or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Help get my hips forward - I think
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Help get my hips forward - I think - Page 2

post #31 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
You're drawing too many conclusions, vlad. There were a bunch of posts removed in that thread because it had a very narrow purpose. I did not do the removing, FWIW.

(vlad note: no sh*t. that went without say. it was meant only as a modicum of invoking levity form an otherwise antiseptic thread.
i wonder at the levity of your classes.)
. Personally, I don't spend any time telling skiers what they are doing except to encourage them to continue doing what they are doing well. I will use my assessment to choose some drills or tips to see if I can guide them in affecting change. But, I've got a lot to learn about all that...
(Absolutely- positive reinforcemet is, and, should always be, the order of the day in regard to ski instructing, as opposed to race-coaching. the less you tell 'em what they're doing,
and the more you show 'em the better and faster they progress.
If a picture can be said to paint a thousand words, then, it follows , a demonstration should paint the Louvre.
this is the locus of my entire ski instructing philosophy. i promise you a signed, complimentary copy of 'me book, ssh.
post #32 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
it was meant only as a modicum of invoking levity form an otherwise antiseptic thread.
It was meant to be an antiseptic thread. And that's sometimes OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
i wonder at the levity of your classes
...and this is where you jump to conclusions, again. If I have a weakness in this area, it's that I introduce too much levity, not too little. I have to be aware of my timing, etc. 'cause I'd rather be laughing. My guests certainly seem to enjoy themselves, and I am never in wont of a group. I must do one or two things right, especially since I rarely actually teach a lesson or clinic. Be mindful that your observations may simply reinforce your own pre-conceived concept of others. Pardon me but your bias is showing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
If a picture can be said to paint a thousand words, then, it follows , a demonstration should paint the Louvre.
this is the locus of my entire ski instructing philosophy. i promise you a signed, complimentary copy of 'me book, ssh.
I'll hold you to that.

FWIW, I agree 100%.

I had a guest in my clinic yesterday who is a walking ski encyclopedia. He's read Bob Barnes' book, in fact, and submitted much of it to memory. He's read Lito. He's read here (I don't know if he posts or is registered). However, his fundamental problem is that he knows too much! Or, more accurately, tries to think about all that he knows while he's actually skiing.

My focus with him yesterday was to get him out of his own way. To stop beating himself up for the little bobbles in the bumps and rather celebrate his various successes. To avoid thinking and instead to feel (thanks, Weems! The Diamond really worked well for me!). Many of the "drills" I had him do were simply to get his focus on something so that he wouldn't run his tapes. He's one of those guys that you can hear swearing at himself on every turn. Rather funny, eh? I used that as a warm up to a number of jokes during the day. The group laughed a lot. At me a lot of the time.

The other thing we did a lot was gaze out at the mountain ranges around us. The Gore was beautiful yesterday. The weather was clear. The skies Colorado azure blue. The snow squeaky and solid. It was wonderful.
post #33 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
You're drawing too many conclusions, vlad. There were a bunch of posts removed in that thread because it had a very narrow purpose. I did not do the removing, FWIW. Note that the thread is specifically there so that folks who want analysis of their movements (or to understand the movements of another) will understand who is commenting.

Movement analysis, I agree, has no meaning at lower levels except perhaps as a reminder of what kinds of drills to do in a lesson. Personally, I don't spend any time telling skiers what they are doing except to encourage them to continue doing what they are doing well. I will use my assessment to choose some drills or tips to see if I can guide them in affecting change. But, I've got a lot to learn about all that...
ssh,

It really depends on the student. I had one that demanded they know what they wer doing wrong. ALL the gory details. The why it's wrong etc....

Continually guiding them down the correct path was not enough, since they kept doing those wrong things, did not know why they were doing them and could not correct them. Every mistake required an explanation. Them: "What went wrong there? I felt (this that etc)..." And try to map my explanation onto what they felt.

Their mental model needed to include understanding unacceptable movements, their origins and the feeling of how they were triggered so they could avoid doing them. If you were to say "that's right", their eyes would turn into loaded pistols, and they'd say "Tell me exactly what's right, 'cuz I don't know what I'm doing!"

Great sense of balance, but highly right foot dominant and dyslexic! ("OK, so THIS is my outside ski?")

Imagine how screwed up the weight transfer could get if you were to say "right tip right go right" and "left tip left go left"! ( I never dared !)

Very hard, because being dyslexic, they'd somtimes explain their sensations backwards...
post #34 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
It was meant to be an antiseptic thread. And that's sometimes OK. ...and this is where you jump to conclusions, again. If I have a weakness in this area, it's that I introduce too much levity, not too little. I have to be aware of my timing, etc. 'cause I'd rather be laughing. My guests certainly seem to enjoy themselves, and I am never in wont of a group. I must do one or two things right, especially since I rarely actually teach a lesson or clinic. Be mindful that your observations may simply reinforce your own pre-conceived concept of others. Pardon me but your bias is showing... I'll hold you to that.

FWIW, I agree 100%.

I had a guest in my clinic yesterday who is a walking ski encyclopedia. He's read Bob Barnes' book, in fact, and submitted much of it to memory. He's read Lito. He's read here (I don't know if he posts or is registered). However, his fundamental problem is that he knows too much! Or, more accurately, tries to think about all that he knows while he's actually skiing.

My focus with him yesterday was to get him out of his own way. To stop beating himself up for the little bobbles in the bumps and rather celebrate his various successes. To avoid thinking and instead to feel (thanks, Weems! The Diamond really worked well for me!). Many of the "drills" I had him do were simply to get his focus on something so that he wouldn't run his tapes. He's one of those guys that you can hear swearing at himself on every turn. Rather funny, eh? I used that as a warm up to a number of jokes during the day. The group laughed a lot. At me a lot of the time.

The other thing we did a lot was gaze out at the mountain ranges around us. The Gore was beautiful yesterday. The weather was clear. The skies Colorado azure blue. The snow squeaky and solid. It was wonderful.
My bad for omitting the smileycon...VERY honestly, i was being silly.
seems the m ore of your posts i read, the more we have in common.
I know of many pupils/fellow instructors whom i've assisted in 'getting out of their own way'...I've never heard it put that way, and i'm gonna use it generously.
brilliant point.
thanks for that- i owe you a copy
post #35 of 77
BigE, that certainly makes sense, and may be the exception that proves the rule.

It's not so much that I don't explain what they need to do--and even what they are doing if I think that they need to know--but rather that I focus on what the more effective movements are and attempt to build them a replacement for any ineffective movement. I find that suggesting to a student that they stop doing something virtually never works!

As always, we give the guests what they want. But, I also endeavor to help them understand why thinking is really a less-than-useful approach to skiing when you're actually moving. Our brains can't keep up.

Clap your hands. Now, think about every movement that you need to do for each hand. Move them together rapidly while relaxing the fingers... You get the idea. Thinking is paralysis when we're doing. It's useful when we're learning and when we want a "hook" for the feelings in order to get back there at some future time.
post #36 of 77
One other concept I introduced to the clinic guests yesterday: celebrating success. Most of them (like most of us) wanted to beat themselves up for every bumble in the bumps and every missed movement. At the same time, they ignored everything that they did well. This is just the opposite of those who are at the highest level in every sport. Those folks celebrate their successes and learn from their failures, investing their emotional energy into what went well instead of what went poorly. This tends to lead to more of that positive result. We tend to move towards the target of our highest emotional responses.

So, I helped them learn to celebrate. In the case of a number of the guests, it was being able to ski bumps very slowly, in control, with both skis consistently on the snow. This was a huge leap for a number of them. For others, they were skiing like superstars, quiet in the upper-body while the legs were dancing on the terrain. But, each of them made tremendous strides, all worthy of celebration.

Celebrate your successes. Learn from mistakes and misjudgements. After all, it's about the positive emotion, isn't it?
post #37 of 77
Steve,
The next time you get a walking encyclopedia think about giving them a task that will consume their concious mind. One that works really well is to have them count out loud but backwards from one hundred, by threes, while skiing. Way back when, we used it to assess patients suffering from a head trauma. Any version that makes them think will work as effectively but try not to use twos or fives because it is too easy.
Follow that up with praise for their skiing and a short explanation about why disconnecting the left brain functions from the right brained movements works so well. An additional phrase that I like is...
"Skiing is part science and part art. While we need to understand the science, that is not enough to create the art. That happens in the other half of your brain." Andy Dockens PSIA D-team (Current)
Of course I rendered that down for skiing purposes to...
"Don't be afraid to use all of your mind."
JASP
post #38 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
One that works really well is to have them count out loud but backwards from one hundred, by threes, while skiing.
I can't even do that standing still or sitting here in my recliner! :

Thanks, JASP, that's a really good one.

post #39 of 77
Steve, It really works. It doesn't have to be that particular task but anything that requires a little cognative thinking will do. Engage the mind and let the body do the movements. Mind you for someone like Disski it probably wouldn't work right away but with practice even she could probably perform without so much thinking.
Another one that works well is to have them follow you and give you movement commands. Their skiing is forced to become a secondary focus for their brain. Ever wonder why reciprocal teaching works so well? I alway check for understanding by watching the person doing the coaching. Are they walking the walk?
JASP
post #40 of 77
I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in my response: I'm sure it works and it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the recommendation. (I really can't do that counting backwards by threes thing, but I really do understand what you mean!)
post #41 of 77
That all sounds like a good way to get a student's mind off of his skiing, but I am not sure a Thinker is going to improve that way. A Thinker needs to see the pieces and try to put them together in his mind and then in his skiing. To ask a Thinker to stop thinking about his skiing is equivalent to asking him to stop learning.
post #42 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
That all sounds like a good way to get a student's mind off of his skiing, but I am not sure a Thinker is going to improve that way. A Thinker needs to see the pieces and try to put them together in his mind and then in his skiing. To ask a Thinker to stop thinking about his skiing is equivalent to asking him to stop learning.
the point that's eluding you is that for many "thinkers", this constant analysis is the very thing which impedes their progress on the snow.
the idea is to draw them out of their melons and onto the snow, where the air is fresh and the snow is wonderful.
i've dealt with this student-type for decades...the path to success typically involves getting their head outta the game, and getting their skis IN.
as my swiss race-coach said to my verbose and analytical ass, when I was 8 years old, long before Nike was born:

"Chust DOOO ET!"

post #43 of 77
Jake75, Awareness of the problem alone is instructive. Vlad and ssh are right, keep your skis in contact with the snow/terrain features, and your body will stack up naturally. The other thing is to MOVE continuously.

An exercise for bumps I find helpful is to ski them very very slowly so your body can learn without panic response throwing it into default mode. Then dial up the speed incrementally.
post #44 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo

An exercise for bumps I find helpful is to ski them very very slowly so your body can learn without panic response throwing it into default mode. Then dial up the speed incrementally.
i like this approach with most skiing/snowboarding exercises.
many years ago, i'd set up a nice little slalom training course for the instructors at our school (typical for me).
instructors were blasting through like crazy, all gusto at the top, and typically missing my changeups i'd put in.
barking bear jonah d., snowboard manger at the time (and a fine, animated one at that!)
approached the course with tenuous, demonstrative, slow, turns, almost as if he'd never seen a gate before in his life.
he took it extra slow, made every gate, and hit the lift. next two runs, he did the same thing, intentionally going 5 time slower than anyone else.
by his 4th or 5th run, he was 'sticking' the course, continuing his 'make every gate' locus, while turning in FAR faster times than all the other 'gate bangers'.
slow, demonstrative self-instrution yields topnotch reluts.
post #45 of 77
I am talking about Thinking while skiing. Thinkers are always thinking about skiing and its "pieces" while they ski. I hear instructors continually tell Thinkers to "just go skiing"; it does not work. Thinkers must ski with a "focus" to learn. I am convinced that most Examiners are Feeler/Doers and only give lip service to their understanding of the other types of learners.
post #46 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
I am talking about Thinking while skiing. Thinkers are always thinking about skiing and its "pieces" while they ski. I hear instructors continually tell Thinkers to "just go skiing"; it does not work. Thinkers must ski with a "focus" to learn. I am convinced that most Examiners are Feeler/Doers and only give lip service to their understanding of the other types of learners.
the worst teachers are those who assume all people learn the way they themselves learn(ed).
post #47 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
I am talking about Thinking while skiing. Thinkers are always thinking about skiing and its "pieces" while they ski. I hear instructors continually tell Thinkers to "just go skiing"; it does not work. Thinkers must ski with a "focus" to learn.
Blizzard, I don't think that we disagree. The "focus", however, needs to be something that occupies their mind in a positive way, and does so sufficiently to largely get them out of their own way.

For example, my "thinker" this week was trying to think about everything he needed to do in every turn: back pedal with my feet, reach with my pole, keep my body downhill, turn my femurs, tip my feet, ad infinitum. I think we all agree that this is counter-productive.

So, what I did was to give him a single focus for each section of the trail that we skied, sometimes a focus that was primarily to get his mind off of all those other things. I think at times we can do this entirely so that the student can see how well they can ski without thinking about it.
post #48 of 77

The mantra

I like the notion of just repeating one thought - over and over.

Like "flex the ankles/flextheankles....". That stops all the rest of the noise.... Or "open the hip/oprn the hip", "plant at flat"...... etc....
post #49 of 77
SSH, yes, we do agree. I understand what you are saying now, only one focus at time, but it should be a skiing focus. That makes sense. Its when I hear "don't think, just ski" that I have a problem with the coach.

By the way, I am lurking here every day and enjoy your posts.
post #50 of 77
Blizz and Unc,
Please take my suggestions in context. We are talking about a mental focus that impedes a student's progress and their ability to learn movements that will take them to the next level.
Like an MA we need to identify how our students perceive their skiing. (see the Guest Centered Teaching Model for more details about motivation and understanding). Helping them develop a fuller understanding of what it takes to perform at a higher level is really what we are talking about here.
Usually these students have way too much "mental" focus and not enough "movement" focus. Even if their native learning style is "thinker" they still need to move past that if they expect to raise their performance level.
The bottom line is, can they do the movements? Do they use them in appropriate situations? (Do they match their tactics to the terrain?) Are they conciously competent as they ski? Whatever you want to call it, it means learning what to do with your mind, as well as what to do with your body.
In conclusion, I want to re-state this clearly.
Just like a skills bias, an inappropriate mental focus (bias) can limit a student's performance. For some it causes them to choke, while for others they have a non-stop narrative going on every time they ski. Usually this narrative is very subjective and often very negative. So learning to "turn down the volume" and trust yourself to perform is only learning a more balanced mental attitude and approach.

So please stop suggesting I said anything about turning your brain off while you ski.
JASP
post #51 of 77
Blizz,
Is it possible the examiners you "dissed" understand teaching the sport very well. Getting a student to make permanent changes in their skiing involves a lot more than sharing theories, or just movements. If they are teaching differently than you are, shouldn't that tell you something?
post #52 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Steve, It really works. It doesn't have to be that particular task but anything that requires a little cognative thinking will do. Engage the mind and let the body do the movements. Mind you for someone like Disski it probably wouldn't work right away but with practice even she could probably perform without so much thinking.

yep stuff like that works badly with me.... I KNOW you are trying to distract me so i start to wonder what about... etc etc etc... ie it achieves the opposite of what you wanted - i analyse HARDER.....

What works best is a technique taught by my fencing coach.... you concentrate really hard on the ONE thing you want to do (in fencing usually a defence for a certain situation or a planned attack to take advantage of an opponents weakness).... after having this clear picture in your head you simply "put it away"....

then go do it... the body will use the picture you have set it when it is suitable (hint pick the RIGHT task to focus on... sort of handy)
post #53 of 77
disski... clearly the coach needs to assess which approach might work. One will work for some, another for others.
post #54 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Usuallly these students have way too much "mental" focus and not enough "movement" focus. Even if their native learning style is "thinker" they still need to move past that if they expect to raise their performance level.
The bottom line is, can they do the movements?
Correct, but it's not can they DO it, it's can they FEEL it.

IMO, thinkers should be taught as FEELERS so that they can begin to really experience the fruits of their labour. Instructions like "Remain supple" demand that they pay attention to their body. "Feel centered" by hopping through a few turns. But not "increase edge angle".

IMO, instructions should focus on feeling the effect of movement on the CM. How successful do you think you shall be if you say "Drag yourself over your feet by reaching far downhill with the pole" to a pure thinker that has not learned to sense their CM/Balance point?
post #55 of 77
i think that the majority of these pupils and instructors would gain much from pre-instruction masturbation. y'alll have to chill. it's only skiing, it's not pulitzer-prize contention analytical thought.
post #56 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad
i think that the majority of these pupils and instructors would gain much from pre-instruction masturbation. y'alll have to chill. it's only skiing, it's not pulitzer-prize contention analytical thought.

haven't tried that - but about 2 drinks works wonders.... my personal preference - kafi lutz
post #57 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Correct, but it's not can they DO it, it's can they FEEL it.

IMO, thinkers should be taught as FEELERS so that they can begin to really experience the fruits of their labour. Instructions like "Remain supple" demand that they pay attention to their body. "Feel centered" by hopping through a few turns. But not "increase edge angle".

IMO, instructions should focus on feeling the effect of movement on the CM. How successful do you think you shall be if you say "Drag yourself over your feet by reaching far downhill with the pole" to a pure thinker that has not learned to sense their CM/Balance point?


I do best with instructions like "try to keep the pressure on the snow even through the turn" (no big push into it)..... BUT I need to understand FIRST - so I can be prepared to let go.... I don't need a full physics lesson - just what is needed & why & a direction for my focus....
post #58 of 77
[quote=disski
I do best with instructions like "try to keep the pressure on the snow even through the turn" (no big push into it)..... BUT I need to understand FIRST - so I can be prepared to let go.... I don't need a full physics lesson - just what is needed & why & a direction for my focus....[/quote]

NICE point, and very simply put.


post #59 of 77
Nice post Disski.
That is exactly what I mean about moving past the theories. To reach the next level it is important that you are willfully invested in the performance aspect. To be conciously competent you need to know what you are doing and you need to actually do it. When "doing it" is the primary focus you transcend the all the mental constipation.
post #60 of 77
he said 'doing it'.....
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Help get my hips forward - I think