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What was the instructor doing?

post #1 of 79
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaA
during this:

http://www.thewmurchannel.com/news/6905758/detail.html

Boy Hospitalized After Falling From Ski Lift


(ssh edit: deleted copyrighted material)
[Sarcasm] Yeah, as if the instructor is repsonsible for every last action that the student performs. [/Sarcasm]

Come on, if you spent any time working with hyperactive pre-teens (just about all of them), you would know that they act out on ill-advised actions faster than the reaction time of most of us adults can comprehend. What was the instructor supposed to do, put a rope around him and tie him in whilst on the lift? When are people (adolescents included) going to start taking responsibilty for their own actions?

Powdr
post #3 of 79
Too little information to blame the instructor immediately. What was the wind at the time?

This is probably not the case but ..... the first gust is the worst gust?

With kids, I usuall called the bar and then kept my arm out, but what the boarders do, I really don't know.
post #4 of 79
I'm not clear on how the instructor becomes his/her students' parent, protector, guardian.

care to explain, Linda?
post #5 of 79
Lifting the bar "early" doesn't make someone fall off of a chair lift.

From the limited information in the news report, how could anyone conclude anything?
post #6 of 79
Possible cause is that the kid dropped something and then did a grab after the bar was up.

You are a "keeper" to a point, a variable is the level of the student as well as the age. If the kid was just going for those first rides on the "big lift" and you were doing "escort duty" (instruction), knowing that you had a newbee ... you are his or her keeper.

The only exception to that would be if you were "bar up and "staged" waiting to get off ...... you say .... "wait, wait, ok now" .. if the kid took a dive while I was saying wait .... hard decision .... but like I said, my arm is always there. With someone with time on the trails, I doubt if I try a grab since that means two to rescue.

Kids are always fidgeting with crap, walkmans, cellphones and other junk and you make it clear that the ride up is not the same as being in their living room.

crud: It's part of the job spec and taught in the intros .... lift safety and riding with kids ... as such, you could certainly argue "duty or standard of care".
post #7 of 79

I'm

Surprised it doesn't happen more often. I see kids with their parents on the lift with them, the bar comes up early and then they slide forward, ready to get off.

I've never seen it happen (a fall) but I know about sudden stops. There is a false sense of security on the lift. You don't have to be that high to get real hurt.

Don't know whose to blame, but the kid played a role in it.
post #8 of 79
Thread Starter 
YIPES! geeze...sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was the instructors fault, really. gawd, guess I hit a nerve there, got spanked in a hurry!

(thank you sir, may I have another?)

I just wondered what he was doing at the time becasue I cant lift a bar all that fast, or at least not fast enough for somone to say "Hey,too soon," (Vk does this all the time, he's afraid of heights, and I am always afraid of riding th bull wheel) or "hey, sit back."

but then I know kids can be slippery (I have two of them myself.) and I was wondering If he tried to grab him, or what happened then...

oh well, sorry. I guess I'll have to go to bed without supper tonight.
post #9 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaA
David Barrett, director of the state Division of Safety Services, said the initial report indicates the boy lifted the chairlift's safety bar too soon.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Mr. Obvious reporting that story?

Also way to copy the Copyright info.

Assuming everything else is normal (normal intellegence, physical ability etc) that would lead me to believe that the kid just dropped something or thought it would be cool to jump down and start skiing. NOT THE INSTRUCTORS FAULT - yet.
post #10 of 79
During my ten years of Patrolling, I was present for four incidents of people falling out of lifts.

One of them fatal. A young boy. The other three all serious injuries.

All of these incidents occured from not having the lift restraint bar down while riding the lift.

I'm not going to place any blame until more facts are released, if indeed they are released, but one has to wonder what the Instructor was doing at the time the person fell out.

Does the instructor accept responcibility for the safety of clients when the client pays for a lesson?

Does the Resort accept responsibility for the Instructor who is employed at their Resort?

I hate to say it but I smell lawsuit.
post #11 of 79
why does the instructor have to CONTROL his students?

Lars, it's highly possible that the kid was being a kid, and an accident happened as a result, as often happens with kids. the fact that the kid was hurt doesn't mean we need to find someone to blame!
post #12 of 79
I think if the kid was young and inexperienced in knowing how to ride and unload of a lift properly, yes the instructor should have been more alert when loading and unloading. (we don't know the circumstances)

As I said, at this point we can't place any blame. I'm not.

As a Father I can tell you that every time I rode the lifts with my Son, we always used the lift restraint bar. When it came time to unload and the bar was raised I always made sure my kid was in the proper position to unload and a hand was on his shoulder making sure he didn't fall before his skis were on snow again.

the fact that the kid was hurt doesn't mean we need to find someone to blame!

Unfortunatly, kids can't always be held responsible for their actions whether stupid or not. Depending on the age of the kid. Usually the adult or person who was with the kid at the time gets the blame or held responsible. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

I can only hope this was just a freak accident and the instructor did everything possible to have prevented it.
post #13 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Also way to copy the Copyright info
KennyG, I posted the link, and the article, and I wanted to make sure I had all the legal information there....I guess I should't post that I shouldn't have posted....Or should I have posted that or not...arrrughh!!! sue me!
god, I should have just kept out of the whole thing today....I cant do anything right! :mrgreen:

I guess we all agree on one thing, there isn't enough info here to really place blame or not.
post #14 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaA
KennyG, I posted the link, and the article, and I wanted to make sure I had all the legal information there....I guess I should't post that I shouldn't have posted....Or should I have posted that or not...arrrughh!!! sue me!
god, I should have just kept out of the whole thing today....I cant do anything right! :mrgreen:

I guess we all agree on one thing, there isn't enough info here to really place blame or not.
You are under arrest Linda, for copywrite infractions, or is it infarctions?

You can post anything you want dear. It's good discussion material.

KennyG is on his period. Don't pay any attention ok?
post #15 of 79
Thread Starter 
ok, I fixed the copyright infraction. but can i still be under arrest? I like handcuffs.

note to all who quoted me...take out the infraction, please.
post #16 of 79
As much as I feel sorry for the kid, I also feel sorry for the instructor. It's crushing to have someone in your class get hurt, especially a kid. And even though it was probably entirely the kid's fault, if the father decides to sue, the instructor will probably be the first name on the list. This sucks for everyone.

They were boarders, so the kid could have turned himself sideways in prep to unload, and slid off the front of the chair, or any number of other situations.
post #17 of 79
Weird situation. Snowboarder...he could have been twisted, due to the way the board hangs. If the seat was slippery, that twisted around position is not good.

When I teach little kids, I take my poles and use them as a secondary safety bar (I played hockey for most of my life and have strong wrists and forearms) as they have poor spatial skills and timing skills.
However! For a 12 year old I would not see any need for this. Most of them are as big as me.

I cannot imagine what happened.

Could be interesting if NH is the same as Vermont, where it is state law to use the safety bar on chairlifts.

Instructors' worst nightmare, to have a kid slip off the chair. I helped a kids' instructor some years ago, to take his class up an old high chairlift. They were infants, and to my deep concern, one began falling asleep! I gripped him for the entire ride. Turned out they hadn't had lunch yet.

12 year old though, that's not an infant.
post #18 of 79
My buddy had his 4 year old in the chair. He normally took the outside with the girl next to him. One day she insisted on having the outside seat and he said ok. It was a high speed quad and she started to slip out. With no place to grab, he pushed her back on to the chair and himself off. By the time he fell he was 20 plus feet in the air. He came down hard and smashed his shoulder. He also destroyed his Volkls.

The girl had a great run - by herself.

Hunter.
post #19 of 79
I taught kids for a few winters and I used to hang onto them all ... they do not realize that with their small bodies they can just slip out -- safety bar or none. I'd make them sit way back, because their desire is to sit forward and lean on the bar, which is just not safe.

That said ... if you're on a quad and you've got three kids -- it's easy to not see one for a split second.
post #20 of 79

I feel bad

I feel bad for that instructor.

I rode a chair lift with a kid who was probably 4.

I didn't know anything about him. He was so small.

His family was in the chair lift right behind us.

All I could think of was how I'm responsible for this little kid's life, and him getting off the lift. I was stunned that his family gave me, a stranger, this responsibility.

I kept my arm guarding him even with the bar down. I was terrified that this kid would fall out even with the bar and then I'd be responsible.

I can't expect an instructor sitting with a TEEN to be this paranoid.

But something went wrong.
post #21 of 79
At Mammoth Mtn. Ski SChool we do not use the bar. They are designed to maybe restrain an adult. Kids can slide right under them. We teach people to sit back all the way. When the bar goes down, the kids tend to move forward to the edge of the seat, and hang onto the bar. This is a bad spot if the lift stops suddenly. The simple act of raising and lowering the bar is another dangerous situation, especially on chairs with foot rests.
post #22 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by @mammoth
At Mammoth Mtn. Ski SChool we do not use the bar. They are designed to maybe restrain an adult. Kids can slide right under them. We teach people to sit back all the way. When the bar goes down, the kids tend to move forward to the edge of the seat, and hang onto the bar. This is a bad spot if the lift stops suddenly. The simple act of raising and lowering the bar is another dangerous situation, especially on chairs with foot rests.
I've made the same argument around here, but with VT law requiring use of the safety bar, my theory falls on deaf ears.
post #23 of 79
NYCJIM, great post. This is exactly what all concientious instructors feel.

Last season here in busy time, I saw a loon flying down towards my kids, who were sitting and waiting. So I walked out and took the loon, rather than have him hit my kids. I don't even like kids! But when they come at them, I have to protect them, because their parents have entrusted them to me.
post #24 of 79
What an aweful accident. I have ridden lifts with my 4yr old and 6yr old. I am a nervous wreck the whole way up. No doubt a kid can easily slide under the bar. We put the bar down asap and up at the last minute.

Kids can no way manage the multi-tasking it takes to ride a lift. As was posted, they are always playing with something and so easily distracted...one wrong weight shift and they will be gone.

I just about keep my hand on the collar of their jacket the whole ride.

Sad accident and worse that it had to be someone else with them and not one of the parents. A third party does not need that on their conscience.
post #25 of 79
Thread Starter 
Ok, maybe, as the parent of a twelve year old, I am thinking about this in a different way. kinda shoe on the other foot thing.

If I entrust my kid to a ski school, and something happens, I am sorry, but my very first question would be "And what was the instructor doing?" Not as blame but as a way to find out what the hell happened.

If I am entrusting my child to a ski school instructor, I would expect that saftey would be the number one concern of all involved. It seems to be the thing amongst you instructor types that one should not teach ones own child, to leave it to the "Professionals". so, If I leave it to a professional, and my child is hurt and it might be negligience, then I want to know. YES I would question the instructor. I

ts probably an accident, and probably no fault of the instructor, but I want to make sure that I know the whole story. Get real. Certifications do not end your responsibility to protect children, and I want to feel like I am safe putting my kid in ski school. I already sign waivers about equipment malfunctions, and if I ski I am responsible for my own damned stupid self, but do I sign away the instructors responsibility to protect a CHILD?

My 12 yo, and most of his peers would not "slip under the bar." at that age, they are generally big enough that the saftey bar works as well as on any adult. and the article mentioned that he "lifted the bar too soon." when to lift the bar is not part of instruction? How to ride the lift is not in the curriculum? the possiblilty of a kid not listening is not accounted and planned for?

honestly, It probably was an accident. but the "Its not his fault!" knee jerk reaction I am getting here really makes me question weather or not I should leave the childrens instruction to another person, and I dont care how many pins the guy is wearing. Where does the instructor responsibility begin and end?

I teach my own kids. I think I will continue to do so.
post #26 of 79

there were a few reactions

Read my posts one more time.

Any more facts out there?
post #27 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaA

. and the article mentioned that he "lifted the bar too soon." when to lift the bar is not part of instruction? How to ride the lift is not in the curriculum? the possiblilty of a kid not listening is not accounted and planned for?

.
Most of my instructor friends teach "when to lift the bar"..... the trouble is MOST adults set bad examples and the kids copy..... Smaller kids can be used to teach parents.... but some parents know better....:

How long does it take some people to JUST STAND UP? I mean they want to lift the bar 3-4 towers out on a detachable lift.... WTF is with that? I can stand up and ski away easily in the time a regular type detachable seat takes from actually swapping over....

When you try to explain to adults WHY the bar stays down longer they say "who would fall out?" .... my regular resort has had a kid (not small) ejected from seat due to a sudden stop.... luckily she was close enough to end to land in the basket(just) rather than on a pile of rocks! Also plenty of stories of sudden stops ejecting people mid-ride....
post #28 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis
Lifting the bar "early" doesn't make someone fall off of a chair lift.
actually it can if there is then a sudden stop.... I know of at least one case when this happened just that way....
post #29 of 79
Thread Starter 
ok, you are right there. I guess I am guilty of being a "bad example"I am one of those who dont "know any better." Vk is always yelling at me for lifting the bar too soon! but then only on some chairs because he doesn't like heights.

but I guess this article just really scared me, as I have a 12 yo son who is just learning to ski. pretty frightening to think of what can happen out there, I think I will make sure to go over chair saftey next time out.
post #30 of 79
I really don't know when to lift the bar. In most cases I like to leave it down until we are real close. This is especially true when kids are on the chair. I also like to keep an eye on little kids when they move towards the edge to get off. That can be early, too. Right after the bar goes up they start to slid forward.

Like I said before, I'm surprised more falls don't occur.
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