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Bad twisting fall this weekend at Sugarbush...should I have bindings checked?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Had a bad fall this weekend at Sugarbush, VT. Not high speed but a forward twisting fall on an intermediate moguled run that almost resulted in a broken right lower leg and DID result in a 29 stitch gash to that lower leg. The binding thankfully released at the last second (felt like my leg was about to break) and the ski unfortunately cut my shin and calf to the bone!

After a serious fall like this do you normally take the skis to the shop to do a "once over" on the binding? Not saying they did anything wrong just to see if any damage ocurred. The ski is Atomic Izor 9.7 with the Neox 4.12 binding. Both three weeks old.

Also is this generally how bindings should release? At the last possible second to avoid injuries? I know you don't want the ski to release prematurely but at the last second seemed to close for comfort IMHO. My lower leg felt like it was about to snap (I could actually feel the bone begin to flex) and then the binding released. I also heard this is the most dangerous type of fall...forward and twisting. I guess I should be thankful I had new bindings, who knows if my old Atomic Device 4.12 would have reacted as well.

BTW I am 6' 210# with a DIN of 7. Level II skier, I consider 7/8 advanced intermediate mostly on piste.

Thanks,

Marc
post #2 of 18
At 210, I would have thought you would be on a higher setting. I have Atomic Race614 bindings set on 10, and I'm 140lbs. It could have just been the way you feel and the angle that your foot was at vs the angle/direction of force. I suppose you could bring the bindings in to check to see if they are properly working and if needed lower it a few.
post #3 of 18
Camhabib, weight, height, boot sole length and skier type, are all inputs to deciding the right DIN. None of us have enough infomation here to judge whether this setting was right, and its way wrong to go comparing my DIN to your DIN.

gores, have a release check done. The condition of your boot sole can affect releases. Also, select DIN for a Type II skier, not Type III. At Type III din settings a slow twisting fall may not release. It takes a shock impact to release the ski. No need to over-rate yourself for the purposes of setting the bindings. Its easier to tighten a setting for a pre-release, than to mend a broken leg or injured ligament. A Type III skier is assumed to be moving fast and is selecting less safety margin to prevent releases.
post #4 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by camhabib
At 210, I would have thought you would be on a higher setting. I have Atomic Race614 bindings set on 10, and I'm 140lbs. It could have just been the way you feel and the angle that your foot was at vs the angle/direction of force. I suppose you could bring the bindings in to check to see if they are properly working and if needed lower it a few.
This is why torque testing is a science and not an art. weight (and height to a small extent). skier type and boot length go into setting the DIN. The longer the boot length, the lower the DIN.

A slow forward twisting fall is one of the falls that can confuse a binding, there is downward and lateral pressure and the binding can be unsure of where that pressure should go.
post #5 of 18
I have seen bindings in the lodge, after a fall such as yours.
Drinking heavily, confused and shaken, no longer sure of their
ability to release when needed. Poor things.
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by John J
I have seen bindings in the lodge, after a fall such as yours.
Drinking heavily, confused and shaken, no longer sure of their
ability to release when needed. Poor things.
While I've found this to be true with German & Austrian bindings I don't find it to be true for French bindings. As with all things French, they blame the problem on the English or Yankees operators ignoring any shortcomings of their own.
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
I have a large boot (332 mm sole length) and I did rate myself a type II skier. The ski shop suggested a DIN of 6 and since my last bindings were an 8 I asked them to set it at 7. I had to sign a waiver and off I went.

Never had any issues at 8 and since the binding did release when it was supposed to I guess I am OK with 7.

My big question was does a bad fall affect bindings or do they keep on ticking (nationality of the binding notwithstanding!)?
post #8 of 18
I had a foward twisting fall with my bindings at between 7 - 8; almost snapped my leg - and super sore for three weeks (scared to death I re-ripped my achilles). The twisting fall ended up rotating the front binding by 90 degrees (so it was perpendicular to the ski base); thefront released. The rear did not release. I'm a type II, but 30.5 size boots. Your thread just got me to drop them off for a check. The guy in the shop said he's only seen one other case where the Look Pivot fronts rotated a full 90 degrees.

the only thing I can think is twisting your bindings might get dirt/gunk into them, which might impact their effectiveness. Worth getting them checked.

Don't forget weight bearing activities like skiing increase bone density and strength.

david
post #9 of 18
Releases do not affect the binding in any way that affect future performance. They should be capable of hundreds of releases without affecting the settings. Of course if you have to pick the toe piece off the snow after blowing it out of the ski, you may have a problem.:
post #10 of 18
ok, so I'm a bit confused. With my (look/rossi pivot, NOT fks) bindings on 8.5 or 9, just leaning all the way forward into my boots (I'm 175#, 6'), I cause the heel piece to lift slightly. with the bindings on 7, I can lean forward and statically push enough to release the bindings.

This (anecdotal) evidence makes me think that something else is going on with the ski/binding interface in a forward twisting falls after hearing several of your experiences in exactly that situation. Could the binding distance be compressed in a forward twisting fall (toe piece pushed backwards, essentially increasing forward pressure?) if so, could there simply be extra friction in the heelpiece which does not allow the heel to release?

I just can't imagine a scenario with a 210# person with Dins of 7 (even with a big boot) almost breaking their leg without the heelpiece releasing. What else is happening to prevent release?

alternatively, maybe I'm just a lucky bastard...
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by gores95
I have a large boot (332 mm sole length) and I did rate myself a type II skier. The ski shop suggested a DIN of 6 and since my last bindings were an 8 I asked them to set it at 7. I had to sign a waiver and off I went.

Never had any issues at 8 and since the binding did release when it was supposed to I guess I am OK with 7.

My big question was does a bad fall affect bindings or do they keep on ticking (nationality of the binding notwithstanding!)?
Personally, I'd trust the ski shop and go with the DIN of 6. They had all the info to calculate properly. Give it a try. You could always set the bindings back if needed. As a type II skier, which is what I am, safety should be paramount. That fall sounds like a hairy experience. Glad to hear you didn't break anything.
post #12 of 18
Gores95, humor aside (for a sec), I suspect
that most of us have had at least one situation
where bindings did not release or released very
"late". And I would not be surprised that
alot of those situations were at slower speeds.
So it is always good to maintain good stance and
balance, even at those times we don't feel
anything damaging could happen.
That said, I am surprised that those Atomic
bindings were not barking at you to "get in
balance"; "lazy hands! lazy hands!:
Where the French bindings would be shrugging,
"you want me to go away? Fine".
post #13 of 18
Guess the big theme nowadays is to not hinder the ski's flex or edge control, to hell with knees. Atomic designs a binding from scratch that has a 50 year old heel design, while Look gives up on its pivot that helped get your boot out a touch earlier, just as Marker did earlier with the MRR.

Funny thing is that most bindings are not used by ex-racers who dominate these pages, but intermediates who need all the safety they can get. Instead of discussions about how high you like to crank your DIN to stay in, maybe you all should be pressuring reps/manufacturers to get off their behinds about designing a safer heel...
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by John J
... I am surprised that those Atomic
bindings were not barking at you to "get in
balance"; "lazy hands! lazy hands!:
Where the French bindings would be shrugging,
"you want me to go away? Fine".
I dunno ... I recently tore my ACL thanks to a very slow twisting fall on Looks didn't release at all. They were set for Type II and recently checked.

I could've used a little more ... insouciance ... je ne sais quoi ... from my little French friends.
post #15 of 18
Here's a chart. I've never worked on ski's, so I'm not saying right or wrong(from a professional pov) but it seems 6 would be correct.
http://www.skiernet.com/ski-gear-guide.html
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by gores95
I have a large boot (332 mm sole length) and I did rate myself a type II skier. The ski shop suggested a DIN of 6 and since my last bindings were an 8 I asked them to set it at 7. I had to sign a waiver and off I went.

Never had any issues at 8 and since the binding did release when it was supposed to I guess I am OK with 7.

My big question was does a bad fall affect bindings or do they keep on ticking (nationality of the binding notwithstanding!)?
You should definately go with the shops recommendation, especially since you are concerned that you released later than you should have.
post #17 of 18
I would also echo the recommendation to move back to the shops suggested setting of 6. If you are a type II skier, I don't think you'll be in a situation that would require exceeding the suggested DIN (such as world cup racing or extreme exposure skiing, to name just two, certainly not the whole list). I'd have the bindings checked to be sure they are releasing as required, move to the proper DIN, and consider myself lucky.
post #18 of 18
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