'd.

Screwing tips on to a ski that is marked 161 would probably not be legal especially under the 06/07 regs that state the manufacturer has to mark the tip showing the natural marked (unwound), length.
The Fsichers I am referring to are marked as 166. The person mentioning the head skis with tips would not be legal.

I remember reading the FIs manual and it stated that you had to have atleast one tip intact. This would mean that if you lost one on your run it would still be legal.
post #22 of 23

damned regs ...

You need to hire a lawyer to keep up with this stuff.

USSA Article 1.3.1.1 .......... The interpretation in a USSA informational release dated 2004 after an information session on the new regs indicated that the FIS would require a athlete to have both tips in place a the completion of the run or be DQ'd.

Granted, there may be an FIS decision that negates the one above but I couldn't find it.

There was also another FIS info bite that indicated something like .... the ski as marked by the manufacturer, may not be the actual unwound length of the ski. It was followed by another "wierd" sentence that almost seemed to negate the first sentence. A read, you may be on a marked ski and still not be legal.

For the most part the only ones who have to worry about that are in the top fifteen.

This in essence allows them to "cherry pick" and make enforcement arguable when it suits.
post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
fun. I won't have to worry about being in the top 15 of my division next year.
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