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MA Medium bumps

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Video

Long run of moderate bumps.

Have fun..

Ok. small and medium bumps:
post #2 of 25
did you say medium bumps?

positives-smooth progressive movements. nice pole swing albeit a tad late at times.

negatives-lack of upper/lower body seperation. skier follows the tips of the skis in a robotic fashion. skier appears levered/stuck in the front of the boots with very little flexion extension. appears they would be well served to start the whole process a little taller. the last frame sums this up well. the skier looks "folded up" during the entire process. appears a little contrived. looks like a ski instructor desperatly seeking a "six" at a level II exam.

i'd advise them to go find real bumps and ski athletically......not attractively.
post #3 of 25
How would you ski that slope if those "bumps" weren't there? That's how you should be skiing it with those conditions.

Unlike Rusty, I saw good separation between upper and lower on the shorter turns. I'd say torso following tips was appropriate for the longer turns.

I agree the overall performance is a bit static for the conditions.

Additionally, I'd call the slope shown perfect for practicing some retraction turning for use when there were some real bumps. All your turns were made with an extension.
post #4 of 25
I see good forward motion and strong stance by all 3 skiers. I would also say that these skiers learned to ski as adults and maybe even quite resently showing some good learning abilities. My hunch is this, why would they otherwise be in the bumps with such devotion and only of good intermediate level? With right coaching they will be very good bump skiers in short time.

All 3 skiers should work on following:
- read the terrain and focus most of their movements and actions on the bumps. Now I see too much traversing and skidding and drifting on mogul less parts of the slope. The moguls are not obsitcles, they are targets. They are the reason you are there.
- flex and extend way more. Stance is waaay to stiff and static in moguls. You need to loosen up and work with your knees and leggs. BTW, it looks like the open parallel skiing by second coach in the 3 coaches video from ESA. Good on groomers but no good in moguls. Yo can be stiff and static if the surface is smooth but if there are bumps you need to absorb them with your leggs.
- try to keep your upper body facing down the fall line. In order to do this you need to make way more turns and stay more in the fall line.
post #5 of 25

Three???

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
I see good forward motion and strong stance by all 3 skiers.
tdk6,

I must be missing an eye! I only see one (1, uno) skier! Now, I've heard if you drink enough, you can see double, but triple is getting pretty serious!

Anyway...the first thing I'd do with this guy is find out if he likes the way he's skiing those bumps, or if he wants to make changes. Maybe he's already happy and is not interested in my opinion.

If he does want to make changes, I would start with the fact that he has good speed control (on this pitch, anyway), and, although he's shopping a little, he appears to be turning pretty much when and where he wants to. He has some upper/lower body separation on his shorter turns; he follows his skis more on his longer ones.

Because he can do this much, he can take the next step, as Rusty Guy has already suggested, and add some retraction/extension, but, unlike Rusty, I think I'd agree with Kneale that these bumps are a good place to start. Get him to stand up a bit more, pull the feet up over these nice, forgiving mounds, add a bit more reach down the hill with the pole touch, roll to the new edges, extend down the back. This will set him up for a bit more dynamic "flow and go" on these bumps, and give him one of the tools he needs to start working on bigger ones. It will allow him to center as he extends and keep his skis in firm contact with the ground.

There's more, of course, but that's where I think I would start, and it would keep us busy for a while!


Go play!
post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 
I guess it was un-fair to toss this in without more background.

The goal was to ski the bumps very slowly, almost to the point of failure. There was a group of people behind me and it was to be a demonstration of slow easy bumps saving the knees and being gentle, with speed control and trying to stay centered on the feet. Since I knew there was a camera on, Maybe I was being a little stiff and too deliberate.: I agree more extension/flexion would probably have been called for. As far as being more a zipperline type skier, I think my 45 year old sore knees can skip that.. More athletic, Thanks I'll try to remember that.

PS. One of the skiers at that was to follow me down was a 75 year old. I sure hope I can ski like my Dad at 75!
post #7 of 25
Dchan, I only saw one skier on my download--the guy in the red jacket. How would you compare his (maybe it's you) bumpwork to what is required for Level II?

Thanks,
JoeB
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
Dchan, I only saw one skier on my download--the guy in the red jacket. How would you compare his (maybe it's you) bumpwork to what is required for Level II?

Thanks,
JoeB
There's only one. I think the 3 skiers comment should have been in the "contrast in style" thread.

As far as LII, I have to defer to an examiner. It is me, and I did cleanly pass my LII bumps in the PSIA W exams 3 years ago. The bumps we had to ski for L2 however were much bigger and much steeper than what you see me skiing here. If I remember correctly they did want to see more athletic skiing than what I'm doing in this clip.

DC
post #9 of 25
If it was me on that slope, and I am another member of the creaky-knee club, here's what I'd try to do:
a) more angulation by tipping the shoulders downhill and the hips toward the hill--several of the turns have the body leaning toward the hill
b) retract the legs to turn, especially the new inside leg, rather than up-unweighting to turn
c) maybe use the left pole as strongly as the right pole.
d) feet closer together and less uphill tip lead.

Of course, the vid is a very easy, controlled trip down the run. I'd try for the same technique I'd use on a tougher run, just reduced angles and forces.


Ken
post #10 of 25
dchan, thanks.

Appreciate your putting yourself up for comment. I intend to do the same, the next time I get a chance to get taped on the hill.

At Pro-Jam in December, along with the rest of our group, I was videotaped on the hill. Following that, our coach publicly analyzed the footage in the lodge. We all had to swallow some pride in order to absorb the reality of our skiing and move on to improve. (me: A-framing and a slight abstem) So I appreciate the value of it and hope to get my skiing onto Epic soon to take advantage of the solid critiques and advice available here.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to get videotape onto my computer........
JoeB
post #11 of 25
As has been said by others, the main thing I would work on with these skiers is getting more extension and retraction of their legs. This doesn't have to be extreme like the olympic mogul skiers...it can be just a little bit..especially in these "small" bumps (not medium, sorry to say). Almost any skier, even middle aged, can do just a little bit more extension and retraction of their legs. They do it every day while walking around the house, doing chores, etc.. There is certainly no excuse for freezing the body into a stiff static position as this video shows and turning through the bumps.

The line selection is actually decent...for the level of skier we are talking about. They don't need to ski the zipper line and I have no problem with them turning across the hill at this level and in this small bumps.

The only thing I would work on is flexing just a little bit in the legs as the approach and pass over the top of a bump. As they go down the backside of that bump they should extend down into the "trough".. These are small bumps and there aren't much in the way of troughs. They are more like low areas and bumps. So when approaching a bump and rising up the front of it...flex the legs. As you go down the backside into the lower area (aka trough), extend the legs back out to the taller stance.

There are other things that can be worked on, but in my view that would be the best next thing to work on here.
post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdman42
especially in these "small" bumps (not medium, sorry to say). Almost any skier, even middle aged, can do just a little bit more extension and retraction of their legs.

The line selection is actually decent...for the level of skier we are talking about. They don't need to ski the zipper line and I have no problem with them turning across the hill at this level and in this small bumps.
I agree, some small some medium. It was a pretty good mix and perfect for taking a group of skiers that want to practice new found skills


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg
a) more angulation by tipping the shoulders downhill and the hips toward the hill--several of the turns have the body leaning toward the hill
b) retract the legs to turn, especially the new inside leg, rather than up-unweighting to turn
c) maybe use the left pole as strongly as the right pole.
d) feet closer together and less uphill tip lead.
More angulation? the goal is not to carve through the bumps but slide through in control. More skid/pivot and less carve is much easier on the legs and knees.

Feet closer together? Nah. I like the feel of that large balance platform. I don't think the uphill tip lead was too much but then again, to each their own. For the most part I think I was able to maintain contact with the cuff of my boots and engage the tips of my skis. Again not looking for olympic style or competion style bumps with no space between the legs but good balanced skiing. Closer feet would have meant less options for turning and pivoting. It also would have meant a smaller platform to balance over.

And as I watch the video over and over, I need to get a little more upright!
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
I guess it was un-fair to toss this in without more background.

The goal was to ski the bumps very slowly, almost to the point of failure. There was a group of people behind me and it was to be a demonstration of slow easy bumps saving the knees and being gentle, with speed control and trying to stay centered on the feet.... As far as being more a zipperline type skier, I think my 45 year old sore knees can skip that.. More athletic, Thanks I'll try to remember that.

PS. One of the skiers at that was to follow me down was a 75 year old. I sure hope I can ski like my Dad at 75!
I think working on slow skiing in the bumps is real important. I also thing you should avoid using the term 'zipper line'. Your skiing in this video would be much improved if you would pick a line. You can change it along the way but your route did not flow and it affected you skiing. Use the line you pick to help you ski better!

dchan, this skiing is better than the other thread by much. It helps to have bumps if you are trying to ski bumps! Nicely done.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
Now all I have to do is figure out how to get videotape onto my computer........
JoeB
Joe,

Check out theRusty's page for figuring out how to get video tape onto your computer. Let me know if that helps.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Feet closer together? Nah. I like the feel of that large balance platform. I don't think the uphill tip lead was too much but then again, to each their own. For the most part I think I was able to maintain contact with the cuff of my boots and engage the tips of my skis. Again not looking for olympic style or competion style bumps with no space between the legs but good balanced skiing. Closer feet would have meant less options for turning and pivoting. It also would have meant a smaller platform to balance over.

And as I watch the video over and over, I need to get a little more upright!
Dchan,

Smooth skiing! I know that does not represent your bumping, so MA is really out of the question. Since you were leading a group down, I suspect that the skiing you were demonstrating was at or just above their level. So, you're at the mercy of the group. What else can be said?

Well, now that I endured a 10kb/sec download, I still want to have some fun with it....so I'll suggest a few things that could have been different in a fine demonstration.

Line selection was nice and simple. I think that you should have chosen some traversing right overtop of the bumps to trigger some movement in the group -- but then I don't know the group. There was a spot in the video in which you were mugging for the camera and shimmied a couple of tight turns -- I sure hope the group could do that!

But yeah, I too think feet closer together. IMO, a group that you were leading could benefit from seeing it, even if they don't do it. The notion here is that the wide feet allow too much independence -- one ski can go up one bump and another go down a gully. I don't think that the group would like to experience that....

Oversquare to the skis. I'd like to see more anticipation to the turns -- body facing more downhill. This should be OK for what I'm guessing is the level of group you had. They should appreciate that when they unweight, the anticipation will help them initiate the turn as their bodies unwind. That alone can make skiing these easy bumps simpler for them.

Pole usage. Ok, straight away, your poles were too long! The choice of where to plant could be better -- in the face of the bump always please. And I would plant each and every turn. Poles in the group are also usually too long, so planting them at a higher spot can cause even more problems.

These are all nit-picky things. In general, the run looked quite acceptable for your group to follow, and I imagine, met it's purpose.

Thanks for posting it.
post #16 of 25
For me, the lack of absorbtion/extension is the main problem with that bump run. A Level II instructor should never look that rigid. I realize you were directing your skiing to lower level skiers, but the absorbtion/extension move is probably the very first thing they should learn while traversing such bumps.
post #17 of 25
I don't have audio on this computer so I can't hear what's being said, but this video from Ski Mag seems relevant:

http://www.skimag.com/skimag/instruc...602 14|Story4
post #18 of 25
FYI it was:

Keep the hands moving, face down the fall line and look ahead.

Good advice.
post #19 of 25
Quote:
More angulation? the goal is not to carve through the bumps but slide through in control. More skid/pivot and less carve is much easier on the legs and knees.

Feet closer together? Nah. I like the feel of that large balance platform. I don't think the uphill tip lead was too much but then again, to each their own. For the most part I think I was able to maintain contact with the cuff of my boots and engage the tips of my skis. Again not looking for olympic style or competion style bumps with no space between the legs but good balanced skiing. Closer feet would have meant less options for turning and pivoting. It also would have meant a smaller platform to balance over.
The ability to carve gives one the option of carving or allowing the skis to drift. The advantage of carving is when the edges slice through lumpy stuff that a skid bounces over. Carving is the easiest on the knees...there in no twist trying to make the knee act like a rotary joint. Developing the habit of having the feet closer together is a big advantage when a skier gets into a bad spot in the bumps...the feet must be horizontally close together* when skiing across a very steep face or in a trough. Also, just bending the knees causes a rotary movement in the lower leg when the feet are horizontally apart, and much less so with the feet close together. Less uphill tip lead is a very good way to easily get the feet under the hips for good fore/aft balance. Also, less uphill tip lead allows the body to angulate more.

About knee twisting and horizontal stance width...
"One good researcher on issues of stance width is Tom Andriacchi from Stanford University. He is one of the top researchers on knee injuries.... he gave a presentation in the Biomechanics section of the International Congress of the International Society of Ski Safety 2003. His analysis of knee mechanics in deep flexion during skiing has some interesting conclusions. 1. Andriacchi's data on deep flexion concludes that lower leg rotation is to some extent inherent in the action of flexing the knees. When the knees are flexed the tibia naturally rotates a bit. the extent increases with the deepness of the flex (just how much also varies among individuals). In a stance no wider than the hips, the affects are minimal. However, the effects increase dramatically as the stance widens or moves into a wedge. Flexion with either a wide stance or wedge greatly increases the rotational force while also putting most of the force on the tail of the ski. 2. More importantly, his work also concludes that either a wide stance or a wedge with flexion dramatically increases stress on the ACL. Again, a narrower stance with emphasis on little toe edge tipping generally reduces stress on the knee. In addition, contracting the leg muscles to pull the leg back also reduces the stress on the ACL by reducing anterior translation of the tibia (stabilizing the head of the tibia in its more natural position). On this research, the traditional advice of a horizontally wide stance with flexing and inward driving of the knee is the worst thing you could do for either edge hold or knee stress; and an move toward a horizontally narrower stance with emphasis on little toe edge tipping enhances both carving hold and reduction of knee stress."
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=689 (last item in this posting)


Ken

*Horizontal separation distance is the distance one leg axis is away from the other...look at a racer with the inside boot an inch from the outside knee. This is a very close stance horizontally, but much vertical separation. Skiing across the steep face of a mogul requires this sort of separation.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy

The ability to carve gives one the option of carving or allowing the skis to drift. The advantage of carving is when the edges slice through lumpy stuff that a skid bounces over. Carving is the easiest on the knees...there in no twist trying to make the knee act like a rotary joint. Developing the habit of having the feet closer together is a big advantage when a skier gets into a bad spot in the bumps...the feet must be horizontally close together* when skiing across a very steep face or in a trough.
I like this.

In bumps I tend to bring my skis together more. For one there is less room in the bumps. dchan, for my choosing your skis are too far apart. The word stance is used too often to describe width of feet. Stance to me means 'head to toe'. I don't like to tell people how far apart their skis should be. I have trouble knowing this for myself - unless I'm in bumps.

I like carving and will skid when appropriate or when I feel like it for fun. Carving in bumps is another advanced skill.
post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole idea of feet apart to give us the ability to put the ski on a higher edge angle and more room to pivot our feet? Of course bumps are not "everyday skiing" for most.

In the lessons I was shadowing, we skied some bumps. Bonnie says in my "free skiing" not demoing in the bumps I was "too carvy" and "too high edge angle". I needed to be more skid/pivot.. go figure. She did not tell me I needed to get the feet closer together although her feet were a little tighter in the bumps.

When skiing with Jim at ESA, he also said the wider stance helps "lock up" the hips to allow more independent rotation for the Femurs and more quickness in the bumps and crud.. Sounds like opposing view points here.

I like the feel of the bigger larger platform to balance and stand on and the wider stance with being able to pivot my legs gives me that.

DC
post #22 of 25
dchan,

You don't need high edge angles in the bumps. The bumps do that for you already.

Try to ski wide stance when the bumps are short as sharks teeth -- see what happens.

I would not consider those things in the video bumps -- more like terrain defects. Consequently, they will forgive such errors.

Wide is not mobile -- wide is stable. Narrow is more mobile by the virtue of it's instability.

Wider can help the hips lock up and rotate independently, but piles of crud can use that seperation to push your skis in two different directions. Especially when it is heavy, the skis will have a greater tendency to find two different paths when wide apart. Keeping them closer together means that they should be affected in the same manner by whatever is underfoot -- so they won't stray from their path.

That's the conventional wisdom up here.

If you want a larger platform to balance on, then plant your poles!

Cheers!
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan

She did not tell me I needed to get the feet closer together although her feet were a little tighter in the bumps.

When skiing with Jim at ESA, he also said the wider stance helps "lock up" the hips to allow more independent rotation for the Femurs and more quickness in the bumps and crud.. Sounds like opposing view points here.

I like the feel of the bigger larger platform to balance and stand on and the wider stance with being able to pivot my legs gives me that.

DC
A wider stance does not make it easier to pivot.

The opposing view points that you observe is a true observation. I do not want to tell you how wide your feet should be. For me, I bring them in for the bumps. You could try it and see. You could try it and see while trying to stay in your line (not zipper-line), holding tight to the fall line.

You are going to see improvement. I can see it in your skiing.

Bump skiing is athletic in nature. Don't over think it.
post #24 of 25
If your group was using shaped skis, a narrower stance will make it easier for them to skid.

The direction of our pole swing determines turn shape. Swing your pole down the hill and move your hips in the same direction for better edge release. When you swing your pole near your tips your turn is elongated.

This may have contributed to your choice of lines.
post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
A wider stance does not make it easier to pivot.
Didn't say easier to pivot I said more room to pivot..

Of course many people think no tip lead is good.

Some say more counter, some say less..

It's what the situation calls for and I need to continue to explore the whole range. Not use one type of turn for everything..
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