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MA- A contrast in bump styles.

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
video

This is a contrast of 3 different skiers in some moderate bumps.

MA is welcome.

DC
post #2 of 15
Here are some thoughts:

1. All three skiers are staying in the turn too long. It's as if you are practicing arc turns. I see GS turns in the bumps.

2. Face the fall line and stay in the fall line.

3. Even though you are staying in the turn too long, you need to finish the turn - Finish the turn and link the turn. There is a lag at the end of each turn. You need to finish the turn but add a dynamic transition to the next turn. This could be partly because you are in and out of the fall line. Sometimes I find rythm helps. Count "1 - 2".
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
Here are some thoughts:

1. All three skiers are staying in the turn too long. It's as if you are practicing arc turns. I see GS turns in the bumps.

2. Face the fall line and stay in the fall line.

3. Even though you are staying in the turn too long, you need to finish the turn - Finish the turn and link the turn. There is a lag at the end of each turn. You need to finish the turn but add a dynamic transition to the next turn. This could be partly because you are in and out of the fall line. Sometimes I find rythm helps. Count "1 - 2".
Would you give the same advice if this was an "intro to bumps" and when the skiers you were leading had trouble with speed control?

How about if the goal was to ski them gently instead of zipper line like most people think of moguls. Not everyone has 20 year old knees or a desire to look like an olympic mogul skier.
post #4 of 15
I haven't skied in the Sierras in many years, but your vids bring back the enjoyment of skiing around those magnificent pines.

My previous comments apply...the skiers are leaning back toward the hill, not angulating with their hips toward the hill and their shoulders tipped downhill. Here is a gizmo that I haven't tried but have heard good things...The Ski Coach

Skier #2 is doing a better job than #1, but...I see him absorb a bump once and get thrown twice. I much prefer retracting the legs to turn rather than standing tall to turn. #1 really needs to get loose--some way to separate the upper body from the lower body. One drill is to hold the downhill pole way downhill with the tip about 2" off the snow. This forces the shoulders to tip downhill and countering. The pole is planted from that position, then the other pole is held in that position until the next turn. How about running both #1 and #2 straight across some small bumps or ruts. Have them practice keeping the center of mass steady and very early retracting the feet to absorb the bump on the upside and extending the feet to maintain contact on the downside.

Anyway, everyone looks like they're having fun on a good day.


Ken
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
who said anything about Sierra skiing..

Sun Valley ID
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Would you give the same advice if this was an "intro to bumps" and when the skiers you were leading had trouble with speed control?

How about if the goal was to ski them gently instead of zipper line like most people think of moguls. Not everyone has 20 year old knees or a desire to look like an olympic mogul skier.
After reading Freesnownow's post I was going to say the same thing....
post #7 of 15
DC,

Now we all know that you can MA these just fine. So we'll be expecting your 2 cents before the end of this. And I would bet that these skiers could take more aggressive runs if they wanted to. I see an element of dialed back intensity. These bumps look pretty easy on video (only a couple bumps completely obscure the boots). The side view suggests maybe a 18-22 degree pitch? The snow looks fairly soft. There should be lots of turn options on this kind of run.

Skier 1 shows a relatively smooth flow and rhythm down the hill. The balance shows promise (steady upper body, hands remain in front of the body). The edge release includes some simultaneous edge movement. There is some rotation of the femur and the skis mostly move together in parallel. Pressure management is ok (not getting knocked around, tips regain snow contact quickly, uses flexion to absorb terrain, pole touch is used for timing). There are some balance and stance issues (hips behind the heels, hips/hands/shoulders alignment slightly off - slight lean into the turn, hips flex too much absorbing terrain). Edging issues are also a problem(skis generally engage near the fall line, there is some outside ski push off at the end of turns, there is a slight up move at initiation). There is a lot of pivoting at the start and/or finishes of turns. The poles are not planted firmly to support the body during edge change. Skier 1's biggest problem is laziness due to flat terrain and dumbing down the turns. The last turn going into the trees show more angulation and more pep.

Skier 2's weight is a little more forward, is showing faster feet and appears to be having more fun. Skier 2's pole touches are a little more solid and is showing more functional counter and angulation. Skier 2 is also getting bounced around a little more and stepping in some of the turns.

Skier 3's wide stance stands out right away. But just when you think it's going to cause trouble, the feet close up. Skier 3 maintains the most ski/snow contact. Skier 3 gets on his edges earlier. Skier 3 looks like he has his weight more forward, but it slips back occasionally. Skier 3 has the most angulation but his left turns are still a little banked. Skier 3 generally gets his skis more across the fall line than the other skiers. Skier 3 demonstrates much more of a combination of fluidity and control.

Skier 1 skis mostly in the rut. Skier 2 turns off the face of the bump more. Skier 3 does more across the rut path than the others.
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
After reading Freesnownow's post I was going to say the same thing....
Your point is well taken. I am not suggesting that you should bang apart your knees in the bumps. I don't use the term "zipper line". I don't like bump bashing as a style.

I believe that you, all three, are able to make a breakthrough in the bumps. I feel strongly that GS style turns in the bumps is like practicing mistakes. If you get a line, you may find that you are pressuring the shin nicely. It will help you with rythm. It will help you face the fall line and it could help you finish your turns.

Facing the fall line is advanced skiing and is an important part of skiing well. The bumps are a great place to learn that skill. It helps to have tight bumps on a trail that is not too steep.

Heh try it, and stay in control! Pick the right run and stay in the line.
post #9 of 15
skier 2 and skier 3 looked a wee bit on their heels.

skier 1's line is a fun line at higher speeds with more athletic lower body following the terrain, but skier 1 looks a little too style-conscious to be having the most fun possible.

skier 3's slalom-like turns at the bottom of the run showed some good rhythm.

that's all from MA gaper central.
post #10 of 15
Dave,

I don't know what kind of server you have hosting those bump videos (commodore 64?) but it was taking almost 30 seconds for every 1% to buffer. I don't have that much patience. I'm not going to wait 50 minutes to see a 45 second video. I got the same speed on both of your bump videos. I'm on a cable modem.
post #11 of 15
Dave,

If it's the same video of you in the bumps that you have on the video thread (it's in the same post as the Nastar video), for some reason I was able to get it to load from over there.

I like the way you skied those bumps. Yes, it woul dbe better if there was a bit more absorbsion, but considering how small the bumps were, how flat the terrain was, and the fact that you were trying to demo for your father, I think these looked fine. If you cranked up the speed, I'd like to see a lower neutral stance and more movement of the legs so that the CM doesn't go up and down, but for what you were trying to accomplish, I think you did it well.

The last time I saw you ski bumps was 5 years ago at Squaw, before you started teaching. WOW, what a difference 5 years makes!
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Dave,

If it's the same video of you in the bumps that you have on the video thread (it's in the same post as the Nastar video), for some reason I was able to get it to load from over there.

I like the way you skied those bumps. Yes, it woul dbe better if there was a bit more absorbsion, but considering how small the bumps were, how flat the terrain was, and the fact that you were trying to demo for your father, I think these looked fine. If you cranked up the speed, I'd like to see a lower neutral stance and more movement of the legs so that the CM doesn't go up and down, but for what you were trying to accomplish, I think you did it well.

The last time I saw you ski bumps was 5 years ago at Squaw, before you started teaching. WOW, what a difference 5 years makes!
Different video but very similar and same task. Trying to get some people to really slow down their run through the bumps to get them more time to setup for a neutral position at their transition.

And my knee was killing me by this time. it was day 14 and 15 of a 15 day road trip. I taught and skied Friday, January 27 and saturday January 28th, then drove to SLC, Skied hard Sunday-Friday with the coaches, then ESA and Snowbasin, Took a day off to rest and skied hard the rest of the week. These videos were taken Thursday and Friday. Thank goodness for a Gameready device and Aleve!
post #13 of 15

Oooops

Sorry, I posted this reply in the wrong thread..... lets put it here where it belongs .

I see good forward motion and strong stance by all 3 skiers. I would also say that these skiers learned to ski as adults and maybe even quite resently showing some good learning abilities. My hunch is this, why would they otherwise be in the bumps with such devotion and only of good intermediate level? With right coaching they will be very good bump skiers in short time.

All 3 skiers should work on following:
- read the terrain and focus most of their movements and actions on the bumps. Now I see too much traversing and skidding and drifting on mogul less parts of the slope. The moguls are not obsitcles, they are targets. They are the reason you are there.
- flex and extend way more. Stance is waaay to stiff and static in moguls. You need to loosen up and work with your knees and leggs. BTW, it looks like the open parallel skiing by second coach in the 3 coaches video from ESA. Good on groomers but no good in moguls. Yo can be stiff and static if the surface is smooth but if there are bumps you need to absorb them with your leggs.
- try to keep your upper body facing down the fall line. In order to do this you need to make way more turns and stay more in the fall line.
post #14 of 15
dchan this video looks pretty close to what I teach as a non impact way of skiing bumps. There are still problems in their skiing and they are being static but the basics of non impact bumps sking are there.


With this type of skiing the need for large amounts of flexion and absorption are gone and are replaced with a rounder line. Many older skiers are not very flexible and this type of mogul skiing gets them through moguled areas so they can ski ungoomed steeps. Not everyone needs to ski zipperline.

A little more patience on the top of the turn will yield the speed control they seek.
post #15 of 15
Interesting to read how you instructors interpret these learning bump skiers. Each one of the three has the correct mental idea of about where to turn. The first skier is of course taking more time to figure when to take each of his turns. With the gradient modest each mogul comes up slower so they have more time to develop each turn. I've often told skiers in the past to practice learning how to bump ski on such low gradient slopes instead of steeper mogul slopes. That way they teach their brain to become used to the patterns of moguls and gradually are able to react more quickly. Unfortunately these days most resorts groom most all lower angle slopes and just leave moguls on steeper slopes. Not at all the way it was 20 years ago where bumps could be found on more of the low angle slopes too. An experienced mogul skier can go through such a moderate field of small bumps right down the fall line rather just like they do with steeper gradients. Thus the learning skiers would be wise to evolve towards being able to do that in such bumps before taking their skills to steeper fields. I've talked to those who thought such mogul fields were "easy" and instead were more apt to ski steeper gradients where they obviously quickly get into trouble. They indeed can go through such fields at faster speeds than the three in the video but don't have the skill to go straight there more than a few turns like an experienced mogul skier. In other words their criteria for moving on to steeper slopes is more about coping well than technique. Lower gradient fields allow going relatively straight without picking up too much speed. To reach the higher levels one must take the fall line one way or the other and conditioned automatic quickness is key. Of course there is much more concerning body position and dynamic.

...dave
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