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What was the instructor doing? - Page 3

post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
Thats why it surprises me when instructors sometimes ask if you mind riding up with the student. We are talking little kids-maybe 4 -7 years old. I would think the resort would not want this due to the liability. They are entrusting the care of the child to you-a total stranger. Maybe the person they are hading the chld off to doesnt know how to get off the lift either. There are too many vairables and risk factors to have the little kids taking lessons riding up lifts with anyone but a trained instructor IMO.

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Our resort takes them from 3...some are very small 3 year olds who if asked their age say THREE loudly while holding up 2 fingers!
our resorts policy is ONE per adult and TWO per instructor... at a certain age they can ride unaccompanied... (??seven maybe??)... I once worked kid transport - but as I was NOT employed as an instructor ONE was still my limit(I was working indoors feeding kids)

the older/wiser instructors try to pick local people that they know can sort of ski (maybe they are with older kids or friends)....
If I see instructors with a gaggle of little ones I always offer - it is such a pain to have to ship them....
If I am in a private my instructor will take 2 I take 1 on the next chair... we arrange them at their "meeting place" (every lift in the areas the kids usually ski has a meeting place for kids to go to if they lose class/instructor... it is also used for meeting places as they ride lifts) then head off....

Note - the instructor will also usually pick the better lift riders for joe public & keep the really bad ones themselves...

My instructor told me that if I was thinking I wanted to be an instructor I should feel CONFIDENT I could ski down the mountain with a kid in arms if needed.... They do get cold fast etc & he & his buddies all reckon you should feel you could do this safely before considering teaching them....(sometimes it is the fastest way to a warm place & safest for a group of small ones)... I have seen these guys grab 2 kids off the lift when things look dodgy... I do not feel quite that confident!
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
What I dont like is when people push off the chair edge hard when unloading(often prematurely before the others have even started standing up). Someone will suddenly fly off before anyone is ready. This can cause you to slip backwards when standing up and leaning forward. Boarders do this a lot but I think it is out of neccesity to get them going.

I am still kind of paranoid of lifts just because I have had 2 serious incidents(my only real injuries in skiing 20 years) with them. I just am extra cautuious around lifts and hate riding full lifts and try to get on the outside when riding a full one. Some people like to jam and jab with their poles or arms when you are in the middle. Like you said just stand up and slide-youre not going down the mens 50m ski jump hill.
Yeah the big push thing is a bit annoying too...

If I am with boarders I try to offer them the outside seats - or check which side they would like to load before we get on....
as they have a "footedness" they have a more comfy side to ride & so (I guess) to load and unload....
I reason the chances of them falling decrease when I let them ride in their preferred direction...
Most looked a bit shocked when you offer them a choice....
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
In my opinion inexperienced young kids taking lessons should be under the supervision of the insructor or their parents when riding the lift, not some stranger.
Dead right. Yep. The instructor should go up with all their class.


So. Which resort has 10 person chair lifts?
post #64 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
Dead right. Yep. The instructor should go up with all their class.


So. Which resort has 10 person chair lifts?

ahhhhh NOW I know why perisher installed an 8 pack!
they have a cunning plan to have kids classes of 7 and the instructor can ride with the whole class!
Stunning - they installed a beginner 8 pack just for that....

and I always thought it was for a "funniest home videos" of the 8 beginners loading & unloading!
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Yeah the big push thing is a bit annoying too...

If I am with boarders I try to offer them the outside seats - or check which side they would like to load before we get on....
as they have a "footedness" they have a more comfy side to ride & so (I guess) to load and unload....
I reason the chances of them falling decrease when I let them ride in their preferred direction...
Most looked a bit shocked when you offer them a choice....
There are usualy signs to watch out for when it comes to potential problems. The first sign is if they insist on opening the bar way ahead of the ramp(to prepare mentally or something). The second sign is if they get fidgety after the bar opens. Then their face gets all puckered and they look all serious and breath heavy like they are just getting ready to dart out of the gate in a GS event. When the time comes to unload they get stiff and rigid and kind of grunt like they are on the camode. !! Danger Will Robinson !!...I take off quick and make sure I am the first one off.
post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
Dead right. Yep. The instructor should go up with all their class.


So. Which resort has 10 person chair lifts?
When you are talking about 5 or 6 year olds I would not enroll my kid in a class where there would be 1 instructor for 10 students. Would you?
post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
There are usualy signs to watch out for when it comes to potential problems. The first sign is if they insist on opening the bar way ahead of the ramp(to prepare mentally or something). The second sign is if they get fidgety after the bar opens. Then their face gets all puckered and they look all serious and breath heavy like they are just getting ready to dart out of the gate in a GS event. When the time comes to unload they get stiff and rigid and kind of grunt like they are on the camode. !! Danger Will Robinson !!...I take off quick and make sure I am the first one off.
nah THAT is when you stay put.... they are all keyed up and as soon as you move they try to go with you... like a race... then they FALL on you....(yes I actually had one try to fall on me - like on my shoulder/head)....

if they are sort of undecided like a rabbit in car headlights you dart out fast...
post #68 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
When you are talking about 5 or 6 year olds I would not enroll my kid in a class where there would be 1 instructor for 10 students. Would you?
with smallest ones smaller classes but with bigger kids...
1 for eight is not that uncommon from what I see.... that means she needs NINE seats... her & eight kids
post #69 of 79
http://www.thredbo.com.au/about/medi...llery.asp?id=8

have a look at picture 19...

there are 2 instructors but the other side of that trailer has the smae number of kids
post #70 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR

In today's litigous society when someone can get sued for just looking at someone the wrong way no way no how.
What else won't you do for your fellow man. This is the new America. We won't help out because we might get sued. That's what's wrong with Amreica. And then you'll blame it on lawyers.

Your law suit fears are nothing but a smoke screen. You can't be bothered!
post #71 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon

With respect, your question is flawed in that the car crash has already happened & the old man has already fallen. Any right minded person would help.


Are you saying that PaulR would help?

What about a law suit?
post #72 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
skiingman has never been stuck on a lift for two hours when the wind has come up and started the chair swinging like a church tower bell.
Stuck on a lift for two hours?

Yup. Been there. I was annoyed they didn't evacuate us. I'm also not scared of riding a little sling down to the ground. Heights only scare me when I'm in an unsafe or precarious situation. Like bouldering above 15 feet, or standing on a roof I didn't personally nail the roofing onto...
Quote:
skiingman has never been on an icy seat when a thirty knot gust comes up from behind.
Sure as hell have. Takes a lot more than a thirty knot tailwind to unseat my hundred kilos...especially because AGAIN I note that a tailwind will cause the lift to become dynamically further reclining, making it harder for you to fall off.

Usually I get excited in those circumstances, because if the seat is icy I'm someplace like northern VT and if its blowing that hard up the hill, there's going to be that fun part where you get to stand till facing down the fall line.
Quote:
skiingman must live where the days are always sunny and without peril.

we should all be so lucky and blessed.
Bah, no luck or blessing about it. I got in the van and drove 2500 miles to get here. : Not all days are without peril, but there sure are a lot of 'em that are!

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
Many a person has fallen out when the lift stops. Some lifts move up and down after a stop. Stops can be abrupt. People do fall out. Most don't because the bar is down, as it should be with kids on the lift.
Yeah right.

These things are reported on by every ski patrol I've ever seen, so the statistics should be available.

First off, the overall injury rate in skiing is 2.7 injuries per 1000 skier days, which makes it one of the safest recreational activities around for the mean skier. (http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/pageren...geindex=3#page)

Next, a relatively recent study of snowboarders, who common sense would indicate are more likely to fall off a lift, indicates that the likelyhood of such incident is vanishingly small. Snowboarders injure themselves more often than skiers (big surprise) at a rate between 4 and 16 injuries per 1000 days. Of 78 snowboard injuries that included a supplemental survey, only six involved the lift at all. Of those six, six occurred during loading and unloading. http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/pageren...geindex=4#page

Actually, a search of a couple different databases of the literature has thus far turned up no information on skiers and snowboarders actually falling from lifts. If this were a problem worth thinking about, or whining about as per Epic, someone would have written a paper on it by now. If you find that research I'd be glad to look at it. :

You can find literature that investigates the handful of horrific lift disasters that have occurred over the years, where you will find surprisingly few fatal and life threatening injuries occur even when the worst happens and the entire chair falls from the cable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR
Also...Many people treat lifts noncahalantly but a lot of accidents and injuries occur while Loading and unloading of lifts. Fractured my tibia while unloading back in 94 and my wrist back in 87. in 94
If skiing required liability insurance, no one would insure you. Two serious injuries while unloading in your career=vastly greater than the norm.

I think its absolutely hilarious how scared of life some of you are. I have no idea how you get in your car in the morning, knowing auto travel is most likely to kill you until you get pretty darned old.

Regardless, even Dangerous PaulR here doesn't appear to have fallen off a lift. The only people who actually fall off perfectly functional chairlifts are drunks, kids and adults sleeping, and kids screwing around.

I've never seen a kid fall off a chairlift, but I've heard stories over the years. I've also heard of one drunk guy that fell off. Like most Urban Legend material (things people have irrational fears of) this kind of crap spreads far and wide. I have seen dumb kids jump off. I wonder how many accidental falls aren't so accidental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskinow
Are you saying that because you never fell off a lift, no one will ever fall off a lift or are you saying that you don't care?
I'm saying the chance of falling out of a lift is so vanishingly small that the added cost and injuries caused by safety bars are highly unlikely to be worthwhile in any non-crazy-wombat sense.

Even more ridiculous are state laws mandating a "safety device" that hasn't actually proved its value.

Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, federal airbag mandates, etc. all have vast quantities of good literature making it blaringly obvious that their inconvenience and cost is well worth it. Seatbelts save literally thousands of lives each year, with economic benefits running into the billions of dollars.

"Safety bars" on ski lifts have no such well-defined place in the world. If you'd like to suggest otherwise, try and avoid ad hominem and naughty language. :
post #73 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
Here in the US, people seem to raise the bar a long way out from the landing spot. The general idea is to raise it as you're coming into the top station, and there's no long drop under you. But here they start panicking several towers out, if the bar isn't being raised.
Funny you mention people panicing. They literally throw fits and curse at you if you don't lift the bar 300 yards away from the wheel house while we're still 40 feet in the air. Especially stupid on a detachable where we get more than ample time to raise the bar and unload even if waiting until our skis hit the unloading ramp.

In every lesson, adult or child, I drop the bar and become a "leaner". I lean on that bar until we hit the wheel house or the entrance ramp despite the cursing, freaked out gapers on my chair. It's my job and I'm responsible for those in my chair, whether in my lesson or not. I've seen and heard of too many kids and adults fall from lifting too early or not using them at all.
post #74 of 79
skiingman,

You still fail to understand that not everyone is comfortable at heights and that bar is critical to add some measure of safety (even if it is perceived only) to some people. It is no different than that guard-rail that separates you from the fall when you stand on a ledge. With the rail, one can lean on it and admire the view. Without the rail, some cannot even approach the edge. It is called fear of heights.
post #75 of 79
I'm a children's instructor and taking kids on the chairs is the scariest part of the job. We usually ride one instructor with two kids. Even so, its hard to predict what they'll do. I usually keep a hand on each kids knee, so I can tell if they start to move.
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
skiingman,

You still fail to understand that not everyone is comfortable at heights and that bar is critical to add some measure of safety (even if it is perceived only) to some people. It is no different than that guard-rail that separates you from the fall when you stand on a ledge. With the rail, one can lean on it and admire the view. Without the rail, some cannot even approach the edge. It is called fear of heights.
Acrophobia, right? Hah, my dad referred to it as "agoraphobia" today while riding a tram and I had to correct him...although ironically that could apply in a tram as well.

It seems that your contention is that government mandates of equipment that makes people with irrational fears more comfortable is reasonable...unless I'm misreading something here.

I have no real problem with people being scared of a chair without a bar, but I have a very large problem with said people dramatically overstating the risks of such a thing and then claiming that its my civic duty to agree with them, and that laws mandating them are good governance.

I've kept looking but I still haven't found any literature that even discusses safety bars or people having accidents outside of loading and unloading chairs.
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman

I have no real problem with people being scared of a chair without a bar, but I have a very large problem with said people dramatically overstating the risks of such a thing and then claiming that its my civic duty to agree with them, and that laws mandating them are good governance.

I've kept looking but I still haven't found any literature that even discusses safety bars or people having accidents outside of loading and unloading chairs.
You are right, few people fall out of chairs. But when they do they tend to get badly hurt. And over time there are enough people injured to warrant safety bars. I don't like mandating anything, but kids need to be protected. I put the bar down. It's no big deal as long as you have a helmet on!
post #78 of 79
I ski with my kids and this is always in the back of my mind. Especially when they are in ski school. What kind of surprised me this past week at Whistler is that the ski school instuctors would often ask people in line if they would take a couple of kids up with them, as there was often one instructor and 6 or so kids. It seems to me that this is not very safe, not to mention it could open the skier willing to take the kids up to liability.
post #79 of 79
Thread Starter 
I always take kids up when instructors ask. the poor guys/girls get saddled with a group of little ones and they need a little help. Ive already done it twice this week alone. its usually with an instructor who has seen me at least ride up once or twice, if not ski. and when they are in groups like that, the kids are pretty good anyway.

I dont think the liablilty transfers to the adults asked to help out for the chair ride.

Just the same I always talk to the child, and "be at the ready" if they were to move quickly. That ususally means my arms in grabbing distance from the jacket. I always wait with the child at the top till the instructor gets there.

I think the liability stays with the instructor though. but I could be wrong...but it would seem to me that the child remains under the instructors supervision..
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