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Base plate question?

post #1 of 20
Another case of lamo retailers with no mind/opinion of their own swallowing manufacturer propaganda hook line and sinker. You are right, it is of great importance, at least because we should have the ability to choose what we ski and what set-up we use.

I hate the whole 'packaged' ski and binding thing. There is only one reason behind it - sales (maybe with the exception of something like the Salomoon pilot system, which is a genuine innovation). :
post #2 of 20
I think the current story is that
- if you spend most of your time carving on groomers the plate would be beneficial (extra leverage);
- if you spend most of your time in the soft stuff and landing a ton of jumps plate would not do as much for you.

post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you for your replys boys. RockSkier nails it with "whatever happend to freedome of choice?" I play e-guitar and there is practicly nobody that has the exact same equipment and setup.

I dont like the ide that some jerk 21 y old salesman : tells me that Im out of line asking for base plates for expert skis!

I would like to hear if anybody else are into 50mm or more base plates for regular skiing here at this message board?

post #4 of 20
Comes right down to personal preference. I am right at 55mm off the snow on both pairs of race skis that i own, and all of my other skis have some sort of lift under the binding that gets me up off the snow. If i were free skiing out west in a lot of powder, i would still use a lifted binding because it feels more versitile to me. So then i would be able to carve the groomers without booting out, and while freesking, i dont think i would notice 10 extra mm of lift under my foot (which is what most lifted bindings give you - or close to it). In my experience 55mm is enough. Skis like the salomon pilots and other integrated systems have at least that much lift on them, which has become nearly a standard on new skis. If you wanted to take for example a volkl G3 and mount an epb race plate on it and then mount a marker piston binding that has the extra lift built into it on top of the epb plate, go for it, it sounds like the setup would be a blast. My dad has fischer rc4 sc's with the booster plate on them, and he has a salomon s850 AXE+ binding ont op of that, putting him around 66 or so mm off the snow. The extra height makes for a wonderful carving ski, but a little sketchy in powder im guessing. So it is really your call as to how much lift you have on your skis. the waist size helps the ski when turning but dont buy the statement that it needs no extra lift because of the waist size, thats rediculous. My GS skis have a 66mm waist and still have the standard 55mm of lift.
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 

Base plate question?

The new system skis have an integrated binding with a fixed booth height over the snow surface. In the shop they told me since the new expert skis are wider, about 70mm, the extra height is not needed anymore.

IMHO it is of major importance but the guy behind the counter : told me I was the third guy to ask this same stupid question and none of the other two knew anything about skiing.

Is the extra base plate passed into history or just not needed on all mountain skis nomore?

post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Greg - I just measured the lift of my old Olins and with the base plate and the marker binding from the bottom of the ski right under my heal it measures up to 56mm. On the Crossmax 10's its only 47mm. All I can tell you is that 9mm makes a big difference. Like your skipoles are suddenly too long or too short

Take a look at this site: http://www.skyhoy.com/e/ravepro_detail.asp

Standard height off the ski surface is 41mm witch will give you a 70mm lift off the snow. More my style. Luckily there are options out there. Greg aske your father what he thinks off 70mm in powder!

post #7 of 20
Hi TDK--I'm with the others--that salesperson was clueless. Lift plates serve at least three purposes, only one of which is also adddressed by wider skis.

Lift plates make it easier to tip and hold your skis on edge, regardless of how wide or narrow they are. When you press down on your edge, the force that applies to your edge tends to fight your edging effort--it tries to flatten the ski, to reduce its edge angle. A lift plate reduces this torque, making it easier to keep your ski sufficiently edged. Indeed, the wider the ski, the more difficult it is to hold it on edge, and the more the lift plate helps.

Lift plates also affect the vibration and damping, as well as the stiffness, of the skis. Different plates have different effects, and more damping is not necessarily always what you want. But the width of the ski does not change this effect either!

Finally, lift plates can help minimize "boot-out." Boot-out is what happens when you tip your skis so far over that the boots hit the snow, releasing the edge just when you probably need it the most! Lifting the boot farther off the ski obviously allows you to tip the ski farther before the boot hits the ground. Since boot-out is not such an issue with wider skis, this benefit of lifts is lost on fats and mid-fats.

And lifts have downsides too. They are heavy. They can stiffen the ski under the lift. They can make the ski "slower" rolling from edge to edge. So you may well NOT need lifts on your new skis. But personally, I like a fair amount of lift on my skis, of any type. I find that the upside far outweighs the downside, for most skiing and conditions. I particularly dislike the feel of wide skis on hard snow without lift plates. I can really feel the increased effort in my ankles required to hold the wider skis on edge.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #8 of 20
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tdk6:
I play e-guitar and there is practicly nobody that has the exact same equipment and setup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree with you -
my Pensa Custom Strat was set up for me by Rudy Pensa
Robert at Godin set up my Tele Signature
I rebuilt my Tokai to my own specs
My Guild has never been adjusted, and my Taylor is perfect the way I bought it

But they all have different strings on them.

post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
Bob - Thank you for your extensive answere [img]smile.gif[/img] You are perfectly right in everything you say and you do that without stepping on anybodys toes. Good work.
The boot out issue is not entirely eliminated IMO with wider skies since carving in softer snow or if the terrain is varying a lot, causes boot out easily. I notissed that with the Crossmax 10's. Lifting the shoe off the ski a bit more would have helped. And if you are right Bob, and I know you are, lifting the boot also helpes holding in particular a wide ski on the edge. I know this also from ice hockey. The height of the blade is really critical and also limited by the roole book.

S - some nice guitars you have : I have a lot of them also but no Guild or Pensa..... yet. For a great guitar forum check out www.fenderforum.com Im tdk. BTW, this is a great ski forum. Best that I have found.

post #10 of 20
In my opinion, unless you only ski powder or the park, you want at least a 10mm lifter on a ski. I find it helps a lot with making aggressive turns on variable snow, getting the ski on edge and carving much easier. If the salesman insulted your intelligence for asking about risers/plates on midfats he deserves to be punched in the mouth, and does NOT deserve your business. I personally think integrated binding systems are a stupid marketing ploy and refuse to buy them. Interesting to see that team skiiers are not using them (except Salomon maybe).
post #11 of 20
Though integrated risers are a way for manufacturers to sell their bindings, it is also a huge benefit to the consumer. Buy a ski you like, and you don't have to worry about the binding selection. Ski performance testing and design are done with a manufacturer's own binding (if they have one) and the characteristics are maximized when the consumers use the same combo. All sponsored athletes in all events from racing to freestyle will use bindings manufactured by their ski companies (unless there is no binding/ski affiliation). Atomic, Salomon, Rossignol, Dynastar/Look, Volkl/Marker, & Head/Tyrolia are always with their systems.

Only cycling allows you to create a final product more than skiing, and those who have built a true custom bike know how much it costs over just buying a pre-assembled model.

People should be aware that skis and bindings must be used together in order to perform. Bindings from all manufacturers work similar. They hold the boots to the skis when they should, and release when they should. Why it is such a large issue with some skiers which binding they put onto their skis is inane. If you like the way a certain ski performs and it has an integrated binding system, why make a stink of it. If you don't like the way that same ski performs, move on to another model or brand, but don't discount anything out of principle.
post #12 of 20
Point taken BetaR, but I think the main gripe here is a lack of choice. There is a point in the very near future when you are going to be forced to use a particular brand of binding when you buy a brand of ski. That would be fine if all bindings performed equally, but we all know they don't.

I wouldn't get anything with Tyrolia if you paid me, and have grave reservations about Marker and Atomic, all these examples from past experience with breaking/poorly performing bindings.

p.s. your quiver is enought to make a grown man quiver. My:

Volkl P50 RC Energy (with Markers!)
Kastle GS Carvemachine
Salomon 1S Prolink (now there is a great ski)
Salomon X-Scream Series

quiver looks limp in comparison.
post #13 of 20
p.s. I was actually referring to Heluva's quiver. :
post #14 of 20
I dont know how well my dad's fischer rc4 sc's will work in powder being that they are only 161cm long and 63mm in the waist, and being that we ski in the east we dont get many powder days... especially this season!! they rock on groomed and hardpack. I have skied them in loose snow and they skied fairly well, but did seem a little sketchy much like my tpowers did last season... although i do not think that it was because of the lift on them. alot of people that i see racing this season have a regular race lifter and then a plated binding on top of that. some of them i would like to question whether it is legal or not, because im certain they are at least 5 - 10mm over the 55mm regulation. In my opinion there is no reason to go over 60mm or so, unless you are constantly booting out. I dont usually have a problem with my 55mm skis, the screams are wide enough for most carving, but sometimes boot out, and my nordicas are hard to keep on my feet because of that stupid multidirection release on the s711...

As far as my own skis are considered, i have thought about adding 10mm lifters under my current race plates. I would keep the FIS lifters incase someone complained while i was racing, but the extra lift is very beneficial in the race course - especially GS.

tdk6 - what setup are you looking at putting on your skis? In other words what kind of plate and what kinda of binding? That surprises me about the crossmax 10 only having 47mm... is that measurement from the bottom of the ski?? Although it does make sense since my xscreams are 32mm plus however thick the ski is, which makes it come out about the same in guessing. Well i will write more later possibly but i have to go to class now, AND ITS SNOWING!!

Later all
post #15 of 20
Anyone tried the Salomon 2V RC (Race Carve). Just saw it on their site and was interested in opinions? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #16 of 20
I dont think that it has been marketed very well, i have not seen or heard much about the ski. It looks to be the same shape as the 2V that was a stock GS ski 3 seasons ago. That ski never made it to the shelf for consumers to buy, but it was the same shape and similar design to the superaxe 2V. My guess is that the equipe 10 RC is either the superaxe 2v (possibly slightly stiffer) or a ski that is going to ski very very similarly. the only thing is, is that only volkl has the rights to use RC on their skis, meaning race carve, which is what they market their skis as. I believe that they sued rossi over the use of the race carve phrase on their 9x 10.2 gs skis. Being that it says RC on it you may not find it, and if you can get ahold of one it would probably be through a salomon rep getting the ski straight from salomon. I would sooner reccommend one of their race models from either this season or last season over that ski. (last seasons slalom ski was those same dimensions)


ps. why did you post that here??
post #17 of 20
Thanks. Sorry about the breach of etiquette. Just posting as I think (which is slowly sometimes) [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Greg - yes, the Crossmax only had that 47mm over the snow. I have my new Olin Radius Pro lying on the floor, boot in place and it measures 59mm over the snow. The binding in place is the swiss made Rave http://www.skyhoy.com/e/ravepro_detail.asp.

One thing wonders me however. Boot in place holding the ski firmly to the floor I am able to rock the boot sideways somewhat. Is this normal? Looks like the binding flexes in different places also where the binding joins the ski. Too bad I didnt check it out on the crossmax. Maybe its supposed to do this since the ski is supposed to be able to move freely underneath the boot? Or is this just something that gets cured only by the pilot system? In this case, Salomon has struck a gold mine.

post #19 of 20
The boot should not move i do not think... Mine dont, you may want to have that checked out. I dont know a lot about that kinda stuff, as i have never worked in a shop but i wouldnt want my boot doing that. It could be the binding though... is that the one that is very light weight and can free heel as well as alpine?? that might be the problem right there... i dont know really.
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
Greg - that is not the same model you are talking about but they have one like that yes! This one I have here is the alpine one. I should maybe post another thread asking this question specificly in order to get it straightened out. My old Markers does the same thing however so maybe its a feature!!??

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